310 - "Somebody to Love"

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Comments

  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    and the fingerprint actuated gun doesn't practically exist. no commercial vendors sell it today, let alone in 2010. 
    That whole scene was BS. And who is working for who? Goldfarb is Varga's boss? who the hell is she and what strings does she pull? is she actually Varga's boss the whole time, I thought the Nikki scene in the hotel lobby was supposed to say he was the boss? WTF?

    Rest in Peace Fargo, you were good while you lasted. 
  • @emnofseattle Goldfarb is implied to be working with/for Varga, but I don't think she's his boss. And it's very likely that the fingerprint-activated gun was bullshit, Varga lying to Emmit one last time, to distract him long enough for them to knock him out.
    CretanBullKingKobraGredalBee
  • CretanBullCretanBull Toronto
    edited June 2017

    @emnofseattle Goldfarb is implied to be working with/for Varga, but I don't think she's his boss. And it's very likely that the fingerprint-activated gun was bullshit, Varga lying to Emmit one last time, to distract him long enough for them to knock him out.



    I was about to say the same thing.  Nothing implied that Goldfarb was Varga's boss.  She was likely just an unscrupulous business person who positioned herself to buy the debt-leveraged company that Varga was leaving behind - it's explained in the very next scene in the conversation between Gloria and the IRS agent.

    And with the gun...it seemed like Varga was taking advantage of Emmit's lack of gun knowledge and saying something that Emmit might have heard about, seen in a movie etc. It was coupled with Varga acting confidently and calling off his own armed guards - both of which would lend credence to what he was saying.

    SomeBiscuitKingKobra
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    I also think Nikki went really stupid, she should've been wearing gloves during the ambush and made sure her gun was wiped before leaving. then when the officer stopped with the gun being on Emmit's car she should've gone full hysterical "officer thank god you're hear we was threatening to kill me" 
  • I also think Nikki went really stupid, she should've been wearing gloves during the ambush and made sure her gun was wiped before leaving. then when the officer stopped with the gun being on Emmit's car she should've gone full hysterical "officer thank god you're hear we was threatening to kill me" 

    To what end?  She's a wanted fugitive on the run - it's not as if she could have played it out as if she was the victim, gone down to the station and pressed charges etc.
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    edited June 2017

    @emnofseattle Goldfarb is implied to be working with/for Varga, but I don't think she's his boss. And it's very likely that the fingerprint-activated gun was bullshit, Varga lying to Emmit one last time, to distract him long enough for them to knock him out.



    I was about to say the same thing.  Nothing implied that Goldfarb was Varga's boss.  She was likely just an unscrupulous business person who positioned herself to buy the debt-leveraged company that Varga was leaving behind - it's explained in the very next scene in the conversation between Gloria and the IRS agent.

    And with the gun...it seemed like Varga was taking advantage of Emmit's lack of gun knowledge and saying something that Emmit might have heard about, seen in a movie etc. It was coupled with Varga acting confidently and calling off his own armed guards - both of which would lend credence to what he was saying.

    Yeah but it is implied Goldfarb knew all about the scheme, like she didn't buy Stussey out thinking in Good faith this was a regular business deal, he starts mentioning Varga and she should be like "what the hell are you talking about who's varga?" instead she describes part of the scheme, she certainly is involved in a manner above a business transaction, this isn't venture capital buying out the family business, she clearly knows some kind of organized crime is involved here. 

    the second part is probably right, but on the other hand, I find it wierd Emmit would know nothing of guns, the types of people who fix corvettes and collect stamps, if you know anyone who follows those types of hobbies, they often correlate with people who are attracted to guns, so I find it wierd the elder Stussey had none and never took the boys shooting, especially in the Midwest. like he should at least know he can't shoot a 1911 with the hammer down, and apparently Meemo knew nothing either because no one who carries that type of gun carries it with the hammer down. hammer cocked safety on. 
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    edited June 2017

    I also think Nikki went really stupid, she should've been wearing gloves during the ambush and made sure her gun was wiped before leaving. then when the officer stopped with the gun being on Emmit's car she should've gone full hysterical "officer thank god you're hear we was threatening to kill me" 

    To what end?  She's a wanted fugitive on the run - it's not as if she could have played it out as if she was the victim, gone down to the station and pressed charges etc.
    Emmit might have gone to prison. what do they even have on her? breaking parole? the cops have nothing implicating Nikki in the escape of the bus, they clearly established the bus was targetted from the outside with the ramp. after she was targeted in jail. that would be easy to explain. They have nothing on her until she kills the trooper, who killed her back in the same swoop. I think there's even a credible self defense claim against Varga. 
  • GuyGuy with some Grist for the Mill
    @CretanBull:  You disagreed on all my points.  I'm not looking for validation, but when you do as such, you come across as a blind apologist for the show.  Fargo is one of my favorite shows and I give it a wide berth, but I just found this finale and subsequent season as meh.

    It's possible you're right about Nikki's intention for Varga.  The scene is ambiguous at best.  If she's really trying to capture him, she sure doesn't try very hard to find him again.

    If as you say her plan is to capture Varga, there is no reason for him to be photographed as he would be in custody making any video of him moot.  If you were going to plan a crime would you want to be photo'd doing it?  When they zoomed in on camera in the elevator, I thought it was Nikki and Wrench watching them.  The photos showing up in police hands just seemed off and only to serve to keep Gloria on the case.  Whatever.  it's fine I guess.

    Really? I should stop watching movies and TV if I choose to criticize troupes?  Isn't this at the heart of what it means to criticize shows and movies? Do not Jim and A-ron do this in the course of their summations?  Sometimes directors/writers use them in creative/inventive ways and are to be lauded.  Sometimes they fall back on unoriginal and lazy story telling devices and should be called out on it.  Surely, you would not argue Hauley and co. could not have come up with something better than escape out of the top of the elevator that we've all seen half a hundred times.

