I'm really intrigued by Ed Harris's character. I thought he was a host until they established he's not. I wonder if he's from a rival company out to steal trade secrets? He's clearly a part of the larger picture that the Head Writer was talking about, but is that some kind of military project? An experiment in population control?
I got the feeling he's not just a rival, but also a former compatriot/colleague or perhaps apprentice. In the scene when he shot Teddy, didn't he say "It's great to be back!"? Now that could mean he's been a guest before, but to me it felt more like he had been returning after a long absence. As if he had been banish (if not imprisoned), and now perhaps forgotten as only Ford remained from the time that Harris's character worked there.
If I'm not mistaken, isnt it easier to license the rights to a song as opposed to the version? I thought they were two seperate licenses. So it's easier to obtain the license to paint it black, just not the rolling stones version. That's why you tend to see a lot of covers of Rolling stones songs as opposed to the original studio versions. I could be mistaken though.
Generally speaking, it's the same licence. Usually when a band/song writer signs a publishing deal it's for both (they aren't even distinguished as being separate things). In the Rolling Stones case, it's complicated. The distribution of all the Rolling Stones music is owned by Universal Music (through various labels that they own), and they also have the publishing rights for their music from 1971-to the present (a deal that was just worked out a few years ago). Universal also own the recordings (ie the Rolling Stones version of their own songs) pre-1971, but a different company owns the publishing rights to those songs.
So to use a 1971+ Rolling Stones song, you just have to deal with Universal. To use a pre 1971 song (as recorded by the Rolling Stones) you have to get both Universal's and ABCKO's permission (who own the publishing of the pre 1971 songs) because one owns the distribution and the other owns the publishing.
Either Universal or ABCKO can block the use of a pre 1971 Rolling Stones song as recorded by the Rolling Stones, but to use a cover version of a pre-1971 song you only need to get ABCKO's permission (since the own the intellectual rights to the written music...Universal just own the Rolling Stones recordings of it).
I'm not sure if its still around or not, but at one time there was a bit of a cottage industry devoted to recording exact copy-cat versions ABCKO owned Rolling Stones songs...at least a few of the Rolling Stones songs that you can remember from TV or movies wasn't actually performed by them, but rather by a band that sounds exactly like them!
There was something funny going on with the flies. They would trigger reactions to swat/kill in a human but that is programmed out of the Hosts. At least up until the end with Dolores swats one on her face after the interrogation scene when one wanders across her eye.
Is there more to these flies? The sheriff looking for the outlaw went berserk when one landed on his face. Was it the reveries that shorted him out because he was fighting the urge to kill the fly? or is the fly just another robot/host? I doubt the second part but its interesting to think about.
The sheriff also lost his scalp, similar to the card dealer. The Man in Black must be getting around...
They were not allowed to harm another living thing. That is why before you would see them walk on their eye and no reaction was made. The "glitch" has begun to circumvent this the implications are that humans are most likely next.
I'm all in. I feel guilty for wishing I could go there. They did an amazing job of showing the moral dilemma that will inevitably arise once AI and engineering combine to create a truly lifelike machine. At what point do emotions become valid? I know I would be hard pressed to "play evil" in a world where people react so genuinely to their surroundings and situations.
I enjoyed the pilot. looking forward to the Bald Move take on it. One thing that didn't jibe with me, when the crew go down to cold storage, they open a door and water floods out. Did that water build up in the time A. Hopkins was having his drink with the older model?
I'm hoping it was a weird continuity error of some sort, but it felt like a cheap misdirection to make you feel apprehension that two androids where having a conversation in the dark and wet.
Also had a bit of an Alien vibe to that scene didn't it? All this shiny technology on the surface, but dripping pipes in the hold?
I'm all in. I feel guilty for wishing I could go there. They did an amazing job of showing the moral dilemma that will inevitably arise once AI and engineering combine to create a truly lifelike machine. At what point do emotions become valid? I know I would be hard pressed to "play evil" in a world where people react so genuinely to their surroundings and situations.
Why do you have to play evil? Like we saw the family by the river with Delores while she was painting and feeding horses.
You don't have to. I'm equating it to a next level video game, kind of like what Jim and A. Ron were talking about in the intro episode of the podcast. When I would play Red Dead Redemption, for instance, I would sometimes "play evil" to let off steam. My point was that it would be infinitely harder to do that with AI that is so realistic and tangible.
