303 - The Law of Non-Contradiction

A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
Director: John Cameron
Writer: Matt Wolpert & Ben Nedivi

Comments

  • fidozfidoz Houston
    Is that the diner from Pulp Fiction?
  • UnderwoodUnderwood Philadelphia, PA
    That was a great episode. I can't stress enough how amazing an actor, Carrie Coon is.
    GredalBeeMelonusk
  • edited May 4
    That was the first great episode of the season and I enjoyed almost everything about it.  This season hasn't been as colorful as the first two and there's a lot of weird shit that's not quite aces.  But the style in this episode finally overcame the shtick and helped elevate the material.  So much more cinematic and there was some great editing too.

    I also feel like there's a melancholy to this season that's not present in others.  Loss and grief are being explored here, which surprisingly hasn't been dealt with much with all the death in the series.  I don't like Gloria as much as Molly, but I'm starting to warm up to her and understand the character as she investigates copes with familial loss.

    And Mac.  Oh Mac.  Great job FX, Hawley and everybody who made that happen.
    UnderwoodMelonuskElisa
  • Tom_ATom_A Carcosa
    Noah Hawley jumped the shark with this episode.
  • tcedwardstcedwards Santa Barbara, CA
    My favorite episode this season, even though it didn't feel like it did anything other than explain why Ennis changed his name.

    Observations:

    1. That guy from Always Sunny is here. Oh, he's a jerk. Okay.
    2. That guy from Twin Peaks in here. Oh, he's okay. Okay.
    3. Gloria on the beach is just like the picture in Barton Fink (also about coming to LA)
    4. The BOX reminds me of of the movie Kiss Me Deadly. Also has glowing box and also set in LA.
    5. Wait, who's shoes were they in the closet?
    6. That guy that plays Mac in the Mac vs. PC ads is here. Oh, he's not. Are you sure?
    7. Did Arby's pay for airtime or are they're just being colloquial? Either way, I'm off to get some curly fries.
    C0915Elisa
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    Mac! Got Dennis season 1 now Mac season 3. Awesome.
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    fidoz said:

    Is that the diner from Pulp Fiction?

    It looks like Norm's. I don't know if Norms was the pulp fiction diner, but that Diner in the episode looks like Norms (a 24 diner chain in LA
    Elisa
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    That LA cop was like pure douche. Like KenWins from breaking bad would watch this episode and call him a douche. And I don't know why he's even in the episode after he takes Gloria's report.

    Now Zimmerman, so he obviously scammed Thad, but was he ever a movie producer? He's got all these posters on the wall and you have the impression he actually makes movies, so who does he scam and who does he produce? Or does he produce nothing and is a pure scam artist ?
  • DaveyMacDaveyMac Tokyo
    edited May 4
    I wasn't really feeling this episode at all. I mean it was really well made and I liked the idea behind it and getting out of the typical Fargo locale, but I just found it kind of boring and uninteresting. I was kind of with it until the scene in the bar and that's when it started to lose me. I mean, I don't get the point of making the cop that douchy. At least when the Coens have douchy characters, they at least make them entertaining. Maybe they were trying to say something about social media causing people to lose their inhibitions in real life and just be unpleasant? I don't know...the scene didn't really seem to have anything interesting to say about social media, which I know is supposed to be a big thing this season. 

    Also, this episode took a ridiculous amount of visual cues and some scenes from The Big Lebowski, Barton Fink, and No Country For Old Men. I've enjoyed a lot of Coen nods in the past, but here, when I wasn't enjoying the episode they kind of grated on me as the episode went along. 

    I didn't think of Pulp Fiction when I saw the diner. The Big Lebowski is what came to mind. The hotel was also straight out of No Country. And the writer's guild was Barton Fink.

