Ben Simmons Documentary

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/17945257/ben-simmons-blasts-messed-ncaa-film-says-players-get-nothing

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ben-simmons-ncaa_us_5818ff76e4b0f96eba9681e2

Reading a couple of articles about the Ben Simmons doc that is coming out on Showtime, I just can't help but to get a little annoyed when I see these kids complain about being exploited about the NCAA. 

On one hand, I totally understand that it is unfair that the college or university gets to put these kid's names on a jersey and sell it and the school gets all the profit/money.  I also understand that some of these kids do indeed have the talent to go straight to the professional league. 

However, when annoys the hell out of me is when I read a quote like this "I got B's and C's; I'm not going to class next semester because I don't need to," Simmons said. "... I'm here to play, I'm not here to go to school.".  Uh, so I'd love to ask Mr. Simmons in the scenario where he gets a career ending injury, what does he do then?  Perhaps school could have actually helped.  But instead, you see school as a nuisance.  Yes, at your current talent level, the NBA is knocking on your door and teams are tanking for an opportunity to pick #1 in the draft.  But, we've seen plenty of high-potential talent completely flame out or bust in the NBA so there are no guarantees.  What I don't really understand is why Simmons didn't go to Europe and play there for 1 year and get paid if he was that sure of himself and thought that school was a waste of his time.  Additionally, Simmons did receive money.  It was just money that he couldn't physically spend.  He got 1 free year at LSU while many others had to pay or take out a loan in order to pay.  Perhaps Simmons should also go have a conversation with some athletes that have gone broke after their playing career was done and maybe if they had a degree, they would have had something else to fall back on.

Now, this whole conversation is basically the whole debate about whether college athletes should receive some sort of payments/compensation from the school when the school is making a lot of money off of them.  To me, I think one compromise is perhaps to put a percentage of the money that they make off of jersey sales or bowl game appearances or something into a trust fund type of scenario where the player gets X% per year that they attend the school.  So, for  example, maybe it's something like 10% for 1 year, 25% for 2 years, 40% for 3 years, and 50% for 4 years.  Something like this that could potentially incentivized these student athletes to stay in school and actually get an education/degree.  I'm not really sure it would really work, but something like that perhaps. 

Sorry for venting but had to get some of this off my mind.  Basically, I would love to have a sit down with someone like Simmons and go point for point with him.  Yes, I'll never understand what it's like to be him but I think some of these guys really don't think about the other side to life and see that school can actually help you out.

Comments

  • They would tell you the same thing. If you can't relate or empathize then you'd just be banging your head against a brick wall. You can't correlate someone like Ben Simmons to a bench player or someone with "good talent". The ONLY reason many go to college now is because it's a requirement of the NBA. Otherwise many would go straight to the draft (as was done in the past). For those special athletes school is more of an internship. You are also acting like they can't go back to school if they had a career ending injury.

    You have also twisted the paying atheletes into the "benefits" of school. What if I told you that while you were in school, you can't hold a job, had to travel across the country and keep in peak physical form on top of school work. Not only this, but your school would make millions off of your likeness, what you get though is a "valuable" education. The earning potential of the superstar atheletes is not unlimited either. So the incentive to stay would need to be HUGE. I'm sorry, but if I have the choice between a couple of hundred thousand dollars and multimillions via Pro level sports, I'm choosing the Pro Sports as my earning potential is that much greater.

    You're basically making the schools argument. Why pay them when the payment is education. That there are hundreds/thousands of students that have to pay. Well were those students used in recruiting? Did those students bring booster dontations? Did they sell those students likeness or game jerseys for profit? Did they prevent those students from earning money? Oh they didn't? It's not a valid argument and one to weasel out of paying those student atheletes.
    Georgephoenyx1023mileswarrin
  • "You are also acting like they can't go back to school if they had a career ending injury."

    Yes, they can go back to school, but as you pointed out, these athletes are only going to school because it's now a requirement (or at least they need to be out of high school for 1 year before getting into the NBA).  However, if they really want money now, then they can go play over in Europe or Asia or some other league for the 1 year and then go to the pros.  They don't have to go to college.  I think they only go to college because more scouts use college as a measuring stick as oppose to relying on using a foreign league to evaluate the talent.  But, I'd really question how many of these athletes actually go back and finish their degree.