I'm all in. I feel guilty for wishing I could go there. They did an amazing job of showing the moral dilemma that will inevitably arise once AI and engineering combine to create a truly lifelike machine. At what point do emotions become valid? I know I would be hard pressed to "play evil" in a world where people react so genuinely to their surroundings and situations.
Why do you have to play evil? Like we saw the family by the river with Delores while she was painting and feeding horses.
You don't have to. I'm equating it to a next level video game, kind of like what Jim and A. Ron were talking about in the intro episode of the podcast. When I would play Red Dead Redemption, for instance, I would sometimes "play evil" to let off steam. My point was that it would be infinitely harder to do that with AI that is so realistic and tangible.
Oh i see, it's a gaming thing. I'm not a gamer so I didn't get it.
It didn't help that I think I used the phrase "hard pressed" incorrectly, or at least in a muddled way. No worries, though. I'm not much of a gamer either, so I may not be making any sense whatsoever.
Are we to believe there are no physical duplicates of the "hosts"?
It seems that they're just repaired at the end of every night. Doubles probably aren't needed since it seems to be so easy for them to basically 3d print the parts needed to repair the OG models.
in case you aren't on the westworldsubrebbit, West World has a website with AI you can interact with. It will explain to you how much it costs to stay there, what to expect, what's life like in sweetwater, etc. It even has glitches. It's fantastic.
Ed Harris/Man in Black - I do not think that him being a 30-year "customer" and the critical failure taking place 30-years ago are a coincidence. I'd bet he is an android that was perhaps thought to have been put in cold storage from becoming self-aware as part of the previous "critical failure" and is somehow off the grid (similar to someone else posting that he is disconnected from the Matrix). He has also somehow been able to trick the systems that he is a Guest and therefore is unable to be shot or injured by the Hosts. The man in black says "after all we've been through" to Dolores, in a way which alludes to the fact that they were perhaps "a thing". Could be similar to Roy Batty in Blade Runner aging over time as a result of decommissioning and needing an answer to stop it. EDIT: Read some of the comments I didn't get to and nod to Luke above for having the same thought.
Lore Theory - I am trying to think where they go with this in the long run, and while I do expect it to go in a direction of the androids becoming sentient, I think there will be a twist. While it seems that all of the androids are programmed, the origins of the android programming could hold a surprise. Suppose that the original base programming in each android were from human minds. In an effort to achieve immortality or simply as an experiment, humans "donated" (may or may not have been their choice) their minds. Not necessarily the brains themselves but rather the electronic data. So in a sense, these androids may hold previous human consciousness that were initially corrupted to hide the humanity. Over time, and with the periodic updates, the humanity in the minds are becoming stronger and showing themselves. Could be an interesting take on the idea of sentient or self aware robots and really push the morality boundaries.
I keep getting tripped up by the timing of the resets/loops. The writers and the engineers were talking about speeding up an event that would normally take place a week later, but as far as we can see inside the park, all characters get wiped and rebooted every 24 hours?
My mind is glitching like the sheriff's when trying to reconcile.... help me!
in case you aren't on the westworldsubrebbit, West World has a website with AI you can interact with. It will explain to you how much it costs to stay there, what to expect, what's life like in sweetwater, etc. It even has glitches. It's fantastic.
Really good intro to the world, some great acting and a lot to speculate on. Also pretty good ratings for the premiere, bodes well for a second season...
I keep getting tripped up by the timing of the resets/loops. The writers and the engineers were talking about speeding up an event that would normally take place a week later, but as far as we can see inside the park, all characters get wiped and rebooted every 24 hours?
My mind is glitching like the sheriff's when trying to reconcile.... help me!
speculation, but it could be that the replicants just go about a daily routine when they aren't part of a larger narrative, or the larger narrative is woven into their daily tasks (monday through wednesday, do this from 9 to 10, on thursday do something a little different, etc). so they may not be aware that today is a different day, but they just decide with the illusion of free will to do something a little differently on the day they're supposed to. i guess the overarching story morphs based on who gets killed and who doesn't (although either they were playing loosely with time or teddy was coming into town every day, which seems like it would sort of ruin the experience if you were still there and you'd murdered him the day before). i don't know how well the actual mechanics stand up to scrutiny anyway, the method of observation seems a little, uh, iffy. i guess it's supposed to be a holographic map which has a live feed of everything going on in the whole area and they can zoom in and out on it to see detail? i still need to rewatch the episode.
