607 - "The Broken Man" - SPOILER FRIENDLY!!

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  • lippylippy Australia
    edited June 2016
    ghm3 said:

    The Sparrow wants Loras to relinquish his title and claim to the Tyrell estate. Why would the HS care? Would that make Margaery next in line to inherit? Or Margaery's son, if she has one? 


    If Tommen dies before producing offspring, then who is in line for the crown? Jaime, now that he is no longer Kingsguard? Kevan Lannister? If Kevan meets an untimely end, then Lancel? *gasp*

    WHERE IS GENDRY?
    @pavlovsbell The way I see it, he wants the crown to be religious zealots in order to give him behind the scenes power, starting with Tommen and Margaery. I don't see how any Lannister has a claim to the throne through anything but brute force, hence the HS sending Jaime away with his army. Tommen is the last "Baratheon" and after him, the line would go to the Tyrells, no? Except Loras gets in the way of this because he's above Margaery in the line of succession, hence the HS wanting him to relinquish his title, and why he wants Margaery and Tommen breeding like rabbits, to secure the line of puppet kings. 

    I don't see how Gendry could or would ever be legitimized.
    If Tommen dies I don't think the crown goes to Loras Tyrell, he doesn't have royal blood. He is the brother of the queen (but she is queen through marriage not blood) If Margery is pregnant she would probably sit as like a queen regent till the child comes of age to officially take the throne as it would be Baratheon. If Margery is also dead or is not pregnant then I think KL is thrown into chaos as i don't think there would be anyone left in the bloodline since Stannis , Shareen and Renly are dead. At that stage It might end up being whoever has the strongest army and can take it physically and hold it. It also comes back to the tale about who has power the Seaton, King or knight. It's whoever the people believe hold the power. With the Tyrells army, wealth and Margery sitting as queen she might be in the best position to make herself the queen queen. Then it would be Tyrell blood that dictates succession.

    Edit to add: your right about Gendry, he is technically a bastard, and I don't know if there's any proof he is actually Baratheon, so unless there is proof, so someone like the High Sparrow could legitimise him then he has no chance. And even if there was proof the High Sparrow doesn't have to legitimise him if he doesn't want to. I also miss Genry, and would love if he sat the iron throne in the end, but I doubt it.

    pavlovsbell
  • Just found the title and episode description for episode 8:

    The title is, as has previously leaked, “No One.” The description: “While Jaime (Nikolaj Coster-Waldau) weighs his options, Cersei (Lena Headey) answers a request. Tyrion’s (Peter Dinklage) plans bear fruit. Arya (Maisie Williams) faces a new test. Written by David Benioff & D. B. Weiss; directed by Mark Mylod.”

    Arya faces a new test?!! Looks like confirmation Arya is still in the game!
  • I am going to assume that Arya was wounded, and in the previews, there was a familiar face, of someone not seen since season 3.    Gendry the bastard son of King Robert and Arya had a close friendship, could he be the person that helps her out?   
    DummyElisa
  • Watchers on the wall just released what Sansa wrote in her letter



  • Speaking of Gendry, what if he is the one to find Arya and help her recuperate? Ya, it wouldn't really make much sense for him to be there and it would be really hard to suspend my disbelief that he found that needle (see what I did there) in the haystack that is Bravos, but I just want a reunion. 
    Elisa
  • Hunter said:

    I am going to assume that Arya was wounded, and in the previews, there was a familiar face, of someone not seen since season 3.    Gendry the bastard son of King Robert and Arya had a close friendship, could he be the person that helps her out?   

    Ninja'd. You win this one, Hunter 
  • trippy said:

    The Sparrow wants Loras to relinquish his title and claim to the Tyrell estate. Why would the HS care? Would that make Margaery next in line to inherit? Or Margaery's son, if she has one? 


    If Tommen dies before producing offspring, then who is in line for the crown? Kevan Lannister? If Kevan meets an untimely end, then Lancel? *gasp*

    WHERE IS GENDRY?
    huh.  now theres  a thought...   Tho, through his own machinations, per one of those looonnng conspiracy theories Aron stated on the podcast, Jaime would be next in line (or at least have a better claim). 

    But to continue that line of thinking.  What if the Sparrow was some last remaining member of house Reyne,  of "rains of castemere" fame?  What if his whole game isn't that he's after power, but he's just after the destruction of the Lannisters?  Might explain why he's so willing to accept Margaery's conversion: He honestly doesn't care.

    (granted that doesn't explain why he wants Loras to renounce his title.  Maybe just a smokescreen...)
    Was that not Gendry's face in the previews for this next show, could he be the one to help Arya?
  • Sansa's letter was to little finger. The link below blows up the letter so you can read it.