    Ya...i get it.  We're to believe Emmit fixed the car.  I'm no mechanic, but I cannot come up with a scenario whereas a car could drive out to the middle of nowhere, breakdown, and without parts be able to be fixed in short order by someone we have never seen has a mechanical inclination.  I just don't buy it and comes across as the writers wrote themselves into a box and used this as a easy escape route.  If you're good with it, then bully for you.  It sticks in my craw.

    This one you pissed me off on.  First off, we had a 5 month time jump from Christmas so it's spring...not fall/winter.  Secondly, even if it is the darkest days of winter with -30 windchill, who travels around with popcicles in their car?  No freezer needed?  Do you keep your car's interior below zero when you're traveling in the winter? it's just weird.  Why not a Twix or some Arby's?  Just a strange choice.

    I disagree with your assertion the scene would have distracted.  All's it would have had to have been was Mo at the storage locker crime scene with Gloria and a bemused Mo standing their confused as Gloria gives him a look and walks off.  The season made this a large plot point but it wasn't paid off in any fashion save Gloria now with DHS which is cool and all but still doesn't put Mo in his place.


    GredalBee
  • Yeah but it is implied Goldfarb knew all about the scheme, like she didn't buy Stussey out thinking in Good faith this was a regular business deal, he starts mentioning Varga and she should be like "what the hell are you talking about who's varga?" instead she describes part of the scheme, she certainly is involved in a manner above a business transaction, this isn't venture capital buying out the family business, she clearly knows some kind of organized crime is involved here. 

    I'm not saying that there was no involvement between Varga and Goldfarb, just that she wasn't his boss - and probably not a part of his organization (having a tie between the new owner and Varga seems unnecessarily risky to me).  In the conversation between Gloria and the IRS guy, he explains the scheme - Varga buys companies, borrows millions, pulls himself out and sells off the company for a fraction of its original value.  In order for his plan to work, he needs a buyer - and he needs that buyer to step in right as he leaves so there's not time for his plan to fall apart. I assume he looks for people like Goldfarb, who don't necessarily have to know the details of what's going on, just be willing to step up and buy the company when he's done with it.  The IRS guy also specifically says that its all legal, as long as taxes are paid - Goldfarb wouldn't have to know whether or not Varga was planning on paying the taxes so she wouldn't necessarily have to know that she was dealing with criminals.  It could be as simple as Varga finding someone greedy/shrewd enough to not ask too many questions.

    the second part is probably right, but on the other hand, I find it wierd Emmit would know nothing of guns, the types of people who fix corvettes and collect stamps, if you know anyone who follows those types of hobbies, they often correlate with people who are attracted to guns, so I find it wierd the elder Stussey had none and never took the boys shooting, especially in the Midwest. like he should at least know he can't shoot a 1911 with the hammer down, and apparently Meemo knew nothing either because no one who carries that type of gun carries it with the hammer down. hammer cocked safety on. 

    He's more or less depicted as the bookish, nerdy type I didn't find it a leap to think that he wouldn't know about guns.  Also consider that Varga has demonstrated he has over-reaching control of all situations, this is just an extension of that.  Emmitt is somewhat panicked, he's made a move for a gun - now what?  He's surrounded by people with more guns and his mind is racing.  Even if he knew better, given the circumstances and the established total control that Varga has it could have easily been believable in the moment.

    KingKobra
  • Emmit might have gone to prison. what do they even have on her? breaking parole? the cops have nothing implicating Nikki in the escape of the bus, they clearly established the bus was targetted from the outside with the ramp. after she was targeted in jail. that would be easy to explain. They have nothing on her until she kills the trooper, who killed her back in the same swoop. I think there's even a credible self defense claim against Varga

    She's been sent to prison and escaped custody.  Maybe Emmitt goes to jail (which she doesn't want  - she wants to kill him) but she definitely goes to jail.  Her failsafe against Varga was filming what happened at the warehouse/storage locker - she'd go to jail for life.

    KingKobra
  • edited June 2017
    And you guys thought my car complaint was too much.  Ha! I'm actually cool with most of the last 15 or so posts.  Varga the escapist, fingerprint guns, perceived smart people doing dumb things... I accept them in the Fargo-verse.  A lot of things happened, many of which stretched suspension of disbelief, and it looks like it snapped in different places for different people.

    PS - Millions of dollars and a room full of writers create The Walking Dead, so let's not put too much stock into what a room full of writers should figure out.  All the money and writers in the world and they fail at day/night continuity.
  • So I think having nicky and the stussy brothers all die was a massive waste I was so shocked when emmet was killed with the silencer. Nickys death was annoying and the reveal was a little too slow and I didn't like varga surviving because although Gloria survived I just wanted nicky or one of the brothers to live. Strange season and strange ending just annoyed at the character deaths
  • You disagreed on all my points.  I'm not looking for validation, but when you do as such, you come across as a blind apologist for the show.  Fargo is one of my favorite shows and I give it a wide berth, but I just found this finale and subsequent season as meh.

    It’s a little unfair to post comments and ask questions on a discussion board then call out someone who responds an apologist for replying.  In my view the points that you raised were either directly addressed in the show, or there was enough present to allow viewers to draw conclusions.  I was offering my take, not making excuses.

    It's possible you're right about Nikki's intention for Varga.  The scene is ambiguous at best.  If she's really trying to capture him, she sure doesn't try very hard to find him again.