    Anyway, I hate to be so negative on the episode, when it did so many things right technically and Carrie Coon was great. It just didn't vibe with me, and this was the first one of the season that I didn't enjoy.

    image

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    Guy
  • fidozfidoz Houston
    Definitely not the Pulp Fiction diner. Apparently it was demolished in 2014.
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    It's actually the same diner the Nihilists from The Big Lewbowski met up at.  

    image
  • I had Marvin the android (Hitchhiker's Guide) in mind the entire time the animated Wyh segments were on; it actually seemed surprisingly brief a stay (several million years) as opposed to Marvin being stranded through several universe lifetimes...
  • fidozfidoz Houston
    I wanted to bash that robot into tiny pieces every time I heard his fucking voice. 
  • Tom_ATom_A Carcosa
    Honestly the cartoon and the 70's scenes did absolutely nothing for me other than test my patience. It was just a flub of an episode. I think Noah Hawley is really trying to shoehorn too much shit in this show to the point that it's becoming distracting.
  • As a Carry Coon fan I was devastated when the Leftovers Nora episode was a big letdown for me. Who would have thought that Fargo would bring the Coon episode I was craving. After a day of contemplating I think this might be the best hour of television I have seen this year. Loved it. 
    Elisa
  • While I liked the cartoon bit, and CC as usual put through a stellar performance, this epsidoe was just "meh" to me. While this did give background on her SF (something like that..) for me I'm going to have to reserve judgment so that I can see how this fits into the bigger picture (besides the last 5 min getting the needed answer to move the plot forward).
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited May 5
    There's all kinds of weirdness about this LA subplot.

    Isn't Ennis supposed to be born in 1928?  That means Ennis the author is 47 in 1975.  Not so much of a kid, and the actor playing him sure doesn't look that old. 

    Also, I know science fiction was stereotypically a ghetto full of sad sack weirdos in the 1970s, but even if you believe that, those guys had agents.Particularly an award winning author for best novel, he probably had an agent.   Agents who could arrange movie writing deals. Agents who would prevent a writer needing to front his own money to someone who was supposed to be paying him.
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA

    There's all kinds of weirdness about this LA subplot.


    Isn't Ennis supposed to be born in 1928?  That means Ennis the author is 47 in 1975.  Not so much of a kid, and the actor playing him sure doesn't look that old. 

    Also, I know science fiction was stereotypically a ghetto full of sad sack weirdos in the 1970s, but even if you believe that, those guys had agents.Particularly an award winning author for best novel, he probably had an agent.   Agents who could arrange movie writing deals. Agents who would prevent a writer needing to front his own money to someone who was supposed to be paying him.
    There is one explanation for the age, remember we are supposed to presume that Ennis doesn't actually exist, he's an assumed identity of Thaddeus, maybe Ennis made himself out to be older after moving to Minnesota? Set your self out to be 50 when maybe you're 38, that's not outside the realm of possibility. And by the time we see him as Ennius he's an imbittered drunk, a hard life of drinking and smoking can definitely make a 70yo look in his 80s

    UnderwoodElisa
  • DaveyMacDaveyMac Tokyo
    The animation sequences in this episode really reminded me of a great short film from a couple of years ago called World of Tomorrow. I'd highly recommend it. 

    https://vimeo.com/ondemand/worldoftomorrow

    It was on netflix for a while, but I'm not sure if it is still.
    UnderwoodElisa
  • edited May 5
    DaveyMac said:

    The animation sequences in this episode really reminded me of a great short film from a couple of years ago called World of Tomorrow. I'd highly recommend it. 


    https://vimeo.com/ondemand/worldoftomorrow

    It was on netflix for a while, but I'm not sure if it is still.
    It's on US Netflix. Not sure about other countries. Anyone with 16 minutes to spare should definitely check it out.
    DaveyMac
  • CretanBullCretanBull Toronto
    edited May 5

    It's not an exact parallel by any means, but the robot vaguely reminded me of Hitchbot.  If you're unfamiliar with Hitchbot, he was a Canadian built robot that was left on the side of the road on the East coast of Canada and was given the goal to hitch-hike his way across Canada to the West coast.  It wasn't overly sophisticated, but it could perform basic functions ("I can help!"), talk, compose and post its own tweets etc.

    After first going across Canada (I think it took about a month), it then went across Europe too.  Unfortunately, they tried to have him cross America and it got destroyed in Philadelphia.  Seeing the harmless Fargo robot getting beating by people in the cartoon sequence made me think of Hitchbot.

    Melia004
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    edited May 5
    ^^^ What @DaveyMac said goes for me too.

    @CretanBull i learned about Hitchbot (and his fate) from @Wahl_e in the old Personal Arrogants podcast. Bloody Philadelphia. :-(
    DaveyMac
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    So no surprise young and older Vivian are mother and daughter.  A little surprised that young Vivian is the daughter of Clint Eastwood.

