North Korea/United States war-drumming

Is Kim Jong Un just so infatuated with American culture that it's possible that if President Trump would have a meeting with him this war-drumming would just stop? He seems to have quite the bromance with Dennis Rodman.

Comments

  • Probably. If the US President formally met with Kim and acknowledged him as a legitimate national power that essentially acomplishes most of Kim's goals so there's no longer any point in launching anything. Will that actually happen? Probably not.
  • Alkaid13 said:

    Probably. If the US President formally met with Kim and acknowledged him as a legitimate national power that essentially acomplishes most of Kim's goals so there's no longer any point in launching anything. Will that actually happen? Probably not.

    Woah, I said a meeting not all that.
  • Considering we've never had a meeting between a US President and the leader of NK, having a meeting does actually acknowledge them as a world power even if we don't literally say that. Otherwise we wouldn't be meeting.
  • bsx4313 said:

    Alkaid13 said:

    Probably. If the US President formally met with Kim and acknowledged him as a legitimate national power that essentially acomplishes most of Kim's goals so there's no longer any point in launching anything. Will that actually happen? Probably not.

    Woah, I said a meeting not all that.
    That's exactly what "a meeting" would do...it's just not as simple as "just a meeting". It would be like if the POTUS had a meeting with the leader of a terrorist group such as ISIS.


  • Alkaid13 said:

    Considering we've never had a meeting between a US President and the leader of NK, having a meeting does actually acknowledge them as a world power even if we don't literally say that. Otherwise we wouldn't be meeting.

    image

    Not sure you know what you are talking about.
  • Not sure you know what you're talking about actually, you realize he wasn't the president then right?
  • Alkaid13 said:

    Not sure you know what you're talking about actually, you realize he wasn't the president then right?

    That is our president sitting with their President. First rule of when you find yourself digging your own hole is to stop digging.
    Look it up.
  • Alkaid13Alkaid13 Georgia
    edited August 11
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2016-10-31/bill-clintons-meeting-in-north-korea-detailed-in-new-wikileaks-release?context=amp
    Dude that meeting happened in 2009, that's two President's after Bill Clinton was in office. If you said Jimmy Carter then sure that's more accurate.

    Edit: never mind about the Carter thing I was right to begin with
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/08/02/politics/north-korea-trump-kim-jong-un-meeting/index.html
    Key quote being "No sitting US President has met with the active leader of North Korea".
  • https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/08/09/history-lesson-why-did-bill-clintons-north-korea-deal-fail/?utm_term=.a05c5ffd4e8f

    Correct, the picture I posted was after his presidency. Rather, than explain my point to you, here is a great article explaining why you are wrong. Giving them nuclear reactors and heavy fuel legitimizes them.
  • Alkaid13 said:

    Probably. If the US President formally met with Kim and acknowledged him as a legitimate national power that essentially acomplishes most of Kim's goals so there's no longer any point in launching anything. Will that actually happen? Probably not.

    Your original point was that a meeting would legitimize them not,  "No sitting US President has met with the active leader of North Korea".
  • Alkaid13Alkaid13 Georgia
    edited August 11
    You know I figured the implication was inherent in the statement but that's what I get for trying to make a nuanced argument on the internet so I'll reiterate with the proper wording.

    Considering no Sitting US President has met with the Active Leader of North Korea, if Trump and Kim had a formal meeting that would be a implicit acknowledgment of North Korea's status as a player on the World stage which is something Kim could accept as a compromise.
  • Alkaid13 said:

    You know I figured the implication was inherent in the statement but that's what I get for trying to make a nuanced argument on the internet so I'll reiterate with the proper wording.

    Considering no Sitting US President has met with the Active Leader of North Korea, if Trump and Kim had a formal meeting that would be a implicit acknowledgment of North Korea's status as a player on the World stage which is something Kim could accept as a compromise.

    Giving a country nuclear reactors and fuel for the reactors would recognize them as a World Player. Not sure how else that can be viewed.
  • bsx4313 said:

    Alkaid13 said:

    You know I figured the implication was inherent in the statement but that's what I get for trying to make a nuanced argument on the internet so I'll reiterate with the proper wording.

    Considering no Sitting US President has met with the Active Leader of North Korea, if Trump and Kim had a formal meeting that would be a implicit acknowledgment of North Korea's status as a player on the World stage which is something Kim could accept as a compromise.

    Giving a country nuclear reactors and fuel for the reactors would recognize them as a World Player. Not sure how else that can be viewed.



    From your link:
    Essentially, an international consortium planned to replace the North’s plutonium reactor with two light-water reactors; in the meantime, the United States would supply the North with 500,000 tons of heavy fuel oil every year to make up for the theoretical loss of the reactor while the new ones were built.