    There was just a shoot out, surely the police would be called - were you expecting her to do a room by room search for Varga?  If she’s trying to kill him, why not just let Wrench do it?  She didn’t have a personal gripe with him (like she did with Emmitt), it was cat and mouse between herself and Varga.  I think that she wanted to ‘take down’ someone who arrogantly set himself as being untouchable.  She didn’t want the money (she gave it to Wrench).  The fact that she sent the zip drive to the IRS shows that she was trying to take him down, not kill him.  Now consider her plan, she devises a scenario that’s set to separate Varga from his men.  She puts the drop room as far from the elevator as possible, knowing that his men would check it out first.  Then she sends him a text telling him to get out of there, and has Wrench reveal himself at the same time – assuring that Varga would move right away and not wait for his men.  She had the whole thing recorded so if it didn’t go to plan, Varga would still get caught.  I don’t really see the ambiguity that you do.

    If as you say her plan is to capture Varga, there is no reason for him to be photographed as he would be in custody making any video of him moot.  If you were going to plan a crime would you want to be photo'd doing it?  When they zoomed in on camera in the elevator, I thought it was Nikki and Wrench watching them.  The photos showing up in police hands just seemed off and only to serve to keep Gloria on the case.  Whatever.  it's fine I guess.

    The filming is a failsafe if things don’t go according to plan, she doesn’t care if she’s filmed because she’s already a fugitive on the run.  She’s been arrested for Ray’s murder and escaped captivity, she's already facing life in prison - filming things doesn't get her into any more trouble. 

    Really? I should stop watching movies and TV if I choose to criticize troupes?  Isn't this at the heart of what it means to criticize shows and movies? Do not Jim and A-ron do this in the course of their summations?  Sometimes directors/writers use them in creative/inventive ways and are to be lauded.  Sometimes they fall back on unoriginal and lazy story telling devices and should be called out on it.  Surely, you would not argue Hauley and co. could not have come up with something better than escape out of the top of the elevator that we've all seen half a hundred times.

    My point is that tropes are tropes because they’re frequently referenced so if they’re going to stick in your craw then watching tv and movies is going to be a rough go for you.  Your view on this use as being unoriginal and lazy is entirely subjective, which is fine but you have to allow for people to disagree.

    Ya...i get it.  We're to believe Emmit fixed the car.  I'm no mechanic, but I cannot come up with a scenario whereas a car could drive out to the middle of nowhere, breakdown, and without parts be able to be fixed in short order by someone we have never seen has a mechanical inclination.  I just don't buy it and comes across as the writers wrote themselves into a box and used this as a easy escape route.  If you're good with it, then bully for you.  It sticks in my craw.

    Here’s a scenario: Nikki installed a kill-switch to shut off the car, it was activated to shut the car down.  Once the car was shut down, it was reset allowing the car to work again unless she flipped the switch again.  What evidence of this is there?  Very little.  It’s perhaps implied that she was close enough to the car to remotely shut it down by the fact that she knew he smashed his phone, so she was at least in viewing distance of the car when it shut down.  It’s also possible that she just saw the phone on the ground.  Either way, I don’t think it matters at all, it’s a nearly irrelevant point.  All we need to know is that she did something to the car that allowed for that confrontation to take place in an isolated area.  What happens afterwards is meaningless, and the episode was shot in a way that allowed the viewer to fill in the blanks because the details aren’t important.  If they didn’t think that showing the setup of that scene was important and just shorthanded it by showing a stamp on Emmitt’s forehead, why is wrapping that scene up with a shorthand of undefined cross cuts a step too far?  The purpose of the scene is the confrontation, not the mechanics that forced it or resolved it.  If they thought the mechanics were important, we'd have seen a scene of her under the hood of Emmitt's truck (or whatever) and another scene of her following him with a switch in her hand or her waiting for the truck to breakdown etc.  but none of that really mattered.


    KingKobra
  • This one you pissed me off on.  First off, we had a 5 month time jump from Christmas so it's spring...not fall/winter.  Secondly, even if it is the darkest days of winter with -30 windchill, who travels around with popcicles in their car?  No freezer needed?  Do you keep your car's interior below zero when you're traveling in the winter? it's just weird.  Why not a Twix or some Arby's?  Just a strange choice.

    These are the types of meaningless details that would bog down the show.  If they devoted screen time to Gloria figuring out where the bus was, then going to the closest store, buying the popsicle, jumping in her cruiser and speeding down the highway to catch the bus before the popsicle melted would it have been any more satisfying for the viewer?  Can’t we just fill in those unimportant blanks ourselves without seeing them as points of criticism?  Are you equally disturbed by the fact that they didn't show her making sure she had a full tank of gas before setting off to track down the school bus?  Or can we just accept these things as unimportant trivialities?  As for the time jump, whatever month is it Gloria is wearing a winter coat and boats.  In the scene before and after it Emmitt is wearing a full length wool coat and layers (a sweater, shirt etc) under it.  At the very least the weather is chilly.  For the love of her son and sake of a popsicle, Gloria turned off her heater.   I guess we’re all different, but in my mind these things don’t warrant criticism or explanation – they ultimately don’t matter and with a few seconds of thought any viewer can come up with something that makes sense.  As for it being a strange choice, I think that the popsicle is meant to imply a certain level of innocence.  Gloria is wondering what she should or shouldn't tell her son while he's trying to assert his adulthood (to some degree).  I think a popsicle has symbolic value in this sort of heart to heart, coming of age conversation taking place that Arby's wouldn't (that would just seem like lunch).  To go a step further, if this is meant to be Spring and Summer is ahead, that too is symbolic of her son's teetering/pending adulthood and given the conversation is about her effort to protect her son from the realities of the world and hang on to his youth, a popsicle is the prefect representation of that.

