Wrath of Khan Discussion

anubus21

Enjoying the cast! Thanks a ton guys! What I meant by the Chekhov redux was how Khan recognizes him and says his name on the Botany Bay when captured. The reason it doesn't make sense is because Khan's episode on the original show was before the Chekhov character was introduced in the series. Obviously it makes sense that Chekhov would have heard of Khan and the ship, but not vice versa. @A_Ron_Hubbard

Frakkin T

I have an explanation for this! Chekov could have been stationed on the Enterprise during season 1 but he wasn't on the bridge. Khan recognized his face from having looked through the Enterprise's computers when he took over the ship. (He is genetically enhanced, after all.)

voodoorat

anubus21 said:

Enjoying the cast! Thanks a ton guys! What I meant by the Chekhov redux was how Khan recognizes him and says his name on the Botany Bay when captured. The reason it doesn't make sense is because Khan's episode on the original show was before the Chekhov character was introduced in the series. Obviously it makes sense that Chekhov would have heard of Khan and the ship, but not vice versa. @A_Ron_Hubbard

no, thank YOU!

A_Ron_Hubbard

Ah yes, I remember that being mentioned. I think Frakkin is right, that's the current rationalization. I say current because there are like four different explanations for why Klingons developed forehead ridges between TOS and the first movie, and who knows if there is a Trek comic or book out there that blows the lid off the Chekov / Khan relationship.

Thanks again, that was a fun one. Wish we live watched our viewing, we were having a ball with it!

OldGriswold

KHAAAAAN!!

GredalBee

This is one of those glitch in the matrix movies for me.  I always thought Ricardo Montalbán was nominated for an Oscar in Wrath of Khan.  He wasn't nominated by anyone as far as I can tell.  I don't know where that came from, but I've always thought that.  Oh well, I guess I'll store that away next to my Sinbad Shazaam VHS tape.

anubus21

@A_Ron_Hubbard I will admit I have a soft spot for The Voyage Home because of the comedy and whales. Where would you rank the rest of the original and TNG movies? (I count the new 3 Star Trek films as completely separate)

voodoorat

anubus21 said:

@A_Ron_Hubbard I will admit I have a soft spot for The Voyage Home because of the comedy and whales. Where would you rank the rest of the original and TNG movies? (I count the new 3 Star Trek films as completely separate)

me too.  i think part of it too is that iv hit me at around the right time--i was 13 years old in 1986.

Dummy

I kinda wonder which Star Trek "Generations" counts towards. I always place it with the TNG movies, but Jim was completely against that idea (understandably). I refuse to put it with the Kirk movies. Can we all just agree that it doesn't exist? My personal ranking is:

1. Wrath of Kahn

2. Search for Spock

3. The Voyage Home

4. The Undiscovered Country

5. The Final Frontier

6. The Motion Picture

gdogsl

TOS Ranking:

1. Wrath of Kahn

2. Undiscovered Country

3. Voyage Home

4. Generations

5. Search for Spock

6. The Motion Picture

7. The Final Frontier

TNG Ranking:

1. First Contact

2. Generations

3. Insurrection

4. Nemesis

Kelvin Trek:

1. Beyond

2. 2009

3. Into Darkness

Might as well do a combined list:

1. Wrath of Kahn

2. Undiscovered Country

3. First Contact

4. Voyage Home

5. Beyond

6. 2009

7. Generations

8. Search for Spock

9. Into Darkness

10. The Motion Picture

11. Insurrection

12. The Final Frontier

13. Nemesis

DrKen

Lot of First Contact love going around.

I don't think they ever did a good TNG movie. Full disclosure, I love TNG. I'm a veteran of many rewatches.

I never liked how they spent 3 movies trying to make Data the comic relief. He was the most interesting character they had and it took Nemesis for them to take him seriously and that movie was hot garbage.

Doctor_Nick

I'm glad Undiscovered Country seems to be getting love. It was a really strong last rodeo for the original crew.  

Looking at the list I'm not sure I saw Insurrection and I'm sorry I saw Nemesis.  I guess I should track down Beyond  as I didn't bother after the last modern one...