    "What if I told you that while you were in school, you can't hold a job, had to travel across the country and keep in peak physical form on top of school work."

    The not being able to hold a job is BS in my opinion.  If they want to be a student athlete on a scholarship then they should be allowed to hold a job (and I mean, they actually have to work, not just show up and sit around because an employer is using them for their "celebrity status" or a booster decides to pay them 100,000 for a fake job).  But the rest of "they have to stay in peak physical shape and travel", any student athlete needs to do that whether its football, basketball, baseball, crew, tennis, volleyball, track, etc.  So, you're not convincing me on that front.  Even the kids not on scholarship but make a college team are expected to do that.

    "I'm sorry, but if I have the choice between a couple of hundred thousand dollars and multimillions via Pro level sports, I'm choosing the Pro Sports as my earning potential is that much greater."

    Sure, if done correctly, you maximize your career in pro sports and able to save your money and set up yourself (and family) for the rest of your life but you have to remember that how long is your playing career really?  If you're lucky, maybe 10 to 15 years, possibly even less.  So, you also need to think about what are you doing when you're career is over.  And that's where having a degree of some sort to fall back on can help.  Especially if your playing career never takes off as you expected it would or an injury derails your career.

    I do agree that it's unfair for a guy like Simmons (and many others that are in the same place as Simmons) to be used by the NCAA system and something needs to be worked out.  However, there should also be more of an incentive to stay in school and get an education.  It's not like we always had players jumping right after high school or after the 1st year of college (just look at the 80's where the talented players stayed for a few years in college to develop and enhance their games before going for the pros).  The problem is that for every Simmons, there's a Kwame Brown type of example of why players shouldn't jump from high school to the pros. 

     


  • First of all, with regards to a career ending injury:
    Top prospects will generally buy insurance for precisely that risk. Second, the only reason they have this risk is by being forced to play for free before going to the NBA. If they could go straight to the NBA, contracts are guaranteed so they'd be fine if that happened.

    Second, even student athletes who take their education seriously are at a disadvantage. I teach college at a place that is not that big into sports. I still had a football player who had to be 15 minutes late every day for class because of team meetings in the spring. These meetings were only announced after the semester had started and add/drop had ended.

    And you used Kwame Brown as a negative example. He may have been a bust as a pro, but Kwame Brown still had a long career and made $63 million in salaries. I doubt that forcing him to stay in school for 4 years would have been better for him, personally.

    Finally, I think athletes should be paid, or at the very least there should be no restrictions on them getting paid by other people. Student athletes are seriously taken advantage of by unscrupulous coaches and administrators. I have seen, first hand, assistant coaches blowing smoke up a player's ass in terms of their pro potential. This assistant coach wanted this player to take an easy schedule and switch majors to one of our easy ones. The student was a kid who didn't know better and followed along. That despite this kid being a back up on a team that couldn't even make the NIT. These kids have all these people promising them the world in terms of pro chances just so these kids go all out on the sport instead of education. They should at least get some money out of that deal.
    phoenyx1023
  • You do realize many students stay the entire 4 years and get degrees right? The bones that leave early are usually those with special talent. The example of Kwame Brown was probably a poor one. Show me anyone who would hate to "fizzle out" AND still make close to $63 million over 10 years.....
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brownkw01.html#all_all_salaries

    That's just base salary and doesn't include any endorsement money he may have made.

    That right there is reason enough. Heck let's look at base salary for someone who may ride the bench and never play a minute:
    http://hoopshype.com/2015/10/12/whats-the-minimum-nba-salary/