    I disagree with your assertion the scene would have distracted.  All's it would have had to have been was Mo at the storage locker crime scene with Gloria and a bemused Mo standing their confused as Gloria gives him a look and walks off.  The season made this a large plot point but it wasn't paid off in any fashion save Gloria now with DHS which is cool and all but still doesn't put Mo in his place.

    Would that have made sense though?  What was really known in that moment?  The case is built on the investigation that happens after what went down at the storage locker, would Moe have realized then and there that he was wrong and Gloria was right?  Would he even link that shoot out to the other crimes (which in his head have been solved)?  I don’t think that you can have that Moe/Gloria moment until all of the facts come out, which would mean a jump to a post-investigation time for the sake of that scene (and maybe some other wrap up stuff), then another time jump to Wrench killing Emmitt.  I guess if they thought it was that important they could have found a way to make it work, but obviously they didn’t and personally speaking I didn’t find it missing.
     


    KingKobra
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    edited June 2017
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    edited June 2017
    Ok I'm having trouble with the quoting feature... 

    But at any rate, this finale just falls apart for me, I loved last season and the season before it but at some point this season it's like Varga has just BS'd so much, he plays it both ways all the time where on one hand he suggest threatening to kill an IRS auditors kids and then saying "well he couldn't find us out if he had my account numbers" then while I don't usually complain about injecting politics into art because at this point I know most people in Hollywood are straight up leftists and I expect it now, just the constant overtly political messaging this entire season also detracted, I mean this was salute to the Bernie crowd, crowds of 99% peasants, Cayman Islands banks, guns with fingerprint scanners (and while we're on guns, a suppressor does not make a shot that quiet, if wrench actually did skullcap Emmit in that kitchen everyone at the table would be screaming and running in) predatory wall street practices, corrupt LE agents (corrupted by whom and to what extent is never explained, like in NYC during the heyday of the mob, everyone knew who the mafia was and who their leaders were and knew these people controlled the system to some extent, this whole "well I might have influence but might not" doesn't actually work) And then this Idea Ray is somehow a victim and Emmit was reaping the rewards of inheritence without earning it... like this whole season was overtly just a love fest of different political tropes and I think the plot was written around the politics and written around it poorly. 
  • Ok I'm having trouble with the quoting feature... 

    But at any rate, this finale just falls apart for me, I loved last season and the season before it but at some point this season it's like Varga has just BS'd so much, he plays it both ways all the time where on one hand he suggest threatening to kill an IRS auditors kids and then saying "well he couldn't find us out if he had my account numbers" then while I don't usually complain about injecting politics into art because at this point I know most people in Hollywood are straight up leftists and I expect it now, just the constant overtly political messaging this entire season also detracted, I mean this was salute to the Bernie crowd, crowds of 99% peasants, Cayman Islands banks, guns with fingerprint scanners (and while we're on guns, a suppressor does not make a shot that quiet, if wrench actually did skullcap Emmit in that kitchen everyone at the table would be screaming and running in) predatory wall street practices, corrupt LE agents (corrupted by whom and to what extent is never explained, like in NYC during the heyday of the mob, everyone knew who the mafia was and who their leaders were and knew these people controlled the system to some extent, this whole "well I might have influence but might not" doesn't actually work) And then this Idea Ray is somehow a victim and Emmit was reaping the rewards of inheritence without earning it... like this whole season was overtly just a love fest of different political tropes and I think the plot was written around the politics and written around it poorly. 



    I've had problems with the quoting feature on and off for quite awhile now - especially when I'm on my tablet (iPad 2 mini - maybe you're using the same?).

    I somewhat agree with you, but for different reasons.  I really liked this season, but thought that it was probably the weakest of the three.  To me, season 2 was the best season of TV ever so that's the clear cut best season for me, so I'm really weighing season 1 vs season 3.  Right now I'd say that season 1 was better, but I want season 3 to kick around in my head for a few days before I really commit to that.

  • Any thoughts on who will walk through the door, six men to arrest Varga or one to let him go?
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA

    Ok I'm having trouble with the quoting feature... 

    But at any rate, this finale just falls apart for me, I loved last season and the season before it but at some point this season it's like Varga has just BS'd so much, he plays it both ways all the time where on one hand he suggest threatening to kill an IRS auditors kids and then saying "well he couldn't find us out if he had my account numbers" then while I don't usually complain about injecting politics into art because at this point I know most people in Hollywood are straight up leftists and I expect it now, just the constant overtly political messaging this entire season also detracted, I mean this was salute to the Bernie crowd, crowds of 99% peasants, Cayman Islands banks, guns with fingerprint scanners (and while we're on guns, a suppressor does not make a shot that quiet, if wrench actually did skullcap Emmit in that kitchen everyone at the table would be screaming and running in) predatory wall street practices, corrupt LE agents (corrupted by whom and to what extent is never explained, like in NYC during the heyday of the mob, everyone knew who the mafia was and who their leaders were and knew these people controlled the system to some extent, this whole "well I might have influence but might not" doesn't actually work) And then this Idea Ray is somehow a victim and Emmit was reaping the rewards of inheritence without earning it... like this whole season was overtly just a love fest of different political tropes and I think the plot was written around the politics and written around it poorly. 



    I've had problems with the quoting feature on and off for quite awhile now - especially when I'm on my tablet (iPad 2 mini - maybe you're using the same?).

    I somewhat agree with you, but for different reasons.  I really liked this season, but thought that it was probably the weakest of the three.  To me, season 2 was the best season of TV ever so that's the clear cut best season for me, so I'm really weighing season 1 vs season 3.  Right now I'd say that season 1 was better, but I want season 3 to kick around in my head for a few days before I really commit to that.