Frakkin T

I don't like to get into numbered ranking, especially with Trek, my oldest and most treasured fandom. I do agree with most that Khan and The Voyage Home are probably the two best, but I also think that Search for Spock and The Motion Picture are criminally underrated. The TNG movies were ok, except Insurrection and Nemesis, but at least Nemesis gave us Tom Hardy about a decade before he blew up. (And Ron Perlman!?) I don't have a problem with the new ones, except Into Darkness. That movie was unmitigated dogshit, period. I would go absolutely bonkers if they decided to go back and do a Deep Space Nine movie with the original cast, but that series wasn't even popular enough when it was on to make the jump to cinema. It's a damn shame.

OldGriswold

I liked "Generations".

I think it was because it was the first time I'd ever watched a Captain Picard, though.

OldGriswold

Still probably my favourite scene from all Star Trek though, Shatner doesn't even overact much

Natter Cast

We just formed a planet using a highly experimental Genesis probe.  Quick! Get Spock's DNA all over that shit!

Natter Cast

I don't recall, but do they say that Kirk *failed* the Kobayashi Maru twice? Or just that he took it three times?

If it's a test of character, Kirk's persistence in trying to win reveals his character.  

Natter Cast

Trek characters love classical music and Shakespeare because they're out of copyright

Natter Cast

Chekov had no feelings about Khan in the original series. He hadn't been cast yet. 

Natter Cast

"Sauce for the goose" was apt in that scene. The phrase "what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" means "if something has an effect on me, it also has an effect on you."

Kirk was "laughing at the superior intellect" to lure Khan into the nebula because the Reliant was relatively unharmed, with fully enabled sensors, where the Entireprise was flying nearly blind.

By going into the nebula, both ships become blind. That is what Spock means by "the odds will be even."  The nebula neutralize's Khan's advantage.

Natter Cast

"You think you're smarter than me."
"No, I know I'm not smarter than you."
"Then how did you catch me?"
"You have disadvantages."
"What disadvantages?"

"You're insane."

- Hannibal Lecter and Will Graham, Red Dragon

A_Ron_Hubbard

Honestly, I think Wrath and Voyage are my favorite. Voyage is more fun, so it's probably my favorite (note, not best), and I think Undiscovered Country is just behind those two, as it's a good mix of both. Good villain, and some decent light comedy at the prison planet and during the dinner scene. The other thing I appreciate about ST VI is it was the last Star Trek movie to have a relevant social message. A nice take on the close of the cold war.

OldGriswold

A_Ron_Hubbard said:

Honestly, I think Wrath and Voyage are my favorite. Voyage is more fun, so it's probably my favorite (note, not best), and I think Undiscovered Country is just behind those two, as it's a good mix of both. Good villain, and some decent light comedy at the prison planet and during the dinner scene. The other thing I appreciate about ST VI is it was the last Star Trek movie to have a relevant social message. A nice take on the close of the cold war.

"If I can change, and YOU can change, EVERYBODY can change!"

Doshy

Got to agree.  

Voyage is just so much fun to watch.  

Wrath is by far the best one for me though.

You can take all the new ones and blow them up.  Way too many problems with rewriting the canon.  (and blowing up Vulcan) Also, they make Starship fights into fast paced fighter shoot-em-ups and don't really have a message. 

To me the best Star Trek films had a message even if they didn't take themselves seriously. 

Into Darkness was a steaming piece of mule dung!  No real reason to use Khan as the villain there and the plot was just asinine. 

alexander.klassen

Isn't Generations the one where Malcolm McDowell says "time is the fire in which we all burn?" I remember loving that movie, but now that I know it's so reviled I'm both curious and hesitant to rewatch it.

DrKen

I didn't have that big of a problem with Generations.  I thought the Kirk/Picard stuff was pretty good.

First Contact was pretty good.  The rest of the TNG movies you can stick in a sack and throw them in the river.

anubus21

Only made it about halfway through Insurrection and had to turn it off

FernNYC17

anubus21 said:

Only made it about halfway through Insurrection and had to turn it off

When Data became a flotation device was when i said ok i'm done here. 

A_Ron_Hubbard

DrKen said:

I didn't have that big of a problem with Generations.  I thought the Kirk/Picard stuff was pretty good.

First Contact was pretty good.  The rest of the TNG movies you can stick in a sack and throw them in the river.

Yeah, Generations isn't bad, it's just not particularly good.  A sort of weak villain, felt more like a double episode and less like a feature film, similar to The Motion Picture come to think of it. And they blew up the Big E, which I personally thought was a mistake.  The E-D as a Galaxy-class is an all time classic, the Sovereign-class Enterprise is just another starship.