    The article is from watchers on the wall:

    http://watchersonthewall.com/sansa-writing-letter-the-broken-man/#more-67672
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    I just listened to the podcast, and regarding the email (?) speculating that there has to be some shade of grey to the White Walkers because GoT doesn't do villains that are just one dimensional and they all have shades of grey. I very strongly disagree. GoT has a wide spectrum of characters but pure evil and pure good characters exist. Ned, Robb, Davos, Brienne, they're all as good as good can be. Sure Davos was a smuggler but I would only count that as a very superficial level of "grey" added to his character. Sam? He has/had the flaw of not being ripped and being craven when introduced, but his goodness is as pure as the driven snow. On the flip side, sure, Theon and Jaime have flipped our opinions, but Viserys, Joffrey, the Mountain, and Ramsey are/were all pure evil. They have different motivations and desires, but their one-dimentionality in terms of being a pure bad guy is never questioned. Lord Frey? 100% bad guy. They're *interesting* characters because of their different motivations and levels of power and influence, but every bit of them is bad. At best, like Davos, some of them may have a very superficial level of grey that could be blown off with a light breeze.
    Garrison66
  • TheEconomistTheEconomist Chattanooga, TN
    Dummy said:

    Speaking of Gendry, what if he is the one to find Arya and help her recuperate? Ya, it wouldn't really make much sense for him to be there and it would be really hard to suspend my disbelief that he found that needle (see what I did there) in the haystack that is Bravos, but I just want a reunion. 



    Actually since he was on the rowboat to nowhere I could buy it if some Braavosi ship picked him up and he's been working the docks or as a blacksmith in Braavos and when a bleeding Arya is stumbling through the market Gendry spots her.
    Dummy
  • LannitikLannitik Milwaukee
    I dont completely understand the Clegane bowl now with this weeks episode. How do we get there? Why would the Hound head to Kingslanding?
    I get him fighting his brother, but I don't see him working with the faith militant.
    Again, I just don't see why he would even go to Kingslanding.
    In the books it made more sense because the faith could call perhaps on the Septon, but since he's dead here, they can't really call for him...
    I want vuvuzalas but I don't see them coming.
    GredalBeeDuncan MacElisa
  • edited June 2016
    lippy said:

    ghm3 said:

    The Sparrow wants Loras to relinquish his title and claim to the Tyrell estate. Why would the HS care? Would that make Margaery next in line to inherit? Or Margaery's son, if she has one? 


    If Tommen dies before producing offspring, then who is in line for the crown? Jaime, now that he is no longer Kingsguard? Kevan Lannister? If Kevan meets an untimely end, then Lancel? *gasp*

    WHERE IS GENDRY?
    @pavlovsbell The way I see it, he wants the crown to be religious zealots in order to give him behind the scenes power, starting with Tommen and Margaery. I don't see how any Lannister has a claim to the throne through anything but brute force, hence the HS sending Jaime away with his army. Tommen is the last "Baratheon" and after him, the line would go to the Tyrells, no? Except Loras gets in the way of this because he's above Margaery in the line of succession, hence the HS wanting him to relinquish his title, and why he wants Margaery and Tommen breeding like rabbits, to secure the line of puppet kings. 

    I don't see how Gendry could or would ever be legitimized.
    If Tommen dies I don't think the crown goes to Loras Tyrell, he doesn't have royal blood. He is the brother of the queen (but she is queen through marriage not blood) If Margery is pregnant she would probably sit as like a queen regent till the child comes of age to officially take the throne as it would be Baratheon. If Margery is also dead or is not pregnant then I think KL is thrown into chaos as i don't think there would be anyone left in the bloodline since Stannis , Shareen and Renly are dead. At that stage It might end up being whoever has the strongest army and can take it physically and hold it. It also comes back to the tale about who has power the Seaton, King or knight. It's whoever the people believe hold the power. With the Tyrells army, wealth and Margery sitting as queen she might be in the best position to make herself the queen queen. Then it would be Tyrell blood that dictates succession.

    Edit to add: your right about Gendry, he is technically a bastard, and I don't know if there's any proof he is actually Baratheon, so unless there is proof, so someone like the High Sparrow could legitimise him then he has no chance. And even if there was proof the High Sparrow doesn't have to legitimise him if he doesn't want to. I also miss Genry, and would love if he sat the iron throne in the end, but I doubt it.

    @lippy Sorry I did not type what I actually meant. By line of succession I didn't mean for king, I meant for leadership of house Tyrell. I assumed Margaery would become just be queen by default if Tommen died, but even if Margaery were queen of Westeros she would not have any claim to house Tyrell's fortune and power with Loras in the picture, right? 

    But you're saying there can be no transition of power just by marriage? If Tommen dies Margaery wouldn't just become queen? 
  • StarkFanWilliStarkFanWilli Monmouth, NJ

    Any idea where the Greyjoys are? I feel like we have seen that bridge before...
    Could it be Bravos? And Theon is going to find/save Arya?

