R+L = J but Dany and Jon aren't related

Without a doubt the showrunners are doing some sparking between Dany and Jon, and it's likely that some sort of frisson between the two was planned by GRRM as well because we know DnD screentested Kit and Emilia very early on for romantic chemistry down the road. But I'm having a devil of a time trying to imagine scenarios in which this would not be gross because of incest. Using either/or/and book and show knowledge, is there any way we get some kind of revelation that they aren't related or at least not as closely as we think they are? Since Dany is so clearly Targ by physical appearance she would need to have at least one Targ (or maybe Blackfyre?) parent.
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Comments

  • It wasn't uncommon during that time or similarly in the Middle Ages for cousins and relatives to marry. It's strange and gross now, but for the time it's not that big of a deal. Idk about you but I still root for Jaime and he fucks his sister so...

    https://www.thoughtco.com/consanguinity-and-medieval-marriages-3529573
    KingKobraTravisalexander.klassen
  • LittleLionessLittleLioness Pennsylvania
    Yea but cousins is different than aunt and nephew. How do we stretch and twist the family tree to make them cousins (because that would be less disturbing) if possible, or do we really think GRRM and/or the Double Ds are gonna force us to try to accept aunt/nephew incest?
  • Yea but cousins is different than aunt and nephew. How do we stretch and twist the family tree to make them cousins (because that would be less disturbing) if possible, or do we really think GRRM and/or the Double Ds are gonna force us to try to accept aunt/nephew incest?

    You don't have to accept it, it is what it is. People have been watching Jamie and Cersi get it on for 7 seasons now. It's part of show/book history that this type of thing happened. Consider it gross, yucky, whatever, it either will happen or it won't, honestly that's one of the least disturbing things on the show in the "sex scale". They don't even know they are related yet.
    gguenotMelonuskalexander.klassenMichelleJovial_Falcon
  • It not like a 30yo aunt with a 15yo nephew, that she babysat. They are roughly the same age and only met when both are sexually active. I really don't think its its disturbing. What Woody Allen did in my opinion is way more disturbing and creepy. There was no blood relation.
    KingKobragguenotMurderbearMelonuskTravisNoelLannitikMichelle
  • tpelzytpelzy Dallas
    @LittleLioness You might be on to something. There's this mystery in the books about the "House with the red door". Long story short, there's probably more to Danny's childhood than meets the eye. Quaithe seems to be telling Danny that she is not who she thinks she is. Or at least that she has something very important to learn about herself. Also, GRRM has played around with the idea of baby/child switching. Val's son & baby Sam, Aegon and the baby supposedly switched by Varys, Bran and Ricon & the Miller's boys, Arya and the fake Arya. This is even less than tin foil, but I could see a story where she's actually a fake Danny who was switched out for the real one.  Danny could be a Blackfire, a Dane, or even a Martel who hit the genetic lottery and got all Targ features. 

    Just to be clear, I don't think we'll get any of this in the show since they've left out so much of the foreshadowing. 
    LittleLioness
  • tpelzytpelzy Dallas

    What Woody Allen did in my opinion is way more disturbing and creepy. 

    That is, perhaps, the lowest of bars lol.
    LittleLioness
  • tpelzy said:

    @LittleLioness You might be on to something. There's this mystery in the books about the "House with the red door". Long story short, there's probably more to Danny's childhood than meets the eye. Quaithe seems to be telling Danny that she is not who she thinks she is. Or at least that she has something very important to learn about herself. Also, GRRM has played around with the idea of baby/child switching. Val's son & baby Sam, Aegon and the baby supposedly switched by Varys, Bran and Ricon & the Miller's boys, Arya and the fake Arya. This is even less than tin foil, but I could see a story where she's actually a fake Danny who was switched out for the real one.  Danny could be a Blackfire, a Dane, or even a Martel who hit the genetic lottery and got all Targ features. 