    I liked season two even though one had the better story, purely because I liked the setting in 1979

  • toncica said:

    Any thoughts on who will walk through the door, six men to arrest Varga or one to let him go?



    The whole thing is a personality test of sorts for the viewer...a pessimist will say that Varga goes free, an optimist will say that he gets arrested.

    I say he gets arrested.

    ElisaKingKobra
  • Ok I'm having trouble with the quoting feature... 

    But at any rate, this finale just falls apart for me, I loved last season and the season before it but at some point this season it's like Varga has just BS'd so much, he plays it both ways all the time where on one hand he suggest threatening to kill an IRS auditors kids and then saying "well he couldn't find us out if he had my account numbers" then while I don't usually complain about injecting politics into art because at this point I know most people in Hollywood are straight up leftists and I expect it now, just the constant overtly political messaging this entire season also detracted, I mean this was salute to the Bernie crowd, crowds of 99% peasants, Cayman Islands banks, guns with fingerprint scanners (and while we're on guns, a suppressor does not make a shot that quiet, if wrench actually did skullcap Emmit in that kitchen everyone at the table would be screaming and running in) predatory wall street practices, corrupt LE agents (corrupted by whom and to what extent is never explained, like in NYC during the heyday of the mob, everyone knew who the mafia was and who their leaders were and knew these people controlled the system to some extent, this whole "well I might have influence but might not" doesn't actually work) And then this Idea Ray is somehow a victim and Emmit was reaping the rewards of inheritence without earning it... like this whole season was overtly just a love fest of different political tropes and I think the plot was written around the politics and written around it poorly. 



    I've had problems with the quoting feature on and off for quite awhile now - especially when I'm on my tablet (iPad 2 mini - maybe you're using the same?).

    I somewhat agree with you, but for different reasons.  I really liked this season, but thought that it was probably the weakest of the three.  To me, season 2 was the best season of TV ever so that's the clear cut best season for me, so I'm really weighing season 1 vs season 3.  Right now I'd say that season 1 was better, but I want season 3 to kick around in my head for a few days before I really commit to that.

    I liked season two even though one had the better story, purely because I liked the setting in 1979

    To me, season 2 was perfect - I don't have a single complaint about it.  I loved the story, the characters, the writing, the performances, the direction, the cinematography etc.  every element of the show was perfect for me.
    ElisaDee
  • WonderedObjectWonderedObject SAN Francisco, CA
    The criticism for this season is pretty valid. It's a great season but in comparison to the other two seasons it just doesn't hold up. But its still such a great show. It took longer to get the wheels going in my opinion especially with the character development. The high points were really high such as this final episode where the VM gang were heading to the storage units. That shot was beautiful. But the low points really seemed to drag like the entire LA episode.

    I think I really loved season 2 so much it'll take a miracle for another season to top it.
  • CretanBullCretanBull Toronto
    edited June 2017

    The criticism for this season is pretty valid. It's a great season but in comparison to the other two seasons it just doesn't hold up. But its still such a great show. It took longer to get the wheels going in my opinion especially with the character development. The high points were really high such as this final episode where the VM gang were heading to the storage units. That shot was beautiful. But the low points really seemed to drag like the entire LA episode.

    I think I really loved season 2 so much it'll take a miracle for another season to top it.

    That's pretty much my feeling at the moment.  When comparing seasons 1 and 3, I'm weighing the steady, evenness of season 1 against an uneven season 3 that had wonderful highs and trying to figure out which is ultimately better.  I think plot, story, attachment to characters etc season 1 wins.  I think all of the technical stuff in season 3 (direction, cinematography, shot composition etc) is miles ahead.  The opening scene of the finale - the close up of Gloria's resignation letter blended into the camera panning over the IRS paper work was brilliantly shot...it's a fairly mundane scene, but I can't think of anything stylistically that stood out like that from season 1 - but that might be recency bias.
    emnofseattle
  • DeeDee Adelaide

    Ok I'm having trouble with the quoting feature... 

    But at any rate, this finale just falls apart for me, I loved last season and the season before it but at some point this season it's like Varga has just BS'd so much, he plays it both ways all the time where on one hand he suggest threatening to kill an IRS auditors kids and then saying "well he couldn't find us out if he had my account numbers" then while I don't usually complain about injecting politics into art because at this point I know most people in Hollywood are straight up leftists and I expect it now, just the constant overtly political messaging this entire season also detracted, I mean this was salute to the Bernie crowd, crowds of 99% peasants, Cayman Islands banks, guns with fingerprint scanners (and while we're on guns, a suppressor does not make a shot that quiet, if wrench actually did skullcap Emmit in that kitchen everyone at the table would be screaming and running in) predatory wall street practices, corrupt LE agents (corrupted by whom and to what extent is never explained, like in NYC during the heyday of the mob, everyone knew who the mafia was and who their leaders were and knew these people controlled the system to some extent, this whole "well I might have influence but might not" doesn't actually work) And then this Idea Ray is somehow a victim and Emmit was reaping the rewards of inheritence without earning it... like this whole season was overtly just a love fest of different political tropes and I think the plot was written around the politics and written around it poorly. 



    I've had problems with the quoting feature on and off for quite awhile now - especially when I'm on my tablet (iPad 2 mini - maybe you're using the same?).

    I somewhat agree with you, but for different reasons.  I really liked this season, but thought that it was probably the weakest of the three.  To me, season 2 was the best season of TV ever so that's the clear cut best season for me, so I'm really weighing season 1 vs season 3.  Right now I'd say that season 1 was better, but I want season 3 to kick around in my head for a few days before I really commit to that.

