507 - "Flicker"

Director: Michael Goi
Writer: Crystal Liu

Comments

  • John_NadaJohn_Nada California
    edited November 2015
    The best line of the night goes to Kathy Bates " I could not pick my own butthole out of a line up".
    Frakkin TElisaTaraC73
  • Frakkin TFrakkin T Currently Offline
    Who played Natasha? I thought it was Alexandra Daddario but I know that's not right and IMDB is no help. 

    @Heff I don't think this episode 100% proved you wrong, but if John does turn out to be TCK then Ryan Murphy will have some 'splainin' to do. Why would the vampire girl go along with his delusion and then just up and kill herself?

    jfitz1989
  • edited November 2015
    @FrakkinT I think she's implying that John is a different person as the killer, like a jeckle and Hyde thing, after the episode I'm all but sure John is the killer, I got the feeling when he walked in she knew him, Just the way she was saying "I like you you're not like him" when John says take me to him he says we have to go home to the Cortez then before she killed herself she asked "will you kill him?" Johns says if I have to then wren replies "I really like you, I hate to see it end" the look on her face and the the things she says puts me on the John=TCK theory, won't need explaining for me I'm pleasantly suprised how well this season is shaping together... As for her killing herself she made comments about not wanting to be young anymore and not wanting to feed, I feel like she was getting off the eternal life ride as soon as she could... I'm curious if you feel any different if you watch Johns and wrens convo going in with the John is the TCK theory if you'll get those vibes I did, let me know if you do and if it changes your opinion after

    ElisaNikkiPTaraC73
  • Frakkin TFrakkin T Currently Offline
    Well Heff has been telling the "John is TCK" for a while so I definitely had that in my head as I was watching, and I guess it was pretty ambiguous, but the dialogue was so obviously opaque that it felt wrong if he does turn out to he the killer. IDK though, I was pretty stoned when I saw it so maybe on second viewing...
    TaraC73
  • Haha it's definitely becoming more and more in your face with johns craziness and making the jeckle,Hyde/John,TCK seem obvious I wouldn't be surprised if Murphy attempted a twist on the twist I just hope of that's the case it makes sense with the story, the food the is the next episode is called the Ten Commandment Killer... Bad news it doesn't air for two weeks
  • Either way this season seems to be ramping up as opposed to last season where it felt like it got slower and slower with each passing episode, gaga for Lange trade is paying off and Evan Peters isn't amazing but def not bad, just by not seeing him as a whiney teen/early 20s shouty tortued soul type is making him seen better
    UnderwoodElisa
  • HeffHeff Connecticut
    edited November 2015
     @Frakkin T

    I spent almost the entire episode just eating up what I see as evidence to support my theory! I think if you add what we got in this episode to the various points I've brought up before it's becoming more and more clear that he's the TCK.
    • Jon's "I'm right where I need to be" can be seen as having two meanings - a half-truth he tells to the doctor to appear submissive to treatment, and a darkly ironic second meaning "I'm a schitzo murderer."
    • The fact that the girl refused to use a name when referring to the killer, in my opinion, really seems to indicate it's Jon. She's not saying "it's you," but why would she not give any names, description or information otherwise?
    • The blackouts and uncharacteristic decisions that Jon seems to make while suffering from them seems to hint that Jon the cop and Jon the killer are two different people living in the same body. The look the girl was giving Jon and the unclear answers to his questions, especially "I like you a lot better than him" (read: this you is much nicer than the other you) and "will you kill him" (will you stop your other self's rampage?) seemed to really hit home this idea.
    • The lighting on Jon's face in the girl's cell HAD to be intentional. The shadows on his face seemed to light him in a particularly grim/brooding/scary way, and I wonder if you were to look at his face alongside images of real life psycho killers or various movie monsters/villains (like Mr Hyde) if there would be any parallel.

    In all honesty, I think it will be worth creating a separate thread to discuss J=TCK in one place. I'm going to do that.

    ElisaTaraC73
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    Yeah, I saw this episode as almost over the top proof that John is the TCK.  Cecily and I were both like, "damn, everyone is going to see this coming," where as before, had it worked out that John is the TCK, it would have been a pretty mindblowing reveal.

    It's funny how people, even on the same wavelength, can walk away from an episode with totally different interpretations. 
    John_NadaElisaNikkiPKingKobra
  • HeffHeff Connecticut

    Yeah, I saw this episode as almost over the top proof that John is the TCK.  Cecily and I were both like, "damn, everyone is going to see this coming," where as before, had it worked out that John is the TCK, it would have been a pretty mindblowing reveal.