    Just to be clear, I don't think we'll get any of this in the show since they've left out so much of the foreshadowing. 
    If they did make Danny a blackfyre then she would take over one of Faegon book threads. They can also unite the targ split. They are bringing the Golden Company with Cersei. The GC may break their contact with Cersei. Because some contacts are signed with ink and others are signed with blood. I may have got that quote wrong but you get the point.
    LittleLionesstpelzy
  • LittleLionessLittleLioness Pennsylvania
    Yes
    tpelzy said:

    @LittleLioness You might be on to something. There's this mystery in the books about the "House with the red door". Long story short, there's probably more to Danny's childhood than meets the eye. Quaithe seems to be telling Danny that she is not who she thinks she is. Or at least that she has something very important to learn about herself. Also, GRRM has played around with the idea of baby/child switching. Val's son & baby Sam, Aegon and the baby supposedly switched by Varys, Bran and Ricon & the Miller's boys, Arya and the fake Arya. This is even less than tin foil, but I could see a story where she's actually a fake Danny who was switched out for the real one.  Danny could be a Blackfire, a Dane, or even a Martel who hit the genetic lottery and got all Targ features. 


    Just to be clear, I don't think we'll get any of this in the show since they've left out so much of the foreshadowing. 



    Yes! That is one of the reasons why I am suspecting that we might find out that Dany isn't really the Mad King's daughter! The House with the Red Door and I believe I've read this fan theory discussed as "Lemontreegate" - the fact that Dany has this fuzzy early suppressed memory which is supposed to be of the house she first lived in in exile after being born on Dragonstone and rescued from there by Ser Willem Darry. Dany was told and always believed that the House with the Red Door was in Braavos, but she is too young to really remember it all, and some readers have made much of the fact that Braavos doesn't have the climate for citrus trees and they don't grow there. But where do they grow? Dorne.

    So based on Lemontreegate, I am thinking that she may be half Dayne and half Targ, or half Martell and half Targ, but I'm just not sure how we get there and how it adds up.

    Talking about GRRM's fondness for the old baby/child switcheroo we should remember he had Theon pull the same thing off with the burned farmboy corpses that were supposed to be Bran and Rickon.
    tpelzy
  • FreddyFreddy Denton, Texas
    edited August 9
    The creepy part isn't an aunt and nephew banging, it's that if they bang, the nephew's cousin is going to roll his eyes back into his head and watch the video. Even creepier is what he'll say to them. "You looked so beautiful, in your Night's Watch jacket."

    On a related (no pun intended) note, how shitty of a deal is it for all of the GoT world that the greenseers are the only ones who get to watch porno?
    Travisbizmarkiefaderalexander.klassenMichelle
    I just want to be famous enough that a porn parody gets made about me.
  • LittleLionessLittleLioness Pennsylvania

    tpelzy said:

    @LittleLioness You might be on to something. There's this mystery in the books about the "House with the red door". Long story short, there's probably more to Danny's childhood than meets the eye. Quaithe seems to be telling Danny that she is not who she thinks she is. Or at least that she has something very important to learn about herself. Also, GRRM has played around with the idea of baby/child switching. Val's son & baby Sam, Aegon and the baby supposedly switched by Varys, Bran and Ricon & the Miller's boys, Arya and the fake Arya. This is even less than tin foil, but I could see a story where she's actually a fake Danny who was switched out for the real one.  Danny could be a Blackfire, a Dane, or even a Martel who hit the genetic lottery and got all Targ features. 


    Just to be clear, I don't think we'll get any of this in the show since they've left out so much of the foreshadowing. 
    If they did make Danny a blackfyre then she would take over one of Faegon book threads. They can also unite the targ split. They are bringing the Golden Company with Cersei. The GC may break their contact with Cersei. Because some contacts are signed with ink and others are signed with blood. I may have got that quote wrong but you get the point.



    Yes, I wonder if this is where some of Varys's backstory will come in.
  • LittleLionessLittleLioness Pennsylvania
    tpelzy said:

    @LittleLioness You might be on to something. There's this mystery in the books about the "House with the red door". Long story short, there's probably more to Danny's childhood than meets the eye. Quaithe seems to be telling Danny that she is not who she thinks she is. Or at least that she has something very important to learn about herself. Also, GRRM has played around with the idea of baby/child switching. Val's son & baby Sam, Aegon and the baby supposedly switched by Varys, Bran and Ricon & the Miller's boys, Arya and the fake Arya. This is even less than tin foil, but I could see a story where she's actually a fake Danny who was switched out for the real one.  Danny could be a Blackfire, a Dane, or even a Martel who hit the genetic lottery and got all Targ features. 