    I think the captain Arya was talking to mentioned being in slavers bay and wanting to stay away from them
    Elisa
  • edited June 2016
    I

    I don't think Gendry is in Bravos, in the clip it looks rural and cloudy, not sunny urban Bravos. More than likely he is riverrun, with the brothers without banners. I think the arm around Gendry's neck is the Hound's. We know the Hound is going after the Brotherhood without Banners for revenge. Gendry is either hiding out on his own, not wanting to participate in the BWB bandit ways, and the Hound finds him, the hound spares his life, either because of his friendship with Arya and/or Gendry promises to lead the Hound to where the BWB are. No matter how the Hound and Gendry meet, or what happens,
    The result will be the Hound and Gendry will partner up to go find Arya.

  • Was their three person deal  finished when Arya took back his name(or whoever Jaqen H'ghar really is)?
  • Wait,

    I just looked at the preview again and the clip is not of Gendry. It's Podrick, in a prior shot you see Podrick wearing a red/brown leather vest with metal studs, with Brienne looking at all the red tents of Jamie's Army. Then the clip we see is Podrick, wearing the same vest, with red tents in the background.

    So it's Podrick not Gendry. That said, I bet Gendry and the Hound cross paths with the hound looking for revenge against the brotherhood without banners, and Gendry is most likely still with them or in the area.
  • edited June 2016
    treerocks said:

    treerocks said:

    Margery clearly has a plan, but unfortunately, the high Sparrow must have something up his sleeve as well. What does he gain if Margery is pregnant? Do you think Tommen volunteered that information to the High Sparrow? I'm not sure if he would. More Likely he asked Tommen. Which seems like a strange thing for a religious figure to be involved with. Maybe the High Sparrow is trying to avoid a takeover, with the knowledge that Tommen and Margery consummated thier marriage she is officially bound to Tommen and the Lannister family. That way he has Tommen wrapped around his finger and Margery stuck. The very next thing he says to Margery is a veiled threat to her grandmother. Maybe he did so knowing Margery will tell her grandmother to leave and if Lady Olena leaves, she takes her army with her. No Lannister or Tyrell army in town makes not just Cersi vulnerable, but Tommen and Margery as well. I'm all in on Team Margery, but just wary the High Sparrow will go away quietly.

    Any ideas as to what the High Sparrow is up to?




    @pavlovsbell

    @trippy

    @ghm3

    I missed your posts, just wondering what you thought of My post above.
    @treerocks Are we to think that Lady Olena leaving also means the Tyrell army is leaving with her? I didn't get that impression but I dunno.
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    ghm3 No, Margery wouldn't just become queen because of the marriage. Just like Cersei didn't become queen. She held power only because "Robert's" kids were still too young and she was their mother. That's why as soon as Tommen got married Cersei lost almost all power and relevance. She was just a place holder. If either Stannis was still alive and Tommen died, Stannis would have become king because he would be next in line.
    lippy
  • LukeLuke Central Illinois
    If Tommen dies without an heir I think that is when Littlefinger makes his move. At that point whoever has the biggest army and the most support is king.

    TheEconomistElisalippy
  • TheEconomistTheEconomist Chattanooga, TN
    Anominal said:

    ghm3 No, Margery wouldn't just become queen because of the marriage. Just like Cersei didn't become queen. She held power only because "Robert's" kids were still too young and she was their mother. That's why as soon as Tommen got married Cersei lost almost all power and relevance. She was just a place holder. If either Stannis was still alive and Tommen died, Stannis would have become king because he would be next in line.



    That's the tragic irony of Stannis. If the man was just patient enough to let the Lannisters implode he could ascend the throne all legitimate like and not burn his daughter or find his wife strung up bc of that.
    Elisalippy
  • Anominal said:

    ghm3 No, Margery wouldn't just become queen because of the marriage. Just like Cersei didn't become queen. She held power only because "Robert's" kids were still too young and she was their mother. That's why as soon as Tommen got married Cersei lost almost all power and relevance. She was just a place holder. If either Stannis was still alive and Tommen died, Stannis would have become king because he would be next in line.

    @Anominal Well that's not the same thing, it was different with Cersei because there were Baratheon heirs to take over, but Tommen is the last of his line so I figured that with no other Baratheon it would default to Margaery.
  • Hunter said:

    I am going to assume that Arya was wounded, and in the previews, there was a familiar face, of someone not seen since season 3.    Gendry the bastard son of King Robert and Arya had a close friendship, could he be the person that helps her out?   