    It's funny how people, even on the same wavelength, can walk away from an episode with totally different interpretations. 
    The Bald Move community's been discussing J=TCK since episode 3, and more people than just myself have presented some solid evidence which seems to point to it. If it turns out to be true, I think we've collectively done well to figure it out early on.
    Elisa
  • Frakkin TFrakkin T Currently Offline
    I guess you guys are right. However it does seem like they were setting up a showdown between John and TCK, and I am kinda more interested in the crazy-as-fuck cop going after a crazy-as-fuck serial killer than I am in John somehow confronting his own demons and finding out he is the killer. Also, if the entire audience knows he is TCK before he does, where's the reveal? After last night, it will surprise no one and fall flat. The surprising thing at this point would be if the killer were someone else. 
    John_Nada
  • amyja89amyja89 Oxford, England
    The whole Rudolph Valentino/Gaga subplot was so out of left field that I don't really know what to say! Sure, with Finn Wittrock playing him we got to see the origin of The Countess's 'type', but did we really need nearly a whole episode for it?

    I'm also a little confused as to the continuity of the 'glampire' rules that were set out early on. You are supposed to be the best, most beautiful version of yourself at the point of turning, yet Kathy Bates is still rocking a frumpy mom look? She's no Angela Bassett but she could definitely look more glamorous than she currently does. Same goes for Alex too. And Gaga said that just because you have the 'blood virus', you can still die so you have to be careful, is starvation and dehydration not included in that because surely Valentino and Natacha wouldn't have been able to sustain themselves for all those years on a few rats that were sealed in with them?
    TaraC73
  • John_NadaJohn_Nada California
    edited November 2015
    The scenes with Jon and his further pursuit of the TCK where actually done rather well.  I actually really got into it this story line.  The dinner scene with March and the Countess another well written scene.

    I think the following ideas were kind of cool but executed really poorly.  The line delivery and the acting were pretty horrible IMHO but I do love that they continue to tie in Hollywood. 

    Valentino and the F. W Mumau, Nosferatu movie was good.  It reminded me of Shadow of the Vampire with Dafoe and Malkovich. 

    Also the series is using the Hollywood Forever cemetery a lot.  It was used at he opening for the screening of Nosferatu.  They do screen movies there I have gone to several of them.  AMC also had the Breaking Bad farewell screening there too.

    Anyway Rudolph Valentino is buried @ the Hollywood Forever cemetery although the grave site the show is using is not the actual one.  Also I think the the show made reference to Peter Finch being a double, or something like that, for Valentino well the actor Peter Finch is interned adjacent to Valentino at the cemetery.

    The Hollywood Forever cemetery was closed for some time until it was purchased and revitalized.  My family and I have visited it several times during its revitalization and the new owners  have done a pretty good job restoring it.  Here is a list of just some of the individuals who are buried there

    Rudolph Valentino
    Douglas Fairbanks
    Mickey Rooney
    Benjamin "Bugsy" Seigel
    Dee Dee Ramone

    So I have probably wasted enough of everyone's time if you are interested you can look further here http://www.hollywoodforever.com/

    Also when we the workers first broke into the walled of room it reminded me of Interview with a vampire maybe?  How the Vampire Lestat was surviving off of rats.

    Fully regenerated Valentino and Natacha looked just like the Countess and Donovan in the first episode as they strolled through the hotel on their way out to the screening of Nosferatu at the Hollywood forever Cemetery were they lured the couple back to the Cortez.    
      

          
      
     
    UnderwoodElisa
  • JJ_BordenJJ_Borden Alabama
    edited November 2015
    Frakkin T said:

    Who played Natasha? I thought it was Alexandra Daddario but I know that's not right and IMDB is no help. 



    </block quote

    I'm fairly certain that is Alexandra Daddario. It's not listed on her IMDB, but all the reviews I read credit her.

    Elisa
  • MichelleMichelle California
    edited November 2015
    I usually tend to fangirl over these episodes rather than analyze them in any sort of depth, maybe throwing in a few good observations every now and again, so it's not unusual for me to say, contrary to what it seems like the consensus is on this episode:  I loved it.  Maybe it's partly due to my love of all things art deco (which is why I was particularly drawn to this season in the first place) or my love of old Hollywood, but I really got into the Valentino/Natacha/Gaga/March storyline. When I saw that Finn Wittrock was playing Valentino, I audibly proclaimed "get the fuck outta here!".  And it made sense then why Gaga was so drawn to Tristan during the fashion show when she first saw him.  I say that to ask this:  Is it possible that Tristan is Valentino reincarnated in some way?  When Valentino and Natacha eventually died (I think they died?) after they were bricked in, is it possible that Valentino's soul was rebirthed in Tristan when Tristan was born?  That scene when Gaga is intently staring at him, and they lock eyes for a moment, and she says there is something familiar about him, that she can smell his blood and it smells like copper - totally makes sense, if she is recognizing the soul of Valentino in him.  But then Valentino and Natacha were regenerated at the end... so I dunno.   Ideas?    Oh, also, we now know it was Valentino who turned Elizabeth.