    Just to be clear, I don't think we'll get any of this in the show since they've left out so much of the foreshadowing. 



    Sorry I just went back and re-read and saw you did mention the younger Stark swap.
  • LittleLionessLittleLioness Pennsylvania
    I am imagining how amusing this might be.

    Dany: "What a relief, I'm not the daughter of an incestuous madman king after all."

    Jon: "what a relief, you aren't my aunt after all."

    Dany: "but wait now you're a dynastic threat to me because I am not Aerys's daughter but you ARE Rhaegar's son."

    Davos or Tyrion: "this problem can be solved with a marriage pact."

    Dany: " done, this was the reason I cut my FWB Daario loose."

    Jon: "but we don't have time for that now, we have to defeat Cersei and the White Walkers...together."

    Cut to Season 8

    Dany: "alright we've defeated Cersei and the White Walker."

    Jon: "back to the cave, then."
    tpelzy
  • It not like a 30yo aunt with a 15yo nephew, that she babysat. They are roughly the same age and only met when both are sexually active. I really don't think its its disturbing. What Woody Allen did in my opinion is way more disturbing and creepy. There was no blood relation.

    I'm with webswinger on this one.  The lack of age difference is the key thing here as both Dany and Jon are the same age basically (maybe Dany is slightly older by around a year at most).  They didn't grow up together where they were constantly around each other and then decide to hook up.  Nor is this a case of someone much older preying on someone who isn't emotionally or psychologically capable of really understanding what they're doing.  So, for the time being, since they're both ignorant of the truth, let it be.  I think should they both learn the truth, my guess is that they won't pursue things any further (unless someone they were already married but I doubt that).
  • Freddy said:

    On a related (no pun intended) note, how shitty of a deal is it for all of the GoT world that the greenseers are the only ones who get to watch porno?



    Theon is a greenseer?


  • red priests can but they're not supposed to.
  • Dany's Mother was her Father's sister. So I'm not sure the books care too much about her hooking up with her nephew, at least that's a little removed. 

    As far as Dany not being a Targ, I'm not sure I heard a plausible theory for this. There is a alot of information pointing to her being who she is, so it's hard to think of a scenario where she was swapped or the child of someone else. GRRM will usually foreshadow something like that, especially if it's a huge story point and he hasn't really done so. 

  • tpelzytpelzy Dallas

    tpelzy said:

    @LittleLioness You might be on to something. There's this mystery in the books about the "House with the red door". Long story short, there's probably more to Danny's childhood than meets the eye. Quaithe seems to be telling Danny that she is not who she thinks she is. Or at least that she has something very important to learn about herself. Also, GRRM has played around with the idea of baby/child switching. Val's son & baby Sam, Aegon and the baby supposedly switched by Varys, Bran and Ricon & the Miller's boys, Arya and the fake Arya. This is even less than tin foil, but I could see a story where she's actually a fake Danny who was switched out for the real one.  Danny could be a Blackfire, a Dane, or even a Martel who hit the genetic lottery and got all Targ features. 


    Just to be clear, I don't think we'll get any of this in the show since they've left out so much of the foreshadowing. 
    If they did make Danny a blackfyre then she would take over one of Faegon book threads. They can also unite the targ split. They are bringing the Golden Company with Cersei. The GC may break their contact with Cersei. Because some contacts are signed with ink and others are signed with blood. I may have got that quote wrong but you get the point.
    Technically, they just rolled together the Faegon, Queenmaker, Doran Martell plots into one big bundle. And honestly, it would be bad storytelling to introduce the Blackfire Targs at this point. I could totally see them bringing back Quaithe for a remix of whatever GRRM has planned.
  • Strong Belwas to lead the Dornish on a raid of Kings Landing
    Yeah? Well, y'know... that's just like uh... your opinion, man.
  • tpelzytpelzy Dallas

    Yes

    tpelzy said:

    @LittleLioness You might be on to something. There's this mystery in the books about the "House with the red door". Long story short, there's probably more to Danny's childhood than meets the eye. Quaithe seems to be telling Danny that she is not who she thinks she is. Or at least that she has something very important to learn about herself. Also, GRRM has played around with the idea of baby/child switching. Val's son & baby Sam, Aegon and the baby supposedly switched by Varys, Bran and Ricon & the Miller's boys, Arya and the fake Arya. This is even less than tin foil, but I could see a story where she's actually a fake Danny who was switched out for the real one.  Danny could be a Blackfire, a Dane, or even a Martel who hit the genetic lottery and got all Targ features. 


