210 - "Palindrome"

124

Comments

  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    @Drew, I mean, yeah, there's a difference.  But what does it have to do with the point I was making?  Which, broadly speaking, is Fargo has some kind of weird issue/hangup in it's depiction of a woman's place in the world.  It's says a lot of things, and then does a lot of opposite things.  I don't get it.
    Elisa
  • If anyone has something new to discuss, feel free.  I'll start.  Noah Hawley says he never intended people to understand that Hanzee was Otto's illegitimate son.  http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/12/16/fargo-12-key-answers-from-creator-noah-hawley

    I think that's an incredible statement.  I disagree with his opinion, but you know me and the whole authorial intent argument.  ;)

    This whole showrunners explaining the episode after the episode thing is something I have mixed feelings about. I can see the use in some instances, but don't like when it's a crutch for unclear writing like with Watching Dead. I like the Sopranos creator's approach of leaving the last scene of that show up to interpretation.

    That said, Otto, you ARE the father!
    DaveyMacA_Ron_HubbardElisa
  • DrewDrew indianapolis
    @A_Ron_Hubbard you basically said his point was invalid like he was making hers because people die in war too Lou, but it's not like he started the war there is a total difference between what he was saying and her trying to justify what she did in the way he did.
  • DrewDrew indianapolis
    edited December 2015
    @A_Ron_Hubbard oh and I don't want it to sound like I don't sympathize with Peggy, because I do, I just find Hanks accusation that she is crazy because she doesn't want to be a house wife to be a bigger issue than Lou shutting her down because she wants to justify her actions when I don't think Lou was shutting her down for being a woman but shutting her down because she caused a gang war that spanned multiple states.
    steph_b
  • JamesJames southern California
    So, you mentioned it in the podcast, and I'm curious about it. What are they going to prosecute Peggy for? She did and participated in and helped cover up an assortment of crimes, but what _do_they_know_about_that_they_can_pin_on_her_? There's the hit and run, but with Ed dead, there's no one who can prove she was driving the car when Rye was struck. They can't produce Rye's body (I hope) and if they could, they couldn't demonstrate that she knew about Ed "disposing of it." Can they prove the kidnapping charge? To the extent that law enforcement can recognize and/or define criminal activities involving the Blumquists I presume conspiracy is always a possibility.

    It strikes me that, short of Peggy just up and admitting to everything (a possibility I suppose) someone would really have to have a vendetta against her to get real jail time for her.
    Hunter
  • DrewDrew indianapolis
    @james didn't she admit to the stuff in her scene with Hank? Either way they have the car registered to her with Ryes blood in it. I guess they can't necessarily prove that she was driving but I would imagine they'll prosecute since Ed is dead and Ryes death was the spark for the gang war.
  • AshleyAshley Atlanta, GA

    Ashley said:

    Drew said:

    All this salt.

    Finale was great. Season was great. Second best show of the year behind The Americans season 3. Boom.

    Yeah, I guess give me some rubber boots and an umbrella and call me Morton's.



    I'm guessing we're in for another bummer of a podcast then? lol

    Will you guys be doing a season wrap-up cast, or is this it?

    This pod wasn't as "bad" as last week's. We both enjoyed the finale for what it was. Some interesting discussion on women in Fargo. Some spontaneous Bon Jovi singing happened.



    More of a recital than singing, but... I'll take it, haha.

    Definitely not as bad as last week's, and thank you. This cast was a great example of how to express a dissenting and/or negative opinion without making me feel like an asshole for liking it, lol.

    By the way, I also recommend this show to people who liked Breaking Bad, and so far, so good. In fact, I've called Fargo and The Leftovers my new BB and Mad Men - not because they're anything like their predecessors in plot or tone, but they do strike me similarly. Fargo has the pulse-pounding suspense, and The Leftovers is the emotional journey. I can imagine the audiences for those sets of shows are pretty similar.

    ZinzanElisasteph_bDaveyMacAshleyOcean
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    Ashley said:

    Ashley said:

    Drew said:

    All this salt.

    Finale was great. Season was great. Second best show of the year behind The Americans season 3. Boom.

    Yeah, I guess give me some rubber boots and an umbrella and call me Morton's.



    I'm guessing we're in for another bummer of a podcast then? lol

    Will you guys be doing a season wrap-up cast, or is this it?

    This pod wasn't as "bad" as last week's. We both enjoyed the finale for what it was. Some interesting discussion on women in Fargo. Some spontaneous Bon Jovi singing happened.

    Definitely not as bad as last week's, and thank you. This cast was a great example of how to express a dissenting and/or negative opinion without making me feel like an asshole for liking it, lol.