    I liked season two even though one had the better story, purely because I liked the setting in 1979

    To me, season 2 was perfect - I don't have a single complaint about it.  I loved the story, the characters, the writing, the performances, the direction, the cinematography etc.  every element of the show was perfect for me.
    I agree - it has by far been my favourite season so far.

    CretanBullemnofseattle
  • edited June 2017



    I wouldn't describe myself as an optimist, but I'd say he gets arrested. After all it's a story. In this story it looks to me that Gloria has progressed beyond being like the useless machine and now she is able to help.

    At the end Fargo has reached present day (2016, close enough). If it was closer to being a true story, or more realistic, I could come to a different conclusion though, seeing how resilient alternative truths have become. 

     
    CretanBull
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    edited June 2017

    Ok I'm having trouble with the quoting feature... 

    But at any rate, this finale just falls apart for me, I loved last season and the season before it but at some point this season it's like Varga has just BS'd so much, he plays it both ways all the time where on one hand he suggest threatening to kill an IRS auditors kids and then saying "well he couldn't find us out if he had my account numbers" then while I don't usually complain about injecting politics into art because at this point I know most people in Hollywood are straight up leftists and I expect it now, just the constant overtly political messaging this entire season also detracted, I mean this was salute to the Bernie crowd, crowds of 99% peasants, Cayman Islands banks, guns with fingerprint scanners (and while we're on guns, a suppressor does not make a shot that quiet, if wrench actually did skullcap Emmit in that kitchen everyone at the table would be screaming and running in) predatory wall street practices, corrupt LE agents (corrupted by whom and to what extent is never explained, like in NYC during the heyday of the mob, everyone knew who the mafia was and who their leaders were and knew these people controlled the system to some extent, this whole "well I might have influence but might not" doesn't actually work) And then this Idea Ray is somehow a victim and Emmit was reaping the rewards of inheritence without earning it... like this whole season was overtly just a love fest of different political tropes and I think the plot was written around the politics and written around it poorly. 



    I've had problems with the quoting feature on and off for quite awhile now - especially when I'm on my tablet (iPad 2 mini - maybe you're using the same?).

    I somewhat agree with you, but for different reasons.  I really liked this season, but thought that it was probably the weakest of the three.  To me, season 2 was the best season of TV ever so that's the clear cut best season for me, so I'm really weighing season 1 vs season 3.  Right now I'd say that season 1 was better, but I want season 3 to kick around in my head for a few days before I really commit to that.

    I liked season two even though one had the better story, purely because I liked the setting in 1979

    To me, season 2 was perfect - I don't have a single complaint about it.  I loved the story, the characters, the writing, the performances, the direction, the cinematography etc.  every element of the show was perfect for me.
    I had two complaint about season 2, I didn't like the scene with Lou and Reagan in the bathroom, and the scene where the dumbass cop in South Dakota says "let's go radio silent", like the UFO didn't ruin it for me, as Jim and A.Ron said during that podcast it was a scene where the cops did a "reverse deus ex machina requiring a deus ex machina to save the main characters" or something like that.  if it wasn't for those two combined 30 seconds of screen time I would've voted season two leaps and bounds over season one, but Season 2 was IMO better directed then one and I felt the period setting in 1979 gave it a feeling far more like the movie which was set in 1987, much less contemporary then seasons 1 and 3. 

    However I really like Molly as the lead protagonist in one, and I feel Allison Tolman knocked that performance out of the park, and so just on the stellar performance of an actress who was cast a leading role with no real widespread work before then, season 1 just barely edges out as my favorite. 

     <channeling my inner Hector Salamca> "Season 3 can suck me"
  • Ok I'm having trouble with the quoting feature... 

    But at any rate, this finale just falls apart for me, I loved last season and the season before it but at some point this season it's like Varga has just BS'd so much, he plays it both ways all the time where on one hand he suggest threatening to kill an IRS auditors kids and then saying "well he couldn't find us out if he had my account numbers" then while I don't usually complain about injecting politics into art because at this point I know most people in Hollywood are straight up leftists and I expect it now, just the constant overtly political messaging this entire season also detracted, I mean this was salute to the Bernie crowd, crowds of 99% peasants, Cayman Islands banks, guns with fingerprint scanners (and while we're on guns, a suppressor does not make a shot that quiet, if wrench actually did skullcap Emmit in that kitchen everyone at the table would be screaming and running in) predatory wall street practices, corrupt LE agents (corrupted by whom and to what extent is never explained, like in NYC during the heyday of the mob, everyone knew who the mafia was and who their leaders were and knew these people controlled the system to some extent, this whole "well I might have influence but might not" doesn't actually work) And then this Idea Ray is somehow a victim and Emmit was reaping the rewards of inheritence without earning it... like this whole season was overtly just a love fest of different political tropes and I think the plot was written around the politics and written around it poorly. 



    I've had problems with the quoting feature on and off for quite awhile now - especially when I'm on my tablet (iPad 2 mini - maybe you're using the same?).

    I somewhat agree with you, but for different reasons.  I really liked this season, but thought that it was probably the weakest of the three.  To me, season 2 was the best season of TV ever so that's the clear cut best season for me, so I'm really weighing season 1 vs season 3.  Right now I'd say that season 1 was better, but I want season 3 to kick around in my head for a few days before I really commit to that.