    Just to be clear, I don't think we'll get any of this in the show since they've left out so much of the foreshadowing. 



    Yes! That is one of the reasons why I am suspecting that we might find out that Dany isn't really the Mad King's daughter! The House with the Red Door and I believe I've read this fan theory discussed as "Lemontreegate" - the fact that Dany has this fuzzy early suppressed memory which is supposed to be of the house she first lived in in exile after being born on Dragonstone and rescued from there by Ser Willem Darry. Dany was told and always believed that the House with the Red Door was in Braavos, but she is too young to really remember it all, and some readers have made much of the fact that Braavos doesn't have the climate for citrus trees and they don't grow there. But where do they grow? Dorne.

    So based on Lemontreegate, I am thinking that she may be half Dayne and half Targ, or half Martell and half Targ, but I'm just not sure how we get there and how it adds up.

    Talking about GRRM's fondness for the old baby/child switcheroo we should remember he had Theon pull the same thing off with the burned farmboy corpses that were supposed to be Bran and Rickon.
    Yeah I don't think we will get any of the Lemontreegate stuff in the show unless it's a very loose remix with characters we've already seen. To me the reason I'm not shipping Jon and Danny is because it would be so boring haven't we seen this story a million times? I just hope they do something more interesting.
  • LittleLionessLittleLioness Pennsylvania
    tpelzy said:

    Yes

    tpelzy said:

    @LittleLioness You might be on to something. There's this mystery in the books about the "House with the red door". Long story short, there's probably more to Danny's childhood than meets the eye. Quaithe seems to be telling Danny that she is not who she thinks she is. Or at least that she has something very important to learn about herself. Also, GRRM has played around with the idea of baby/child switching. Val's son & baby Sam, Aegon and the baby supposedly switched by Varys, Bran and Ricon & the Miller's boys, Arya and the fake Arya. This is even less than tin foil, but I could see a story where she's actually a fake Danny who was switched out for the real one.  Danny could be a Blackfire, a Dane, or even a Martel who hit the genetic lottery and got all Targ features. 


    Just to be clear, I don't think we'll get any of this in the show since they've left out so much of the foreshadowing. 



    Yes! That is one of the reasons why I am suspecting that we might find out that Dany isn't really the Mad King's daughter! The House with the Red Door and I believe I've read this fan theory discussed as "Lemontreegate" - the fact that Dany has this fuzzy early suppressed memory which is supposed to be of the house she first lived in in exile after being born on Dragonstone and rescued from there by Ser Willem Darry. Dany was told and always believed that the House with the Red Door was in Braavos, but she is too young to really remember it all, and some readers have made much of the fact that Braavos doesn't have the climate for citrus trees and they don't grow there. But where do they grow? Dorne.

    So based on Lemontreegate, I am thinking that she may be half Dayne and half Targ, or half Martell and half Targ, but I'm just not sure how we get there and how it adds up.

    Talking about GRRM's fondness for the old baby/child switcheroo we should remember he had Theon pull the same thing off with the burned farmboy corpses that were supposed to be Bran and Rickon.
    Yeah I don't think we will get any of the Lemontreegate stuff in the show unless it's a very loose remix with characters we've already seen. To me the reason I'm not shipping Jon and Danny is because it would be so boring haven't we seen this story a million times? I just hope they do something more interesting.
    Maybe they will "join their houses" by bloodline in some other way. But the trouble we have there is that there are no blood relatives (i.e. siblings) of Dany's who could form a marriage pact with one of Jon's half-sibs. If we had a surviving Stark marry a Targ incest wouldn't be an issue but the trouble is we only have 1 or 2 Targaryens to mess around with, one of whom is half stark.
  • JamesJames southern California

    It not like a 30yo aunt with a 15yo nephew, that she babysat. They are roughly the same age and only met when both are sexually active. I really don't think its its disturbing. What Woody Allen did in my opinion is way more disturbing and creepy. There was no blood relation.