    Years in NBA 2015-16 2016-17 2017-18 2018-19 2019-20 2020-21
    0 $525,093 $543,471 $562,493 $582,180 $602,557 $623,646
    1 $845,059 $874,636 $905,249 $936,932 $969,725 $1,003,665
    2 $947,276 $980,431 $1,014,746 $1,050,262 $1,087,021 $1,125,067
    3 $981,348 $1,015,696 $1,051,245 $1,088,038 $1,126,120 $1,165,534
    4 $1,015,421 $1,050,961 $1,087,745 $1,125,816 $1,165,220 $1,206,002
    5 $1,100,602 $1,139,123 $1,178,992 $1,220,257 $1,262,966 $1,307,170
    6 $1,185,784 $1,227,286 $1,270,241 $1,314,700 $1,360,714 $1,408,339
    7 $1,270,964 $1,315,448 $1,361,489 $1,409,141 $1,458,461 $1,509,507
    8 $1,356,146 $1,403,611 $1,452,738 $1,503,583 $1,556,209 $1,610,676
    9 $1,362,897 $1,410,598 $1,459,969 $1,511,068 $1,563,956 $1,618,694
    10+ $1,499,187 $1,551,659 $1,605,967 $1,662,176 $1,720,352 $1,780,564

    This basically shows you could make a minimum of just over 500k a year. How many jobs out of college offer that?

    While I think that pro level sports need to do a better job of preaching money management, it's not like "fizzling out" is the same as it is outside of sports. They can also go play overseas for a good amount of money.

    While I do agree that an education is important, with the limited window many of these atheletes have to make maximum potential, I understand the WHY. Degrees if wanted can always be attained. They aren't needed however to be successful after sports (although they can be helpful). Financial planning and having the right group around you is important as well.

    We also can't look back to the 80's because the earnings have skyrocketed so much. It was a VERY different time. I mean if we search hard enough we can always find examples of financial flops or players squandering their money. Much of this would be taken care of with teaching/leading the players in what to look out for, and how to make sure their money lasts a lifetime if not more.

    As I've said, I believe education is important, but degrees these days much less so (depending on education path).
    phoenyx1023George
  • GeorgeGeorge Astoria, New York
    'Sure, if done correctly, you maximize your career in pro sports and able to save your money and set up yourself (and family) for the rest of your life but you have to remember that how long is your playing career really?  If you're lucky, maybe 10 to 15 years, possibly even less.  So, you also need to think about what are you doing when you're career is over.  And that's where having a degree of some sort to fall back on can help.  Especially if your playing career never takes off as you expected it would or an injury derails your career.'

    Why do we think these athletes are incapable of weighing the risk/reward in a situation like this? Why do you think you have more insight and perspective to make an informed decision on this than the athlete who is weighing those options? I can't support any rules that prevent a college student from joining the workforce and making tens of millions of dollars. Regardless of what any of us think is right or wrong, or what would be 'best' for that player, it should be the responsibility of the athlete to make that decision the same way it would be the right of any college student to make those decisions for him/herself. To place restrictions on these players based on what anyone other than the athlete thinks would be 'best' for them isn't something I can support, especially considering their earning power. Keep in mind that a good portion of these athletes aren't always the best off, and that draft day could change the lives of not only that player but his entire family.

    So there's a lot more in play here than what we see on the surface.

    As far as I'm concerned if a person of that age can choose their major and their prospective profession, I don't see why the rules would be any different for anyone else.
    phoenyx1023
  • edited November 2016

    Ok, so let's use Kwame as the example.  So, he made 63 million over 10 years.  Coming out of high school, he would be roughly 28 after those 10 years.  I'd ask, about how much of that 63 million did he actually receive (vs. paying taxes and having to pay an agent and other people that take a percentage) and how much did he spend right away and what's left over?  Because, what's left over is what he has to live off of from the age of 28 and on.  Then, he has to go and find another source of income to sustain himself and others that he's currently taking care of (if any).  Something tells me that a person in that situation will need more than the remaining of the original 63 million over the 10 years that he made (case in point, look at someone like Antoine Walker who made over 100 million and is now broke).

    As for the whole athlete that can go back and get a degree, unless you have some sort of statistical report to show me, I don't think I'm going to buy it.  A lot of these guys say they'll go back and finish but how many actually do?  I'd be willing to bet that less than 50% go back and it's probably lower than that.  I mean, if your life focus is on playing 1 particular sport from say the age of 8 to 10 and you practice over and over and all throughout high school this is your goal and you're forced to go to college with the sole purpose of going pro, then how much desire and attention and focus are you really putting into school/education?  So, after say a 10 to 15 year career, then your effort level and desire will turn to "well, now it's time to go back and learn about some stuff that I haven't needed my entire life thus far"?  That's where I fail to buy in.  However, if I'm totally wrong and majority of these athletes are going back to school to get a degree, EXCELLENT, happy to hear it.  But I just don't think it's in their mindset to do that.