Continuing on with the morality thread, I think it may have more to do with the moral, psychological impact on the flesh and blood humans and society as a whole. When you can rape and kill someone that appears completely real at the point where Westworld has reached, what does that say about you? What effect does that have on the larger world? People argue now about the effect technology, and video games in particular, have had on us- desensitization, isolation, etc. At the very least, you're only bolstering the entitlement that the rich and powerful already feel by making them complete masters of this small world where one doesn't even have to bother checking their actions because the "people" around them have no feelings, there are no repercussions. I imagine we won't leave Westworld all that often if at all, but could see this reflected in the people who run this place and the "newcomers." Ed Harris's character is a great example of where this mentality ultimately leads. I also suspect he is someone who has been doing this a long time and now seeks to push the boundaries of this place to it's limits.
The could the robots become "human"/ what is human idea could be interesting as well. It's also quite interesting to think about just the impact AI could/will have on our real world. At any rate, I think the show already has great potential. And I also love the orchestral "Paint it Black" bit.
I keep getting tripped up by the timing of the resets/loops. The writers and the engineers were talking about speeding up an event that would normally take place a week later, but as far as we can see inside the park, all characters get wiped and rebooted every 24 hours?
My mind is glitching like the sheriff's when trying to reconcile.... help me!
Intend to agree with @voodoorat while certain hosts have the same routine, there is an overall narrative that is "set". So while you may seemingly be going through the same "base" actions everyday a change here or there and it is "new". Bringing in the "wanted" man was a "big" event marker, so instead of happening on Friday, they had that event brought to Monday. Those unaffected by that arc could go about doing the same thing they always do. Of course on Saturday, they could either move on or "reset" the storyline to him still hiding.
I think The Man in Black might be a new model of robot that actually thinks he is human and is part of some sort of experiment Anthony Hopkins is running. Kind of like Blade Runner maybe. Or an Ironic reversal of the Truman Show with Ed Harris as a robot Truman.
I'm certain there will be some twist that comes up with him and Dr. Ford. My only concern is if he keeps digging down the rabbit hole and is literally taking robot parts along with him as he plays the game, I would find it extremely unrealistic that the park administration and scientists wouldn't be mentioning him in conversations on screen. Like "hey Teresa, you know that trillionaire who has been playing this game everyday since before we were hired and is bleeding out our androids and taking their skulls with him on horseback? Yeah, what's going on with him? Did you see that weird symbol or map on Bob the blackjack dealers skull?"
There was something funny going on with the flies. They would trigger reactions to swat/kill in a human but that is programmed out of the Hosts. At least up until the end with Dolores swats one on her face after the interrogation scene when one wanders across her eye.
Is there more to these flies? The sheriff looking for the outlaw went berserk when one landed on his face. Was it the reveries that shorted him out because he was fighting the urge to kill the fly? or is the fly just another robot/host? I doubt the second part but its interesting to think about.
The sheriff also lost his scalp, similar to the card dealer. The Man in Black must be getting around...
They were not allowed to harm another living thing. That is why before you would see them walk on their eye and no reaction was made. The "glitch" has begun to circumvent this the implications are that humans are most likely next.
Man, I feel really stupid now. I've been wondering about this since last night. I was thinking 1) Would a fly care about and crawl on a robot? I read that they typically like living things because they're looking for waste and other food. 2) It would seem unsettling to talk to a robot that didn't care if a fly crawled across it's eyeball, so why wouldn't they be programmed to swat them?
That makes all the sense in the world, now though. Still seems like you could just have them shoo the flies away, or at least blink. But I'm nitpicking.
I thought that the lady who played Cullen was a horrible actor in comparison to everyone else. Flat, one note delivery. Needless to say, I'm waiting for the reveal that she's a robot.
One quick observation/question: in one scene, a
black family is presented as guests in WestWorld. If you are black,
why in the hell would you want to go to a simulated reality park that
takes you BACK to a time when slavery was legal and/or general racism so
prominent (at the very least)? I guess I could presume that the AI's
have been programmed without a certain degree of racial prejudice, but
that would also raise some ethical concerns in regard to the
white-washing of American history. I don't think it's a big problem,
but more of an interesting thought to consider about the world being
built in the show.