    If that was indeed Arya that got multiple gut stabs complete with a ruthless knife twisting, fell into the dirty canal water, and is stumbling and bleeding out through the city, then it will take someone with a whole different skill set than Gendry to help her... I don't see Gendry in play in this at all.
    lippy
  • LannitikLannitik Milwaukee
    While I could see that it MIGHT be Arya part of a Usual Suspects trick, I'm willing to bet dick on my forehead in red lipstick that it's not someone else wearing her face or anything of that nature. I think MAYBE she's working with the theater troupe and she really wasn't stabbed, it's fake blood, BUT there's no way it's not her. 

  • bizmarkiefaderbizmarkiefader San Francisco
    Lannitik said:

    I think MAYBE she's working with the theater troupe and she really wasn't stabbed, it's fake blood, BUT there's no way it's not her. 


    That would have been great if when she got stabbed a bunch of tied together red handkerchiefs fell out of the bottom of her shirt
    Duncan MacFernNYC17
  • Lannitik said:

    While I could see that it MIGHT be Arya part of a Usual Suspects trick, I'm willing to bet dick on my forehead in red lipstick that it's not someone else wearing her face or anything of that nature.


    Yeah. I thought the whole point of the Faceless Men was that they wore the faces of dead people. I'm not sure why they would be wearing Arya's face.
  • @telephoneofmadness Thats exactly what I've been thinking. If this was the case they could just throw on a Tommen face and take over!!
  • TheEconomistTheEconomist Chattanooga, TN
    @telephoneofmadness @hisdudeness915

    At the end of season 5 in "Mother's Mercy" when Jaqen poisons himself and Arya goes down grieving she picks through a whole series of faces until she sees her own before going blind. Also of note the Waif holding her back while Jaqen drinks poison then appears as Jaqen.

    So I don't know if it isn't possible or she was just hallucinating or whatever. It's all smoke and mirrors with these Faceless Men so it's so hard to tell.
    ElisaDuncan Maclippy
  • @telephoneofmadness @hisdudeness915

    At the end of season 5 in "Mother's Mercy" when Jaqen poisons himself and Arya goes down grieving she picks through a whole series of faces until she sees her own before going blind. Also of note the Waif holding her back while Jaqen drinks poison then appears as Jaqen.

    So I don't know if it isn't possible or she was just hallucinating or whatever. It's all smoke and mirrors with these Faceless Men so it's so hard to tell.

    I took it as an hallucination but could be wrong. I also assume that the Waif and Jaqen "faces" are also from dead people. So, basically, we've never seen what the Waif and Jaqen's real faces look like. I dunno. I'm kinda starting to hate the entire Faceless Men bit in the show. I think it's just an inherently easier thing to do in a book so I don't really blame D&D per se but it's just too much hand-waving for me. Anything else that happens in this show is easily explainable when my non-book reader wife needs my help to clarify. But when she asks me about this, I'm just shrugging my shoulders. That being said, I'm still optimistic that the payoff will be satisfactory.
    voodoorat
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    @ghm3 Hmm... that's interesting that you see it that way. Because to me there is zero difference in the situation. The whole point about the legitimacy of the royal line is that the rulers share the same bloodline. That's why even though there was a rebellion, because Robert had the most royal blood in him, he was the one that was made king. They simultaneously rejected the Targaryens but also still followed the custom of strongest blood ties to the Targaryen line. If Tommen dies and there are no Baratheons, the title would go to the next in line with the best claim.... and not... because practically, it would go to the one who could gain the most support and have the armies to secure and enforce their claim. Renly showed us that even with Baratheons still being alive having that support still counts for a lot. Margery *could* still claim to be queen, but it wouldn't go uncontested.

    lippy
  • edited June 2016


    Lannitik said:

    While I could see that it MIGHT be Arya part of a Usual Suspects trick, I'm willing to bet dick on my forehead in red lipstick that it's not someone else wearing her face or anything of that nature.


    Yeah. I thought the whole point of the Faceless Men was that they wore the faces of dead people. I'm not sure why they would be wearing Arya's face.



    Well, a man has worn Arya's face before... Remember when she was peeling face after face off of Jaqen and hers was there.

    Certainly people can believe what they want, but I put more stock into some sort of FM magic over a mummers farce with fake pig's blood. A waif would know when her knife goes into someone, and when it does not. No way the waif is fooled by Arya wearing chain mail and having fake blood come out... That knife went in repeatedly, and it was twisted while in Arya stomach up to the hilt for good measure.

    I have not seen any evidence for hallucinations (a man drank the potion, not Arya). Not saying it isn't possible, but if we are just going to disregard evidence we don't like as arbitrary hallucinations with nothing to even indicate that is possible, then I am laying dibs on Ned's beheading being a hallucination and he is in fact laying in wait for Sansa and Jon to show up at Winterfell, with his entire Northern Lord's armies at his back.

    lippy
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