    However, the whole conversation of teaching these kids how to manage their money and not spend it all is something that is extremely critical.  But part of that is also having the right type of people around them that actually want the best for that person as oppose to really just viewing the person as a potential and personal ATM and leeching off of them.  But really, if you give an 18yr old 50 million dollars, how many of them are really going to think long term even if you make them attend a class or two about managing their money?

    And I guess the playing overseas was part of my point about Simmons.  If he felt so insulted about having to go to a college because he knew that he was just doing it to kill some time before he was allowed to go pro, then why didn't he just go overseas and earn some money during that 1 year?  I'd really like to see his response to that question.  Because to me, it sounds like that was the perfect solution to his attitude (and Brandon Jennings already showed this was possible). 

    "Why do we think these athletes are incapable of weighing the risk/reward in a situation like this? Why do you think you have more insight and perspective to make an informed decision on this than the athlete who is weighing those options?"

    As for this question, I'd say the same reason why the gov't takes money out of paycheck to make everyone pay for social security.  Because sometimes, people don't always make the best decisions for themselves.  Especially if they have other people with their own agendas trying to influence them.

    "Keep in mind that a good portion of these athletes aren't always the best off, and that draft day could change the lives of not only that player but his entire family."

    And what happens to the player that leaves college early and hires an agent because they are being told that they have a shot to be a 1st rounder and then draft day comes and they don't get drafted or get drafted much later and then never make it?  Well, then they can't go back to school to play sports because they forfeited their rights (which maybe that should be changed) and then they can either attempt to get a degree or they can go overseas and hope that they have enough talent to make it over there.

  • You are doing a lot of assuming worth your "thesis".

    As far as degrees and going back (just random google searches:
    http://www.campusexplorer.com/college-advice-tips/CA1C390B/NFL-Players-Head-Back-to-College/

    Nearly half of NFL have degrees


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/06/17/dear-lebron-time-to-get-a-college-degree-other-big-time-athletes-did/

    Nearly 21% of NBA players have undergraduate degrees.

    http://www.rasmussen.edu/student-life/blogs/main/athletes-with-college-degrees/

    Here's a list of players in multiple sports that went back to school.

    As we can see it's not out of the realm of possibility.

    It seems we are going around in circles, I mean we can come up with a million different "what ifs" that "could" happen.
  • @dochielomn "Education" is not defined by obtaining a college degree. And conflating a degree with success and long term financial stability is silly.

    Given the chance, I'm sure most people would opt to make money doing the thing they loved/excelled in as soon as they could for however long they could. School isn't going anywhere, and IF a degree is something they desire, there's no limitations to going back later. And at least at that point, you're doing it out of pure desire and not some forced construct of the "appropriate" way to matriculate through life. (And i say this as someone who's done a LOT of school).

    I'm sure if your employer told you tomorrow that the paychecks were stopping because the "experience" of working there should be payment enough, you'd have a fit. You make money for an organization, you should be compensated for it, period. Being an athlete for the school IS their job. With what extra hours of the day are you expecting them to be able to also maintain a part time job?
    KingKobraGeorge
  • NFL players have to be 3 years out of high school before entering the NFL, meaning they're likely completing 3 years of college.  So having a 50% rate that enter with a degree isn't surprising and if anything, I would have guessed slightly higher.

    21% of NBA is essentially the real topic because it's where you can jump out of high school and into the pros (I know MLB also allows this but I'd argue that MLB is different because of their minor league system). 

    I'm not saying athletes can't or don't ever go back to finish a degree, because clearly you can find examples.  But I'd ask for a better study that polled all of the athletes not just a sample of some of the top names.  But I'm not sure if this exists or would be too difficult to do or maintain.

    In terms of saying, education = guaranteed success, I wouldn't say that.  Plenty of people get advanced degrees and don't know what to do with it.  What I would say is that with a higher education the chances of obtaining success (or a higher paying job) increase vs. not having higher education.

    In terms of "Being an athlete for the school IS their job" I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with this.  The way I see that statement is what a minor league farm system is.  That might be the mentality of the athlete entering the school but I doubt all of the administration would agree with that, otherwise, why even make athletes meet GPA requirements if sports is there only job. 