    Totally on board with the John as TCK theory.  It adds up.  Well done, @Heff .   If I'm not mistaken, it appears in the preview for next week's episode as though there will be another murder.  Maybe we'll see John as the murderer then.

    Still loving the music choices for this show.   That Cure song is from one of my favorite albums of theirs.  I really hope they put out a soundtrack CD for this season.
    John_NadaFrakkin TElisaUnderwood
  • MichelleMichelle California
    edited November 2015
    A few notable facts about this episode:

    **Rudolph Valentino was, in real life, married to an actress named
    Winifred Shaughnessy, who was born in Salt Lake City, Utah, and later
    changed her name to Natacha Rambova after studying Russian ballet in New
    York.  They married in 1923 and divorced in 1925.  Her stepfather's last name was Hudnut, therefore giving her the name Winifred Hudnut, which was the name the three women discuss when visiting Valentino's burial site.

    **There really
    was a Garden of Allah (actually spelled with an 'h' at the end) in Los
    Angeles, which was a 2 1/2 acre lot of villas for rent.  Valentino was a
    well known resident from time to time.  The set design of the bungalow
    interior in the show was modeled after what they really looked like -
    see here

    From Wikipedia:  "The Garden of Allah was a famous hotel in Hollywood, California, at 8152 Sunset Boulevard between Crescent Heights and Havenhurst, at the east end of the Sunset Strip. It was originally a 2.5 acre estate called Hayvenhurst that was built in 1913 by real estate developer William H. Hay as his private residence. Alla Nazimova
    acquired the property in 1918 and then, in 1926, converted it into a
    residential hotel by adding 25 villas around the residence. The hotel
    opened in January 1927 as the Garden of Alla Hotel (no final "h" on
    Alla). By 1930, new owners had changed the name to the Garden of Allah
    Hotel. Over the next two decades, the property went through a succession
    of owners, the last of whom was Bart Lytton, owner of Lytton Savings & Loan, who demolished the hotel in 1959 and replaced it with his bank's main branch."

    So, Ryan Murphy played with the timeline a bit for this main storyline - he has Gaga visiting Valentino in 1925, but the buildings weren't available for rent until at least a year later. Meh, I guess it worked with the plot.  We know Gaga went to the Murder House in 1925 to have an abortion, and she was married to March at the time.

    **The actress who played Natacha, Valentino's wife, was costumed and styled to look like the real person.  Wikipedia states that she was, in fact, played by Alexandria Daddario.

    **Gaga's character's storyline was fashioned after that of actress Pola Negri and was styled after her, down to the curlycue of hair on her cheek.  Negri met Valentino at a costume party in 1925 and they were lovers until his death in 1926.  She caused quite the scene at his funeral when she "fainted" several times.  The media claimed it was a publicity stunt.  Apparently for the rest of her life, she claimed he was the greatest love of her life. 

    **When Valentino passed away, there were media reports/claims that the body in his coffin was not him.  These were consistently denied by the funeral home.  The 'stunt double' rumors were true.

    **The 'woman in black' story is true.  From Wikipedia:  "Over the years, a "woman in black" carrying a red rose has come to mourn
    at Valentino's grave, usually on the anniversary of his death. Several
    myths surround the woman, though it seems the first woman in black was
    actually a publicity stunt cooked up by press agent Russel Birdwell in
    1928. A woman named Ditra Flame claimed to be the original "woman in
    black", although she was aged only 14 at the time of Valentino's death. Several copycats have followed over the years. Although originally a PR stunt, it has become a tradition. The current
    "woman in black" is motion picture historian Karie Bible. This myth of
    "woman in black" was also a source of inspiration for the song Long Black Veil."

    **F.W. Murnau really was a real person, and he did direct Nosferatu.  I thought it was an interesting choice to have him be the one who turns Valentino.


    Frakkin TElisaUnderwoodNikkiP
  • Frakkin TFrakkin T Currently Offline
    I don't want to give the wrong impression because I loved the episode. John's was the B story and it was actually pretty good, even if it makes me worry for the next episode. I thought the Gaga and Dandy story was awesome. It was an engaging story and it set up a major showdown between all these different players. I like Dandy much better as the movie star OG glampire; Tristan wasn't menacing enough. To answer your question, @Michelle I don't think Tristan is Valentino reincarnated so much as a distant descendant who is eerily identical. Kinda like Winona Ryder in Dracula.
    Elisa
  • ElisaElisa Los Angeles
    I loved this story too.  The old Hollywood take on glampires was clever and added a lot of background and motivation to some of Gaga's and Marsh's actions previously.  I loved how they pulled in all the mystery and backstories of Valentino into this episode.