I mean, the slaves in Westworld are the hosts. That's obviously a theme that's coming. One of the core, underlying tenets of racism has always seemed to be the idea that, no matter how shitty your life is, no matter how much of a moral or personal failure you are, no matter how broken your family is, if you can convince yourself that you're still inherently good because you're X (white, whatever) then you're better than SOMEONE else. The Hosts are the someone else. You can rape Dolores for fun because she's not a real person. But when she gets real enough that it blurs the lines, you sort of have to ask yourself extremely difficult questions about when this stops being a video game and starts being a torturefest.
As to the Man in Black: I am 100% convinced he is our hidden-in-plain-sight antihero. It's possible he's our supervillain, but that seems too obvious. And Ed Harris is too incredibly awesome an actor to be playing a supporting role like that. He's looking for Westworld's secrets, and aren't we all sure Westworld's secrets are going to be sinister? He's uncovering stuff. And that stuff is the dark secrets. Which makes him a strange hero, even though he seems to thoroughly enjoy the rapey violence of the simulation.
Are we to believe there are no physical duplicates of the "hosts"?
This has led to another concern that jumped out at me. The hosts bleed, they show injury, they appear to heal or have to be cycled out for situations. They certainly don't seem like robots in the truest sense; they seem like cyborgs, in that they're partially organic. Seeing as there don't appear to be duplicates, given that each host cycles to different roles, and they had to replace Dolores' father with someone with a different face, do we think these are reanimated corpses of actual people? Were people cloned/grown/killed/harvested/whatever to create these Hosts?
I am still not sure what to think (and very curious) about the true nature of the park and how it exists in physical space. Where is it located, and is there some sort of giant fence or force field or something around it to keep the hosts in and the guests from accidentally wandering out? Where does the train bringing new guests originate? The engineers seem to just appear out of thin air when they need to investigate or fix something but we don't see how they get there. They don't roll up in a jeep or rappel down out out of a helicopter... have they invented teleportation along with androids? Or is this not the concrete physical world that it appears to be?
Comments
Generally speaking, it's the same licence. Usually when a band/song writer signs a publishing deal it's for both (they aren't even distinguished as being separate things). In the Rolling Stones case, it's complicated. The distribution of all the Rolling Stones music is owned by Universal Music (through various labels that they own), and they also have the publishing rights for their music from 1971-to the present (a deal that was just worked out a few years ago). Universal also own the recordings (ie the Rolling Stones version of their own songs) pre-1971, but a different company owns the publishing rights to those songs.
So to use a 1971+ Rolling Stones song, you just have to deal with Universal. To use a pre 1971 song (as recorded by the Rolling Stones) you have to get both Universal's and ABCKO's permission (who own the publishing of the pre 1971 songs) because one owns the distribution and the other owns the publishing.
Either Universal or ABCKO can block the use of a pre 1971 Rolling Stones song as recorded by the Rolling Stones, but to use a cover version of a pre-1971 song you only need to get ABCKO's permission (since the own the intellectual rights to the written music...Universal just own the Rolling Stones recordings of it).
I'm not sure if its still around or not, but at one time there was a bit of a cottage industry devoted to recording exact copy-cat versions ABCKO owned Rolling Stones songs...at least a few of the Rolling Stones songs that you can remember from TV or movies wasn't actually performed by them, but rather by a band that sounds exactly like them!
https://discoverwestworld.com/#
My mind is glitching like the sheriff's when trying to reconcile.... help me!
I mean, the slaves in Westworld are the hosts. That's obviously a theme that's coming. One of the core, underlying tenets of racism has always seemed to be the idea that, no matter how shitty your life is, no matter how much of a moral or personal failure you are, no matter how broken your family is, if you can convince yourself that you're still inherently good because you're X (white, whatever) then you're better than SOMEONE else. The Hosts are the someone else. You can rape Dolores for fun because she's not a real person. But when she gets real enough that it blurs the lines, you sort of have to ask yourself extremely difficult questions about when this stops being a video game and starts being a torturefest.
As to the Man in Black: I am 100% convinced he is our hidden-in-plain-sight antihero. It's possible he's our supervillain, but that seems too obvious. And Ed Harris is too incredibly awesome an actor to be playing a supporting role like that. He's looking for Westworld's secrets, and aren't we all sure Westworld's secrets are going to be sinister? He's uncovering stuff. And that stuff is the dark secrets. Which makes him a strange hero, even though he seems to thoroughly enjoy the rapey violence of the simulation.