    I'd also say that comparing businesses and employees to schools and student athletes a bit of a stretch and say that's more apples to oranges.  But essentially, to get a career in the industry I wanted, schooling was required.  Do I use exactly what I was taught to do in school to my actual job?  No.  However, what I learned was the skillset and general foundation that I could apply to my eventual job. 

    The bottom line is ultimately just going to have to agree to disagree.  I do believe that the student athletes do get taken advantage of by the colleges/universities and that some form of compensation should be made but what that is, I don't know and how to determine what's fair and what's not isn't a simple solution.  Simmons can complain that LSU and the NCAA took advantage of him but I'd argue that if all he really wanted was to get paid and wait 1 year in order to achieve his dream, then he easily could have gone overseas and played in a league and gotten paid and then get drafted.  But he voluntarily chose to go LSU knowing what the rules were ahead of time.  For his own sake, I hope once he recovers from his current injury he's capable of having an awesome and successful career.

  • Ok, so let's use Kwame as the example.  So, he made 63 million over 10 years.  Coming out of high school, he would be roughly 28 after those 10 years.  I'd ask, about how much of that 63 million did he actually receive (vs. paying taxes and having to pay an agent and other people that take a percentage) and how much did he spend right away and what's left over?  Because, what's left over is what he has to live off of from the age of 28 and on.  Then, he has to go and find another source of income to sustain himself and others that he's currently taking care of (if any).  Something tells me that a person in that situation will need more than the remaining of the original 63 million over the 10 years that he made (case in point, look at someone like Antoine Walker who made over 100 million and is now broke).

    As for the whole athlete that can go back and get a degree, unless you have some sort of statistical report to show me, I don't think I'm going to buy it.  A lot of these guys say they'll go back and finish but how many actually do?  I'd be willing to bet that less than 50% go back and it's probably lower than that.  I mean, if your life focus is on playing 1 particular sport from say the age of 8 to 10 and you practice over and over and all throughout high school this is your goal and you're forced to go to college with the sole purpose of going pro, then how much desire and attention and focus are you really putting into school/education?  So, after say a 10 to 15 year career, then your effort level and desire will turn to "well, now it's time to go back and learn about some stuff that I haven't needed my entire life thus far"?  That's where I fail to buy in.  However, if I'm totally wrong and majority of these athletes are going back to school to get a degree, EXCELLENT, happy to hear it.  But I just don't think it's in their mindset to do that.

    However, the whole conversation of teaching these kids how to manage their money and not spend it all is something that is extremely critical.  But part of that is also having the right type of people around them that actually want the best for that person as oppose to really just viewing the person as a potential and personal ATM and leeching off of them.  But really, if you give an 18yr old 50 million dollars, how many of them are really going to think long term even if you make them attend a class or two about managing their money?

    And I guess the playing overseas was part of my point about Simmons.  If he felt so insulted about having to go to a college because he knew that he was just doing it to kill some time before he was allowed to go pro, then why didn't he just go overseas and earn some money during that 1 year?  I'd really like to see his response to that question.  Because to me, it sounds like that was the perfect solution to his attitude (and Brandon Jennings already showed this was possible). 

    "Why do we think these athletes are incapable of weighing the risk/reward in a situation like this? Why do you think you have more insight and perspective to make an informed decision on this than the athlete who is weighing those options?"

    As for this question, I'd say the same reason why the gov't takes money out of paycheck to make everyone pay for social security.  Because sometimes, people don't always make the best decisions for themselves.  Especially if they have other people with their own agendas trying to influence them.

    "Keep in mind that a good portion of these athletes aren't always the best off, and that draft day could change the lives of not only that player but his entire family."

    And what happens to the player that leaves college early and hires an agent because they are being told that they have a shot to be a 1st rounder and then draft day comes and they don't get drafted or get drafted much later and then never make it?  Well, then they can't go back to school to play sports because they forfeited their rights (which maybe that should be changed) and then they can either attempt to get a degree or they can go overseas and hope that they have enough talent to make it over there.