    Well, that's the thing.  We didn't approach the show or our coverage any differently, we just genuinely liked the finale better than the penultimate episode.  It seems a natural reaction to like opinions that reflect one's own and dislike and reject ones that don't.  See; why politics and religion are such contentious topics, haha.
    HatorianDaveyMac
  • Peggy's jail time is inconsequential at this point. But I don't think she'll end up in San Quentin. ;-)
  • AshleyAshley Atlanta, GA

    Ashley said:

    Ashley said:

    Drew said:

    All this salt.

    Finale was great. Season was great. Second best show of the year behind The Americans season 3. Boom.

    Yeah, I guess give me some rubber boots and an umbrella and call me Morton's.



    I'm guessing we're in for another bummer of a podcast then? lol

    Will you guys be doing a season wrap-up cast, or is this it?

    This pod wasn't as "bad" as last week's. We both enjoyed the finale for what it was. Some interesting discussion on women in Fargo. Some spontaneous Bon Jovi singing happened.

    Definitely not as bad as last week's, and thank you. This cast was a great example of how to express a dissenting and/or negative opinion without making me feel like an asshole for liking it, lol.

    Well, that's the thing.  We didn't approach the show or our coverage any differently, we just genuinely liked the finale better than the penultimate episode.  It seems a natural reaction to like opinions that reflect one's own and dislike and reject ones that don't.  See; why politics and religion are such contentious topics, haha.
    Hmm. I didn't get the impression that you liked the finale very much, especially based on your comments here, so I was bracing myself for something closer to last week. Maybe because Jim seemed to like it more, it felt more balanced. Also, no one said "Fuck you, man," so that probably helped, lol.
    steph_bhypergenesbDaveyMac
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    It is entirely possible we're too cavalier with the "fuck you"s, but I mean, I don't think a day goes by that we don't say fuck you / fuck off in the studio, so maybe we're just enured to it by use.  
  • steph_bsteph_b Austin
    edited December 2015
    Great point, Ashley: "This cast was a great example of how to express a dissenting and/or negative opinion without making me feel like an asshole for liking it, lol." . 

    I hadn't thought about it that way. I think that really gets to the nugget of why we cant seem to talk about contentious issues like politics or religion. Of course confirmation bias does play in but its easier to hear a dissenting opinion when it doesn't accuse those who disagree of being shit heels for having a different opinion. I'm not saying that is what the Bald Move guys do but I definitely see it a lot on different discussion forums. The whole "you just don't get it" vibe gets a little unruly. It causes the discussion to swerve from discussing the merits of the show to the intelligence of fellow viewers. Sometimes differences of opinion boil down to merely being a matter of varying taste. 
    hypergenesbDaveyMacAshleyOcean
  • There's plenty of stuff to get Peggy on. She's got a car with gangster blood in it, a smashed up basement with a dead guy holding a shotgun, and was found in a freezer with her husband shot to death which would at least require explanation. Not to mention she's told Hank and Lou pretty much everything and admitted to accidentally starting a gang war that ended in a motel full of dead cops (although that one is more on the cops than Peggy). I'm sure they've prosecuted people for less than that.
    steph_b
  • I'm assuming Peggy & Ed did sign the plea deal for being willing to help, right? Was it for reduced sentencing or for immunity? I dont remember. 
    Zinzan
  • Yea I don't remember the specifics. I don't think he got immunity but I remember him demanding something in writing. Even if they don't know about the body disposing thing they could still get hit with a gigantic list of various obstruction charges or reckless endangerment or something like that.
  • steph_b said:

    I'm assuming Peggy & Ed did sign the plea deal for being willing to help, right? Was it for reduced sentencing or for immunity? I dont remember. 

    I don't remember whether they said or not, but I assumed Ed & Peggy were promised something for risking their lives by baiting the KC mafia hook. As mentioned above, yeah, they could get her on some things, but only if someone in law enforcement really had it out for her. It doesn't seem like Lou to carry a vendetta at this point. It would do no good now, and she'll have to live with the consequences of her actions.

    A question for ya'll. I've heard a couple podcasts mention Peggy's hallucinations in the meat locker. I wasn't clear that she was actually hallucinating at all. Am I the only one that thought she was misinterpreting the vapor condensation from the freezer vents for smoke, and let her fear and imagination get the best of her?
    Elisa
  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY
    The offer was terrible: If Milligan incriminated himself on tape, then Cheney would speak to the D.A. on their behalf.  Lou told them not to accept it and to insist on being taken into custody and then insist on a lawyer.  For me, the specific evidence and charges is not the point.  Peggy will be incarcerated, either in a prison or a psychiatric hospital, for her crimes.  This is Fargo, the criminals get punished, and the good guys get a happy ending.