    The John/TCK secondary story was done very well too.  

    This is turning out to be such a great season.
    TaraC73
  • I think they're making it too obvious that Jon is the TCK...but we are closing in on the finale and with 3 episodes left that may not be enough time to introduce a significant twist to make up for this obviousness.

    Also love the soundtrack for this season - Lullaby is one of my favorite Cure songs and from the first episode when they rocked out She Wants Revenge they've nailed it with the soundtrack. I see that the penultimate episode is also titled She Wants Revenge :)

    I first heard that song in the movie The Number 23. Downloaded it and now it's a regular in my playlist rotation. 

    Where was Mare Winningham by the way? I saw her name in the credits but didn't see her. I also thought I did not see Finn Whittrock, but seriously kept looking at Valentino like "That eyebrow tough" "No that's not him" "Wait, look from this angle" "Maybe it is" "No it can't be" - and since AHS has ONLY booked actors  this season that look exactly alike, I figured this was just another white actor with brown hair and blue eyes. 
    Elisa
  • HeffHeff Connecticut
    edited November 2015
    Miss Evers showed up in the dinner scene; she was lighting candles and complaining that Elizabeth was late for dinner. March then ordered her out of the room "You should be elsewhere" when Elizabeth entered.

    Not much to her appearance this episode, and I'm curious whether she has much of a part to play for the rest of the season.

    Spoiler alert below in case you don't watch the "next week on" stuff:
    I think the Jon/Sally parts of this next episode are going to be really relevant. She takes him to the doorway of a room and before opening it he asks "Is the killer in this room?" and Sally's response is "This room has answers." Maybe evidence of J=TCK? A room he has used during his blackouts to stage the killings? Murder weapons or trophies taken from the attacks?

    Elisa
  • UnderwoodUnderwood Philadelphia, PA
    @Tonya We actually have 6 episodes left, The final three will air in January after like a three week break around x-mas.
    ElisaTonya
  • ElisaElisa Los Angeles
    Looks like Miss Evers was jealous of Elizabeth and Marsch
    Underwood
  • HeffHeff Connecticut
    edited November 2015
    @A_Ron_Hubbard "But you can't do that."

    @Cecily "Why not?"

    @A_Ron_Hubbard ; "Huh..."

    @Jim needs to take lessons on how to win arguments against ARon.
    Underwood
  • UnderwoodUnderwood Philadelphia, PA
    My favorite part of the podcast

    @Cecily -  So define being a big fan of Alexandra Daddario

    @A_Ron_Hubbard -  I liked her nudity work in True Detective

    Didn't we all A Ron, Didn't we all.






    Frakkin T
  • John_NadaJohn_Nada California
    edited November 2015
    @A_Ron_Hubbard just to update from podcast I think the show used the name Peter Finch as Valentino's body double for the AHS but in fact he was the actor who gave the "mad as hell" speach in Network. I beleive Peter Finch is interred adjacent to Valentino at Hollywood Forever cemetary. I may have not heard the name right though???
  • edited November 2015
    I think Miss Evers sees March in a maternal way and doesn't like the way the countess treats people. After all, she's just some rando actress from the midwest, not a real countess.
  • MichelleMichelle California
    edited November 2015
    John_Nada said:

    @A_Ron_Hubbard just to update from podcast I think the show used the name Peter Finch as Valentino's body double for the AHS but in fact he was the actor who gave the "mad as hell" speach in Network. I beleive Peter Finch is interred adjacent to Valentino at Hollywood Forever cemetary. I may have not heard the name right though???

    He said "George Fiske".  You can see his imdb page here.
    ElisaJohn_Nada
  • Michelle said:

    John_Nada said:

    @A_Ron_Hubbard just to update from podcast I think the show used the name Peter Finch as Valentino's body double for the AHS but in fact he was the actor who gave the "mad as hell" speach in Network. I beleive Peter Finch is interred adjacent to Valentino at Hollywood Forever cemetary. I may have not heard the name right though???

    He said "George Fiske".  You can see his imdb page here.
    Thank you for setting me straight!
  • MichelleMichelle California
    John_Nada said:



    Thank you for setting me straight!

    It wasn't that, I was just trying to help.  :)

    Who is that in your profile pic?  Is that Swayze?
  • TaraC73TaraC73 Manchester NH
    I just watched this episode today and I am in the John is the TCK camp. Although it's not going to be much of a reveal.
    Frakkin T
  • Frakkin TFrakkin T Currently Offline
    Michelle said:


    John_Nada said:



    Thank you for setting me straight!

    Who is that in your profile pic?  Is that Swayze?
    Isn't it Rowdy Roddy Piper in They Live?
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