    I liked season two even though one had the better story, purely because I liked the setting in 1979

    To me, season 2 was perfect - I don't have a single complaint about it.  I loved the story, the characters, the writing, the performances, the direction, the cinematography etc.  every element of the show was perfect for me.
    I had two complaint about season 2, I didn't like the scene with Lou and Reagan in the bathroom, and the scene where the dumbass cop in South Dakota says "let's go radio silent", like the UFO didn't ruin it for me, as Jim and A.Ron said during that podcast it was a scene where the cops did a "reverse deus ex machina requiring a deus ex machina to save the main characters" or something like that.  if it wasn't for those two combined 30 seconds of screen time I would've voted season two leaps and bounds over season one, but Season 2 was IMO better directed then one and I felt the period setting in 1979 gave it a feeling far more like the movie which was set in 1987, much less contemporary then seasons 1 and 3. 

    However I really like Molly as the lead protagonist in one, and I feel Allison Tolman knocked that performance out of the park, and so just on the stellar performance of an actress who was cast a leading role with no real widespread work before then, season 1 just barely edges out as my favorite. 

     <channeling my inner Hector Salamca> "Season 3 can suck me"



    I get why you in particular didn't like the take-down of Reagan, but don't really understand the point about going radio silent.  They were setting a trap for the Gerhardts in the CB-radio crazed 70's, going radio silent would be a prudent decision in a situation like that - not doing so would risk giving up their position.  It turned out to be a fateful decision, but nothing about the decision itself seemed contrived to me.


  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    edited June 2017

    Ok I'm having trouble with the quoting feature... 

    But at any rate, this finale just falls apart for me, I loved last season and the season before it but at some point this season it's like Varga has just BS'd so much, he plays it both ways all the time where on one hand he suggest threatening to kill an IRS auditors kids and then saying "well he couldn't find us out if he had my account numbers" then while I don't usually complain about injecting politics into art because at this point I know most people in Hollywood are straight up leftists and I expect it now, just the constant overtly political messaging this entire season also detracted, I mean this was salute to the Bernie crowd, crowds of 99% peasants, Cayman Islands banks, guns with fingerprint scanners (and while we're on guns, a suppressor does not make a shot that quiet, if wrench actually did skullcap Emmit in that kitchen everyone at the table would be screaming and running in) predatory wall street practices, corrupt LE agents (corrupted by whom and to what extent is never explained, like in NYC during the heyday of the mob, everyone knew who the mafia was and who their leaders were and knew these people controlled the system to some extent, this whole "well I might have influence but might not" doesn't actually work) And then this Idea Ray is somehow a victim and Emmit was reaping the rewards of inheritence without earning it... like this whole season was overtly just a love fest of different political tropes and I think the plot was written around the politics and written around it poorly. 



    I've had problems with the quoting feature on and off for quite awhile now - especially when I'm on my tablet (iPad 2 mini - maybe you're using the same?).

    I somewhat agree with you, but for different reasons.  I really liked this season, but thought that it was probably the weakest of the three.  To me, season 2 was the best season of TV ever so that's the clear cut best season for me, so I'm really weighing season 1 vs season 3.  Right now I'd say that season 1 was better, but I want season 3 to kick around in my head for a few days before I really commit to that.

    I liked season two even though one had the better story, purely because I liked the setting in 1979

    To me, season 2 was perfect - I don't have a single complaint about it.  I loved the story, the characters, the writing, the performances, the direction, the cinematography etc.  every element of the show was perfect for me.
    I had two complaint about season 2, I didn't like the scene with Lou and Reagan in the bathroom, and the scene where the dumbass cop in South Dakota says "let's go radio silent", like the UFO didn't ruin it for me, as Jim and A.Ron said during that podcast it was a scene where the cops did a "reverse deus ex machina requiring a deus ex machina to save the main characters" or something like that.  if it wasn't for those two combined 30 seconds of screen time I would've voted season two leaps and bounds over season one, but Season 2 was IMO better directed then one and I felt the period setting in 1979 gave it a feeling far more like the movie which was set in 1987, much less contemporary then seasons 1 and 3. 

    However I really like Molly as the lead protagonist in one, and I feel Allison Tolman knocked that performance out of the park, and so just on the stellar performance of an actress who was cast a leading role with no real widespread work before then, season 1 just barely edges out as my favorite. 

     <channeling my inner Hector Salamca> "Season 3 can suck me"



    I get why you in particular didn't like the take-down of Reagan, but don't really understand the point about going radio silent.  They were setting a trap for the Gerhardts in the CB-radio crazed 70's, going radio silent would be a prudent decision in a situation like that - not doing so would risk giving up their position.  It turned out to be a fateful decision, but nothing about the decision itself seemed contrived to me.


    Police radios are not in any way compatible with CB. CB radio operates between.... I want to say 26 and 27 MhZ whereas the public safety operations were (at the time) operating on 150 to 159 MhZ. many officers had CB radios in their cars that they monitored because truck drivers would use them to hail for help before cell phones (cops would also pretend to be drivers and send out fake "all clear" messages to drivers then ticket them) , I mean before cells in many places if your car broke down you hailed a truck driver and the truck driver could use the CB to get a message out to either another driver at a truck stop where there was a phone or a highway patrolman who had a CB in their car, but the actual police dispatch and the like were on the VHF band. This has been a primer in police radio systems (how do I know this, well being as smart as I am I've read the manual for getting an ham radio license front to back, I just haven't actually gone and taken the test)

    But going radio silent doesn't mean turning off your radio, you can passively listen and not be tracked, at least not by any means the Gehrhardts would've had. Communist China claimed back in the 90s they could truck people listening to radios, in this time frame many churches in Australia were broadcasting religious content on shortwave radio in the Chinese language which the PRC government didn't like, I don't know if they actually invented a way to find out if you're listening to a specific frequency or if they were trying to scare people into not listening to the good news by claiming you would be arrested for listening to it. it's very easy to track a broadcast, I don't know that you could track someone just for having a radio on and listening.

    and it would've been so easy to explain if the Chief or Captain or whoever he was just turned off the radio because they were going to bed and weren't on duty and thus didn't need to listen to their dispatcher, but he tries to sound super cool saying "let's go radio silent" and thus sets into motion a chain of events that is only fixed by a UFO appearance. 