    Lou and Hank went above and beyond to help Peggy and Ed, and they both almost died for it.  A lot of people did die as a result.  When Peggy was trying to justify her choices, while refusing to acknowledge the consequences (including her husband's death), Lou reacted how any cop would to any criminal trying to do the same.  I'm still not quite sure why the writers deliberately framed Peggy and Lou's monologues to spark debate about feminism vs. male privilege, but it did underline the the theme of miscommunication.
    Zinzansteph_bDaveyMacelgat0
  • Agree totally with your take. Of all the criminal characters in the series, (let's not forget, she is a criminal), Peggy was the least sympathetic in my view. Not because she was clearly suffering from mental issues, but because her crazy pseudo-feminism obsessions were just so annoying and frustrating. Her pathetic attempt to claim in classic Fargo style, "I'm the victim here." Only served to underscore that point and left me feeling just as disgusted with her as Lou seemed to be when he had to remind her that people died. I'm mystified why anyone would focus on, "well she had some valid points" in light of her really terrible behaviors. Bravo to Fargo for not bowing to our modern PC "values" and trying to give her that out.

    As a side note, let's not glorify Mike Milligan or Hanze either, simply because someone might have insulted their ethnicity in the show, again these are two horrible criminal killers....

    My sympathies belong with the very brave Betsy, Lou and yes even a little bit with Ed, who like Adam was led astray by his own Eve in the form of Peggy.
  • @bizmarkiefader, Just filling in that the things Peggy can be arrested for are different from what she might be prosecuted for and then she still has to be convicted. The state might decide to knock some charges down or throw out others, especially because her mental state probably does not meet the standard for certain criminal charges. Also her partial confessions aren't taped or in writing. A police officer's word that you confessed something isn't enough to get you convicted. In some instances that's unfortunate and in others, thank goodness. I can easily see Peggy doing very little time.

  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    You guys are correct about the deal. Even plea deals offered by the prosecutor can be ignored by judges; cops promises to put in a good word with the prosecutor are of even less worth.

    Because of the fucked up state of our criminal system, plea deals are usually the best way to go, but that's only because we've collectively subscribed to this fast food concept of justice. There are literally too many human beings going through the system at any one time to give fair and speedy trials to.
  • Man, the "what can they actually pin on her" debate really picked up legs.  It's fun, but come on.  The only way Peggy skates is in a Fargo-verse where John Goodman plays a dim judge and Steve Buscemi plays a blind prosecutor who is always facing the wrong direction.
  • It's not up to the judge if it goes to trial, it's up to the jury. The judge will just be there to preside over the proceedings and give the jury instructions on what the charges mean, what the burden of proof is, what they can consider. I will say that people who aren't lawyers think these things are more straightforward than they are, which is why you should never represent yourself in court.

    When people get arrested at the end of movies it's shorthand for them going to prison, but if you've gone to law school you mentally go through which charges can be proved. The jury wasn't there to see the whole thing. If Peggy gets a state-appointed attorney, it probably will go worse for her, but if she hires her own defense (or gets a decent state attorney), there's plenty they can do for her. I won't specify what I'd argue in her defense, bc it will sound really messed up :), but there's options.
  • NikkiP said:

    It's not up to the judge if it goes to trial, it's up to the jury.

    Partially.  I'm pretty sure the judge has say in the severity of punishment.  A dim judge might give her the minimum sentence because she seems nice.  And if the prosecutor does a shit job convincing the jurors, she could walk entirely.  But again, that's a Fargo-verse scenario.  Or Texas. 

    In reality, she's toast for assaulting Ben with a weapon.  Anything else they prove is gravy.  Reddit theory, go away.
  • steph_bsteph_b Austin
    edited December 2015
    I thought judges decide sentencing except in capital cases. Then a jury decides death penalty or life.

    I suppose that would vary by state.
  • I guess I'm missing the point of whether or not Peggy goes away for a long time. Does it matter in regards to the season? Or is this just an academic exercise?


  • For me, it's academic. I really don't give a shit with respect to the story.
    NikkiP
  • @Zinzan, Once a thread goes past 50-60 comments, pretty much everything else is an academic exercise ;)
    Zinzansteph_b
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    edited December 2015
    I've never seen or read a real life story that lets someone off the hook for attempting to flee a crime scene. That's one of the biggest no-nos in the book. Which is what Peggy did. given all the evidence they have, Pretty sure she's screwed if this follows anything resembling a real life justice system.
  • Some of the palindromic touches that struck me as being quite poignant:

    Ed dying in a meat locker.
    After wrapping up Ed's death, the original soundtrack music of Fargo played.
    After all she's been through, Peggy shows in the car with Lou that it's still ultimately all about her (ironically it's Ed who's had the "actualization")
    Hanzee as the "phoenix"
    Mike using a Selectric 
    "It's all just ones and zeroes"

    PS: The Great Brain is a terrific children's book series
Sign In or Register to comment.