    63 million, even pre-tax, is substantially more than most of us will see in our entire lifetimes. Even then, like as a former NBA player includes a number of other opportunities regardless of a college degree. Anything from coaching to play by play announcer to managing basketball teams.

    As for why didn't he go pro overseas for a year instead of going to school, unfortunately going overseas would hurt his draft prospects. Overseas teams are not interested in developing a player that is looking to leave soon, so he might have ended up riding the bench or, worse, having a huge buyout clause. Brandon Jennings was the #1 high school prospect, went to Europe, rode the bench on an Euro team, and then was drafted 10th losing a lot of money.


    KingKobra
  • ......if sports is there only job. 


    Never meant only. But thinking they'd have the time to maintain a regular job to support themselves on top of being an athlete on top of being a student is unreasonable.

    Also, knowing that the system is set up to take advantage of you going in doesn't remove the blame from the system for taking advantage in the first place.
  • Ok, understanding that the system has a problem in taking advantage of the athlete, doesn't the system give the athlete a platform to help themselves generate more money for themselves.  As stated in this post:

    "As for why didn't he go pro overseas for a year instead of going to school, unfortunately going overseas would hurt his draft prospects. Overseas teams are not interested in developing a player that is looking to leave soon, so he might have ended up riding the bench or, worse, having a huge buyout clause. Brandon Jennings was the #1 high school prospect, went to Europe, rode the bench on an Euro team, and then was drafted 10th losing a lot of money."

    So, if I'm following the logic, had Brandon Jennings gone to a top basketball school and showcased his talent in college basketball and excelled, then Brandon Jennings is increasing his earning potential by getting drafted #1 vs. #10.  So, then Brandon Jennings is using the school to help benefit himself and get some form of compensation back for himself.  So, in a small way, the player does work the system to their advantage as well.  But as I mentioned, I would be in agreement that the school overall is reaping more of the benefits.

  • calebthrowercalebthrower South Carolina
    I think treating the school aspect as an after thought is really just a basketball issue. A freshman goes to college....in order to compete in the sport (which is primarily a second semester sport) a player only has to make passing grades for the first semester. They are then academically eligible for the spring when a majority of the season takes place. That is why many high profile say screw class in the spring, they have already met the requirements to play their one year then they go. Football on the other hand requires they player to be three years removed from HS. Giving up on the academic component is not an option for the high profile players if they wish to keep playing (unless there are some shady dealings which I know goes on). Very rarely do you hear a football player come out and talk about not going to class...football and academics go hand in hand. Too bad basketball cant figure out a way to emphasize the academic portion of the college experience even for the best players that will only be there a year
  • So, if I'm following the logic, had Brandon Jennings gone to a top basketball school and showcased his talent in college basketball and excelled, then Brandon Jennings is increasing his earning potential by getting drafted #1 vs. #10.  So, then Brandon Jennings is using the school to help benefit himself and get some form of compensation back for himself.  So, in a small way, the player does work the system to their advantage as well.  But as I mentioned, I would be in agreement that the school overall is reaping more of the benefits.

    How does future earning potential help "Brandon Jennings" eat TODAY? How does it help him pay a bill due tomorrow? What if he has a kid or a sick mother? Does future earning potential keep them warm every night until he's able to capitalize on this benefit? How does it negate the fact that an organization is profiting handsomely off of his hard work with no return?

    But yeah, agree to disagree. Cuz how anyone could argue against paying kids a reasonable stipend on behalf of a multimillion dollar org is beyond my comprehension.

    KingKobra
  • Ok, understanding that the system has a problem in taking advantage of the athlete, doesn't the system give the athlete a platform to help themselves generate more money for themselves.  As stated in this post:

    "As for why didn't he go pro overseas for a year instead of going to school, unfortunately going overseas would hurt his draft prospects. Overseas teams are not interested in developing a player that is looking to leave soon, so he might have ended up riding the bench or, worse, having a huge buyout clause. Brandon Jennings was the #1 high school prospect, went to Europe, rode the bench on an Euro team, and then was drafted 10th losing a lot of money."

    So, if I'm following the logic, had Brandon Jennings gone to a top basketball school and showcased his talent in college basketball and excelled, then Brandon Jennings is increasing his earning potential by getting drafted #1 vs. #10.  So, then Brandon Jennings is using the school to help benefit himself and get some form of compensation back for himself.  So, in a small way, the player does work the system to their advantage as well.  But as I mentioned, I would be in agreement that the school overall is reaping more of the benefits.