    The Reagan one was more then politics, I felt that was personal like they were trying to tie his alzhiemers into the plot. because you can look at any speech Reagan made until the mid 1980s and he was sharp and never lacked words to say. and I felt because he wasn't actually suffering from alzhiemers in 1979 that we know of, that whole scene showing him confused and forgetful and not knowing what to say was way more then "I don't like Reagan" it got fairly personal. 
    It was like that movie with Meryl Streep playing Margaret Thatcher several years ago. I think people in Hollywood don't even understand why people like Reagan and Thatcher are so widely admired and they live in a bubble and so they'll depict conservative leaders as they see them, and in a way that doesn't match the actual person. Ronald Reagan in 1979 would not be forgetful and confused in that manner. and the underhanded swipe where he's talking about being a war hero in a propaganda film, Reagan had such respect for the military he would never have said that to a war hero like Lou. in fact Reagan wanted to be assigned to a combat unit and was medically disqualified. that and Franklin Roosevelt wanted actors to be in the special service producing propaganda
  • CretanBullCretanBull Toronto
    edited June 2017

    @emnofseattle

    Re: CB's - all of that taken into consideration, I still think that it's meant to show that they were covering their position from the Gerhardts...and I really don't think that a UFO was the only resolution.  The radio silence was ultimately a means to have Lou be at the scene of the shoot-out.

    Re: Reagan, I think that you've completely misread that scene altogether.  It was meant to expose Reagan as what his critics have always said about him - that he was a spokesperson for a movement and had no ideas of his own.  Lou is reaching out to him, looking for answers of sorts and Reagan gives him an inspiring speech, but when Lou follows his speech up by asking for specifics (he says something like "Yeah, but how?") Reagan has nothing to offer.  The inference isn't that he's having an early bout of Alzhiemer's and forgotten, it's that he's just been exposed as a talking head who's great at delivering speeches but has no substance or understanding beyond rehearsed lines.

    Edit:  Here's a bit from an interview that The Hollywood Reporter did with Bruce Campbell:

     
    "I love the scene with Reagan and Lou at the urinal, because that scene seems to capture both Reagan's believable empathy, but also how superficial and empty he could come across. How did you approach that scene?"

    (Laughs.) He doesn't have an answer! He doesn't have all the answers. We can say that we have all the answers. We can get up there and give speeches and tell people, "You know if you want a great country again, here's what we have to do," but it doesn't stop people from getting cancer. It doesn't stop their lives from being discarded. Speeches aren't going to stop anything. So yes, the theory is great. "Let's pick ourselves up by our bootstraps" and he honestly believes that as an American you can overcome anything, even your wife who's dying. He couldn't abandon his approach, but it does show a little bit of the fallibility of it, that it is a pie in the sky theory. Instead of being the president goes, "I feel your pain, all you poor people, we're going to help you right now," that was not the approach. If you were poor, that was your fault. Americans can do anything. Why are you poor? "You just have to work a little harder." He's still stuck with the attitude at the time, "Well, if you just roll up your sleeves and sweat a bit..."
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA

    @emnofseattle

    Re: CB's - all of that taken into consideration, I still think that it's meant to show that they were covering their position from the Gerhardts...and I really don't think that a UFO was the only resolution.  The radio silence was ultimately a means to have Lou be at the scene of the shoot-out.

    Re: Reagan, I think that you've completely misread that scene altogether.  It was meant to expose Reagan as what his critics have always said about him - that he was a spokesperson for a movement and had no ideas of his own.  Lou is reaching out to him, looking for answers of sorts and Reagan gives him an inspiring speech, but when Lou follows his speech up by asking for specifics (he says something like "Yeah, but how?") Reagan has nothing to offer.  The inference isn't that he's having an early bout of Alzhiemer's and forgotten, it's that he's just been exposed as a talking head who's great at delivering speeches but has no substance or understanding beyond rehearsed lines.

    Edit:  Here's a bit from an interview that The Hollywood Reporter did with Bruce Campbell:

     
    "I love the scene with Reagan and Lou at the urinal, because that scene seems to capture both Reagan's believable empathy, but also how superficial and empty he could come across. How did you approach that scene?"

    (Laughs.) He doesn't have an answer! He doesn't have all the answers. We can say that we have all the answers. We can get up there and give speeches and tell people, "You know if you want a great country again, here's what we have to do," but it doesn't stop people from getting cancer. It doesn't stop their lives from being discarded. Speeches aren't going to stop anything. So yes, the theory is great. "Let's pick ourselves up by our bootstraps" and he honestly believes that as an American you can overcome anything, even your wife who's dying. He couldn't abandon his approach, but it does show a little bit of the fallibility of it, that it is a pie in the sky theory. Instead of being the president goes, "I feel your pain, all you poor people, we're going to help you right now," that was not the approach. If you were poor, that was your fault. Americans can do anything. Why are you poor? "You just have to work a little harder." He's still stuck with the attitude at the time, "Well, if you just roll up your sleeves and sweat a bit..."
    Well regardless this doesn't need to be the third politics thread, I didn't care for that scene or the radio scene,

    Something that bothers me is stuff that is either wrong or off that don't have to be. Like I commented on the twin peaks thread that in the pilot they created fake WA state patrol patches and badges that were the right insignia but the wrong color with WA state troopers wearing the wrong uniform. Things like wrong details or procedures that don't have to be wrong to advance the plot


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