    I'm with webswinger on this one.  The lack of age difference is the key thing here as both Dany and Jon are the same age basically (maybe Dany is slightly older by around a year at most).  They didn't grow up together where they were constantly around each other and then decide to hook up.  Nor is this a case of someone much older preying on someone who isn't emotionally or psychologically capable of really understanding what they're doing.  So, for the time being, since they're both ignorant of the truth, let it be.  I think should they both learn the truth, my guess is that they won't pursue things any further (unless someone they were already married but I doubt that).
    Here's the thing. We are creeped out by age differences because big age differences can imply coercion or the lack of true consent in a relationship. If both parties are over 18 it is not illegal, but our default is to still be creeped out by it. But this has nothing to do with incest.

    The taboo about incest is entirely about genetics. Even before genetics was known, most cultures recognized that there tend to be a lot of medical issues with the offspring of closely related parents. Recessive genes start to pile up after a few generations.

    Jon and Dany are 50% Stark and Martell, respectively, but on the Targaryen side they are the offspring of multiple generations of brother/sister pairings, enough that they could be the genetic equivalent of brother and sister.
  • James said:

    It not like a 30yo aunt with a 15yo nephew, that she babysat. They are roughly the same age and only met when both are sexually active. I really don't think its its disturbing. What Woody Allen did in my opinion is way more disturbing and creepy. There was no blood relation.

    I'm with webswinger on this one.  The lack of age difference is the key thing here as both Dany and Jon are the same age basically (maybe Dany is slightly older by around a year at most).  They didn't grow up together where they were constantly around each other and then decide to hook up.  Nor is this a case of someone much older preying on someone who isn't emotionally or psychologically capable of really understanding what they're doing.  So, for the time being, since they're both ignorant of the truth, let it be.  I think should they both learn the truth, my guess is that they won't pursue things any further (unless someone they were already married but I doubt that).
    Here's the thing. We are creeped out by age differences because big age differences can imply coercion or the lack of true consent in a relationship. If both parties are over 18 it is not illegal, but our default is to still be creeped out by it. But this has nothing to do with incest.

    The taboo about incest is entirely about genetics. Even before genetics was known, most cultures recognized that there tend to be a lot of medical issues with the offspring of closely related parents. Recessive genes start to pile up after a few generations.

    Jon and Dany are 50% Stark and Martell, respectively, but on the Targaryen side they are the offspring of multiple generations of brother/sister pairings, enough that they could be the genetic equivalent of brother and sister.
    Which wouldn't be any kind of a problem for a Targaryan.

    Elisa
  • @james Both Danny's parents are targaryan. I think you are mistaking her for Rhaegars daughter, but she is his sister.
    Elisavoodoorat
  • LittleLionessLittleLioness Pennsylvania

    @james Both Danny's parents are targaryan. I think you are mistaking her for Rhaegars daughter, but she is his sister.




    What people believe is that Dany is Rhaegar's sister, but what I'm speculating on is that both of her parents might not have been Targs. Only one of them may be and she may not be the Mad King's daughter. That is what the Lemon Tree fan theory is about: Dany has a secret parentage that has been concealed. I'm not mistaking her for Rhaegar's sis.
  • LittleLionessLittleLioness Pennsylvania

    @james Both Danny's parents are targaryan. I think you are mistaking her for Rhaegars daughter, but she is his sister.




    What people believe is that Dany is Rhaegar's sister, but what I'm speculating on is that both of her parents might not have been Targs. Only one of them may be and she may not be the Mad King's daughter. That is what the Lemon Tree fan theory is about: Dany has a secret parentage that has been concealed. I'm not mistaking her for Rhaegar's sis.

    @james Both Danny's parents are targaryan. I think you are mistaking her for Rhaegars daughter, but she is his sister.




    What people believe is that Dany is Rhaegar's sister, but what I'm speculating on is that both of her parents might not have been Targs. Only one of them may be and she may not be the Mad King's daughter. That is what the Lemon Tree fan theory is about: Dany has a secret parentage that has been concealed. I'm not mistaking her for Rhaegar's sis.

    @james Both Danny's parents are targaryan. I think you are mistaking her for Rhaegars daughter, but she is his sister.




    What people believe is that Dany is Rhaegar's sister, but what I'm speculating on is that both of her parents might not have been Targs. Only one of them may be and she may not be the Mad King's daughter. That is what the Lemon Tree fan theory is about: Dany has a secret parentage that has been concealed. I'm not mistaking her for Rhaegar's sis.