    It is helping in comparison to playing in Europe. It is hurting in comparison to just being able to go and be drafted by the NBA.
    KingKobra
  • NFL players have to be 3 years out of high school before entering the NFL, meaning they're likely completing 3 years of college.  So having a 50% rate that enter with a degree isn't surprising and if anything, I would have guessed slightly higher.

    21% of NBA is essentially the real topic because it's where you can jump out of high school and into the pros (I know MLB also allows this but I'd argue that MLB is different because of their minor league system). 

    I'm not saying athletes can't or don't ever go back to finish a degree, because clearly you can find examples.  But I'd ask for a better study that polled all of the athletes not just a sample of some of the top names.  But I'm not sure if this exists or would be too difficult to do or maintain.

    In terms of saying, education = guaranteed success, I wouldn't say that.  Plenty of people get advanced degrees and don't know what to do with it.  What I would say is that with a higher education the chances of obtaining success (or a higher paying job) increase vs. not having higher education.

    In terms of "Being an athlete for the school IS their job" I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with this.  The way I see that statement is what a minor league farm system is.  That might be the mentality of the athlete entering the school but I doubt all of the administration would agree with that, otherwise, why even make athletes meet GPA requirements if sports is there only job. 

    I'd also say that comparing businesses and employees to schools and student athletes a bit of a stretch and say that's more apples to oranges.  But essentially, to get a career in the industry I wanted, schooling was required.  Do I use exactly what I was taught to do in school to my actual job?  No.  However, what I learned was the skillset and general foundation that I could apply to my eventual job. 

    The bottom line is ultimately just going to have to agree to disagree.  I do believe that the student athletes do get taken advantage of by the colleges/universities and that some form of compensation should be made but what that is, I don't know and how to determine what's fair and what's not isn't a simple solution.  Simmons can complain that LSU and the NCAA took advantage of him but I'd argue that if all he really wanted was to get paid and wait 1 year in order to achieve his dream, then he easily could have gone overseas and played in a league and gotten paid and then get drafted.  But he voluntarily chose to go LSU knowing what the rules were ahead of time.  For his own sake, I hope once he recovers from his current injury he's capable of having an awesome and successful career.

    FYI, Ben Simmons is Australian and the league in Australia is not strong with its competition.  He could have chanced it like Dante Exum did two years ago.  
  • I do think that these athletes are being taken advantage of, but Ben Simmons is not the one to make the argument in my opinion.  For the most part, it is almost consensus that Simmons would be the top overall pick in the 2016 NBA draft.  I don't necessarily think he really needed to go to collegiate athletics to solidify that.  I know the Australian league is not as strong as the Euroleague so he was looking for stronger competition.  The fact of the matter to me is if someone is deemed a NBA protege or NBA caliber before entering college, they should not be in college.  College should be reserved for amateurs and late bloomers like Kris Dunn, Damien Lillard & C J McCollum.
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    edited November 2016
    I've had this argument countless times. I am on the NCAA side of not paying.

    Here's why.

    1. A free education. If they don't get a degree that's on them not the school. And if they are leaving early then it's probably because they are getting drafted and making good money.
    2. Amazing world class facilities you get to use for free to train and prepare for the NBA NFL etc. If I wanted to use amazing facilities to hone my skills I'd have to pay a lot of money to do it.
    3. Free exposure to all of your potential employers. Most normal people either have to do an internship(not paid as well) or send millions of resumes and pray. I wish I had an outlet where I could showcase my skills to the employers I would like to work with instead of being application number 1237.
    4. Most schools don't make any money on their athletics and many actually take money away from other parts of the school to pay for the stadiums, facilities and scholarships. Paying all Athletes would make this worse and probably drive up normal tuition for non Athletes.

    The only way I see this work as someone else mentioned is they get a cut of their own jersey sales and can sign promotional deals, commercials and anything else outside of the school.
  • Hatorian said:

    I've had this argument countless times. I am on the NCAA side of not paying.

    Here's why.