    Also, I knew I had seen the producer before.  He's Fred Melamed, the guy who played Michael Stuhlbarg's tormenter, Sy (see what they're doing here?) Ableman in A Serious Man.
    MackWElisaMelonusk
  • edited May 5
    As above, I wanted to note the continued homage to A Serious Man.

    I also wanted to note that I feel a throwback to some David Lynch. In particular, the contradiction machine; It cant be turned on. No matter what you do, the outcome is the same. Fate has determined the box must be turned off. It may be related to technology not working for her, I doubt it. But something about the way that box is portrayed is somewhat creepy. The shoes behind the curtain, the randomness of those and the box, creepy. David Lynch creepy, not outright frightening, just weird and creepy.
    Including Ray Wise from Twin Peaks for what seemed like a mostly pointless part seemed to nod that way as well.
    Zimmerman's post accident voice box monologue also seemed somewhat David Lynchish.

    Secondly, I wonder if Ennis, Thad, committed suicide. That would be ironic. Imagine that if he had just, or was in process of, committing suicide when Maurice broke in, and the murder of Maurice then was ultimately unnecessary. In the event that becomes true, Ray is currently the only murderer.

    "Of course you do. Because you're not a cold hearted killer."

    I appreciate the Hitchiker's comments above, but myself was picking up more of a Kurt Vonnegut vibe.
    ElisaKela15
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    edited May 6

    There's all kinds of weirdness about this LA subplot.


    Isn't Ennis supposed to be born in 1928?  That means Ennis the author is 47 in 1975.  Not so much of a kid, and the actor playing him sure doesn't look that old. 

    Also, I know science fiction was stereotypically a ghetto full of sad sack weirdos in the 1970s, but even if you believe that, those guys had agents.Particularly an award winning author for best novel, he probably had an agent.   Agents who could arrange movie writing deals. Agents who would prevent a writer needing to front his own money to someone who was supposed to be paying him.
    There's another thought I have to this, have you ever watched The Shawshank Redemption? remember how Andy creates a fictional person on paper for the money he's laundering for the warden?
    so I think that subplot of the movie occurs in the late sixties to mid seventies right? I mean you would represent yourself as being older because if you're starting anew under a new fictional identity life is still eaiser with a birth certificate, and my understanding it prior to 90s getting a BC or a social security card issued new was much easier at the time, so you'd represent yourself being born in 1928 in some rural logging town that no longer functionally exists, home birth of course, and the mother and midwife are long dead, hell if you're really crafty you could go through the 1910 census pick some woman living alone who's name matches an obituary, claim her as your mother (and you're an illegitimate child) and have a birth certificate issued. That's my thought, because assuming a false identity, born in the 1920s, well in 1980 (the year they reference Ennis moving to Eden Prarie ) you could easily pass yourself off, especially if dealing with the health department through the mail, as someone who's simply lived a simply life off the records and now needs one and get issued a birth certificate, once you have one you can get Identity documents issued in the new name, and live under that. but see every year more recent is a year greater in chance you get caught, so you would lie and make yourself as old as possible. 


  • CretanBullCretanBull Toronto

    There's all kinds of weirdness about this LA subplot.


    Isn't Ennis supposed to be born in 1928?  That means Ennis the author is 47 in 1975.  Not so much of a kid, and the actor playing him sure doesn't look that old. 

    Also, I know science fiction was stereotypically a ghetto full of sad sack weirdos in the 1970s, but even if you believe that, those guys had agents.Particularly an award winning author for best novel, he probably had an agent.   Agents who could arrange movie writing deals. Agents who would prevent a writer needing to front his own money to someone who was supposed to be paying him.
    There's another thought I have to this, have you ever watched The Shawshank Redemption? remember how Andy creates a fictional person on paper for the money he's laundering for the warden?
    so I think that subplot of the movie occurs in the late sixties to mid seventies right? I mean you would represent yourself as being older because if you're starting anew under a new fictional identity life is still eaiser with a birth certificate, and my understanding it prior to 90s getting a BC or a social security card issued new was much easier at the time, so you'd represent yourself being born in 1928 in some rural logging town that no longer functionally exists, home birth of course, and the mother and midwife are long dead, hell if you're really crafty you could go through the 1910 census pick some woman living alone who's name matches an obituary, claim her as your mother (and you're an illegitimate child) and have a birth certificate issued. That's my thought, because assuming a false identity, born in the 1920s, well in 1980 (the year they reference Ennis moving to Eden Prarie ) you could easily pass yourself off, especially if dealing with the health department through the mail, as someone who's simply lived a simply life off the records and now needs one and get issued a birth certificate, once you have one you can get Identity documents issued in the new name, and live under that. but see every year more recent is a year greater in chance you get caught, so you would lie and make yourself as old as possible. 