    @james Both Danny's parents are targaryan. I think you are mistaking her for Rhaegars daughter, but she is his sister.




    What people believe is that Dany is Rhaegar's sister, but what I'm speculating on is that both of her parents might not have been Targs. Only one of them may be and she may not be the Mad King's daughter. That is what the Lemon Tree fan theory is about: Dany has a secret parentage that has been concealed. I'm not mistaking her for Rhaegar's sis.

    @james Both Danny's parents are targaryan. I think you are mistaking her for Rhaegars daughter, but she is his sister.




    What people believe is that Dany is Rhaegar's sister, but what I'm speculating on is that both of her parents might not have been Targs. Only one of them may be and she may not be the Mad King's daughter. That is what the Lemon Tree fan theory is about: Dany has a secret parentage that has been concealed. I'm not mistaking her for Rhaegar's sis.

  • LittleLionessLittleLioness Pennsylvania

    @james Both Danny's parents are targaryan. I think you are mistaking her for Rhaegars daughter, but she is his sister.




    What people believe is that Dany is Rhaegar's sister, but what I'm speculating on is that both of her parents might not have been Targs. Only one of them may be and she may not be the Mad King's daughter. That is what the Lemon Tree fan theory is about: Dany has a secret parentage that has been concealed. I'm not mistaking her for Rhaegar's sis.

    @james Both Danny's parents are targaryan. I think you are mistaking her for Rhaegars daughter, but she is his sister.




    What people believe is that Dany is Rhaegar's sister, but what I'm speculating on is that both of her parents might not have been Targs. Only one of them may be and she may not be the Mad King's daughter. That is what the Lemon Tree fan theory is about: Dany has a secret parentage that has been concealed. I'm not mistaking her for Rhaegar's sis.

    @james Both Danny's parents are targaryan. I think you are mistaking her for Rhaegars daughter, but she is his sister.




    What people believe is that Dany is Rhaegar's sister, but what I'm speculating on is that both of her parents might not have been Targs. Only one of them may be and she may not be the Mad King's daughter. That is what the Lemon Tree fan theory is about: Dany has a secret parentage that has been concealed. I'm not mistaking her for Rhaegar's sis.

    @james Both Danny's parents are targaryan. I think you are mistaking her for Rhaegars daughter, but she is his sister.




    What people believe is that Dany is Rhaegar's sister, but what I'm speculating on is that both of her parents might not have been Targs. Only one of them may be and she may not be the Mad King's daughter. That is what the Lemon Tree fan theory is about: Dany has a secret parentage that has been concealed. I'm not mistaking her for Rhaegar's sis.

    @james Both Danny's parents are targaryan. I think you are mistaking her for Rhaegars daughter, but she is his sister.




    What people believe is that Dany is Rhaegar's sister, but what I'm speculating on is that both of her parents might not have been Targs. Only one of them may be and she may not be the Mad King's daughter. That is what the Lemon Tree fan theory is about: Dany has a secret parentage that has been concealed. I'm not mistaking her for Rhaegar's sis.




    I meant I'm not mistaking her for Rhaegar's daughter. Also sorry about the duplicate posts, not sure how that happened.
  • AndrewAndrew New York
    I think that the issue we're all ignoring here is that Daeny needs is a master of coin who DOESN'T let her ancestry.com membership lapse.

    Also, I'm pretty sure Jon wants to fuck that Dragon, not Daeny.  That way he can have one up on Tormund.
    budesignsakritenbrink
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    It's less gross because they haven't grown up around eachother as family, they aren't siblings, and they don't know about any possible blood ties.

    I would be pretty grossed out if Jon and Sansa got it on, because they grew up as siblings (and at the very least are 1st cousins).
  • LittleLionessLittleLioness Pennsylvania
    Has GRRM's secret nefarious plan been to normalize incest all along? lol and crying.
  • akritenbrinkakritenbrink Lynnwood, WA (Seattle area)
    Anyway Jon is north of the wall now and they never got it on. So who knows what could happen. Thank goodness I don't have to worry about any more shipping of them for now.
    Be a human, not a machine.

    Angie Kritenbrink
    akritenbrink on most social media

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