    1. A free education. If they don't get a degree that's on them not the school. And if they are leaving early then it's probably because they are getting drafted and making good money.
    2. Amazing world class facilities you get to use for free to train and prepare for the NBA NFL etc. If I wanted to use amazing facilities to hone my skills I'd have to pay a lot of money to do it.
    3. Free exposure to all of your potential employers. Most normal people either have to do an internship(not paid as well) or send millions of resumes and pray. I wish I had an outlet where I could showcase my skills to the employers I would like to work with instead of being application number 1237.
    4. Most schools don't make any money on their athletics and many actually take money away from other parts of the school to pay for the stadiums, facilities and scholarships. Paying all Athletes would make this worse and probably drive up normal tuition for non Athletes.

    The only way I see this work as someone else mentioned is they get a cut of their own jersey sales and can sign promotional deals, commercials and anything else outside of the school.


    You realize coaches making $6-$8 million per year have no incentive of curtailing training and practices for its players for them enough time to study.  There are ways to circumvent the practice hour limits.  "Student-athletes" are stirred towards majors that make it easier to stay eligible.  Remember that scholarships have to be renewed every year so those players at the margins probably have to sacrifice academics to ensure they are able to be on the team because, you know, athletics is the reason they are able to "receive" this education.  Which are you going to spend more time on?  This whole thing is problematic as fuck.
  • Ok, understanding that the system has a problem in taking advantage of the athlete, doesn't the system give the athlete a platform to help themselves generate more money for themselves.  As stated in this post:

    "As for why didn't he go pro overseas for a year instead of going to school, unfortunately going overseas would hurt his draft prospects. Overseas teams are not interested in developing a player that is looking to leave soon, so he might have ended up riding the bench or, worse, having a huge buyout clause. Brandon Jennings was the #1 high school prospect, went to Europe, rode the bench on an Euro team, and then was drafted 10th losing a lot of money."

    So, if I'm following the logic, had Brandon Jennings gone to a top basketball school and showcased his talent in college basketball and excelled, then Brandon Jennings is increasing his earning potential by getting drafted #1 vs. #10.  So, then Brandon Jennings is using the school to help benefit himself and get some form of compensation back for himself.  So, in a small way, the player does work the system to their advantage as well.  But as I mentioned, I would be in agreement that the school overall is reaping more of the benefits.

    I doubt Brandon Jennings would have moved up much in the draft if he went to college.  Looking at the draft order at best he would have been picked #6 or #7.  Blake Griffin, James Harden & Ricky Rubio definitely were rated higher than him.  Thabeet is 7'2" and should have been a defensive and rebounding presence.  Tyreke Evans had the size.
  • Hatorian said:

    I've had this argument countless times. I am on the NCAA side of not paying.

    Here's why.

    1. A free education. If they don't get a degree that's on them not the school. And if they are leaving early then it's probably because they are getting drafted and making good money.
    2. Amazing world class facilities you get to use for free to train and prepare for the NBA NFL etc. If I wanted to use amazing facilities to hone my skills I'd have to pay a lot of money to do it.
    3. Free exposure to all of your potential employers. Most normal people either have to do an internship(not paid as well) or send millions of resumes and pray. I wish I had an outlet where I could showcase my skills to the employers I would like to work with instead of being application number 1237.
    4. Most schools don't make any money on their athletics and many actually take money away from other parts of the school to pay for the stadiums, facilities and scholarships. Paying all Athletes would make this worse and probably drive up normal tuition for non Athletes.

    The only way I see this work as someone else mentioned is they get a cut of their own jersey sales and can sign promotional deals, commercials and anything else outside of the school.


    You realize coaches making $6-$8 million per year have no incentive of curtailing training and practices for its players for them enough time to study.  There are ways to circumvent the practice hour limits.  "Student-athletes" are stirred towards majors that make it easier to stay eligible.  Remember that scholarships have to be renewed every year so those players at the margins probably have to sacrifice academics to ensure they are able to be on the team because, you know, athletics is the reason they are able to "receive" this education.  Which are you going to spend more time on?  This whole thing is problematic as fuck.

    Not going to disagree there's problems. There are better ways to manage this. Putting a cap on coaches salaries would be a start. Especially for the hundreds of schools that are losing money on sports. Normal students should not be paying out of their tuition.
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