    He's also a writer of fiction, so he has an imagination to pull off that sort of thing (ie creating a new identity, backstory etc) - he essentially made a character out of himself.
    emnofseattle
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA


    He's also a writer of fiction, so he has an imagination to pull off that sort of thing (ie creating a new identity, backstory etc) - he essentially made a character out of himself.

    That's an interesting comment, so let's go back to Ennis when he was alive, and he made the religious remarks about being gay, do you think he actually is that conservative in outlook or is holding on to playing a character ?

    CretanBull
  • CretanBullCretanBull Toronto




    He's also a writer of fiction, so he has an imagination to pull off that sort of thing (ie creating a new identity, backstory etc) - he essentially made a character out of himself.

    That's an interesting comment, so let's go back to Ennis when he was alive, and he made the religious remarks about being gay, do you think he actually is that conservative in outlook or is holding on to playing a character ?



    It could go either way.  The Ennis we saw as an older man was a pretty sharp contrast to the one we saw in his youth.  We could have been seeing him playing a part, or perhaps just as likely a changed man.  If he left LA believing that he'd killed someone, maybe he found God...maybe believing that his liberal ways lead him into drug use and murder, he went in the opposite direction to atone?

    His old-age bitterness could be part of a character that he created to hide from the law, or could be a man jaded from being scammed and living with the guilt of (thinking that he'd) murdered someone.


    emnofseattle
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA




    He's also a writer of fiction, so he has an imagination to pull off that sort of thing (ie creating a new identity, backstory etc) - he essentially made a character out of himself.

    That's an interesting comment, so let's go back to Ennis when he was alive, and he made the religious remarks about being gay, do you think he actually is that conservative in outlook or is holding on to playing a character ?



    It could go either way.  The Ennis we saw as an older man was a pretty sharp contrast to the one we saw in his youth.  We could have been seeing him playing a part, or perhaps just as likely a changed man.  If he left LA believing that he'd killed someone, maybe he found God...maybe believing that his liberal ways lead him into drug use and murder, he went in the opposite direction to atone?

    His old-age bitterness could be part of a character that he created to hide from the law, or could be a man jaded from being scammed and living with the guilt of (thinking that he'd) murdered someone.


    Meh it's an interesting thought. although I was listening to another podcast where the hosts claimed they zoomed in on the checks Thaddeus was writing to Zimmerman and they were drawn on a bank in Wisconsin, I don't have DVR and watched it live so I can't go back and verify that. but if it's true we know he's kind of a midwesterner. 

    As an unrelated note, I do wonder in the 1970s if he would've even seen that much prison time, it wasn't until the crack wars that sentencing was really increased. even murder unless it was especially heinous (like killing a police officer or a sexual assault, or a mass killing or in the south, racially charged) wasn't that big a deal, murderers until the 80s routinely paroled out of prisons after 5-10-15 years. An unrelated story, a friend of mine worked at a gun shop for several years, and in the mid 1990s a guy comes in to purchase a gun, and so he fills out the form and one of the questions on the form you fill out to buy a gun from a licensed store is "have you ever been convicted of a felony" so he wrote yes then in the details section gave a full statement, the court, date, sentence, charge, etc. He had been convicted of murder in... some southern state I can't remember which, in the mid 1970s and was paroled after 8 years and sentence cleared after 10 and was given a certificate saying his rights were restored. he delayed the purchase and contacted the ATF who verified, yes he was convicted of murder, yes his rights were restored in the 80s, he could make the sale. 

    today that beating, at least in Washington would've been a minimum of 5 years, and a death would be 15 before parole is even considered. 

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