    So the reactors provided internationally were to replace plutonium reactors, and the fuel was fuel oil not nuclear material. Certainly the international community dealt with them as a country with nuclear power plants, but that is not the same level of legitimacy and respect that a public meeting between heads of state imparts.
  • bsx4313 said:

    Is Kim Jong Un just so infatuated with American culture that it's possible that if President Trump would have a meeting with him this war-drumming would just stop? He seems to have quite the bromance with Dennis Rodman.

    I hear KJU is a hell of a basketballer.
    So what? No f*kin ziti now?
  • akritenbrinkakritenbrink Lynnwood, WA (Seattle area)
    edited August 11
    So, putting aside about which leader has met with which leader, I heard a piece on the NYT Daily podcast (the August 10 episode) about how the Clinton administration sent William Perry, the retired former Secretary of Defense, to negotiate with N. Korea during the end of Clinton's term and they were going to agree to nuclear non-proliferation and there was even a visit to the US by a N. Korean delegation. So even if the leaders didn't meet, our two countries were negotiating. It wasn't exactly a friendly negotiation, kind of like, let's talk so we don't have to kick your ass, on the part of the US. But it was working, and then when Bush came into office he trashed the whole thing and started making speeches about the Axis of Evil and so forth. They interviewed Perry and his belief is that if Bush had continued the work Clinton started, we wouldn't be in this place today. I got the impression from that interview that N. Korea doesn't expect full capitulation on anything from the US and that they are starved for just a little recognition. 
    johnnytruant
    Be a human, not a machine.

    Angie Kritenbrink
    akritenbrink on most social media

  • This thread can probably be folded into the US Politics thread (just mind our bagged milk conversations!).

    Vasilnate1
  • So, putting aside about which leader has met with which leader, I heard a piece on the NYT Daily podcast (the August 10 episode) about how the Clinton administration sent William Perry, the retired former Secretary of Defense, to negotiate with N. Korea during the end of Clinton's term and they were going to agree to nuclear non-proliferation and there was even a visit to the US by a N. Korean delegation. So even if the leaders didn't meet, our two countries were negotiating. It wasn't exactly a friendly negotiation, kind of like, let's talk so we don't have to kick your ass, on the part of the US. But it was working, and then when Bush came into office he trashed the whole thing and started making speeches about the Axis of Evil and so forth. They interviewed Perry and his belief is that if Bush had continued the work Clinton started, we wouldn't be in this place today. I got the impression from that interview that N. Korea doesn't expect full capitulation on anything from the US and that they are starved for just a little recognition. 

    Bush famously named North Korea as one part of the three-part “axis of evil” with Iraq and Iran in his State of the Union speech as president in 2002.

    “North Korea is a regime arming with missiles and weapons of mass destruction, while starving its citizens,” he said.

    Later that year, the country confirmed what Bush said by admitting it had been secretly conducting a nuclear-weapons program for several years and proceeding to withdraw from its agreement with the Clinton administration shortly thereafter.

    By 2004, U.S. officials believed North Korea had developed between two and eight nuclear weapons.

    The Six-Party Talks” comprising China, North Korea, Japan, Russia, South Korea and the U.S. began in 2003 and continued over a number of years until 2009 under President Obama. In 2005, the group offeredsome energy and economic assistance if North Korea would give up its renewed efforts to build up its nuclear program, which Pyongyang tentatively agreed to.

    But that plan didn’t really hold and North Korea said it had successfully completed a nuclear test in 2006. In 2007, an agreement was reached to send $400 million worth of fuel, food and other aid in exchange for North Korea shutting down its main nuclear reactor.

    North Korea didn’t live up to its end of the deal then, either.


    Bush did include them in the "axis of evil" but for good reasons, over their human right violations. 

  • This thread can probably be folded into the US Politics thread (just mind our bagged milk conversations!).

     It doesn't make much sense to fold this into a much broader conversation that is like 30 pages long. Plus I was aiming for a lighter tone but it quickly escalated. 
    akritenbrink
  • bsx4313 said:

    This thread can probably be folded into the US Politics thread (just mind our bagged milk conversations!).

     It doesn't make much sense to fold this into a much broader conversation that is like 30 pages long. Plus I was aiming for a lighter tone but it quickly escalated. 
    It's already being discussed there, now there are two different conversations about the same thing.
    Brawn
  • bsx4313 said:

    This thread can probably be folded into the US Politics thread (just mind our bagged milk conversations!).

     It doesn't make much sense to fold this into a much broader conversation that is like 30 pages long. Plus I was aiming for a lighter tone but it quickly escalated. 
    It's already being discussed there, now there are two different conversations about the same thing.
    I just checked it out and it seems like a a chat board about nonsense . I reviewed three pages and saw capri sun, canadian bacon, and non-stop milk talk.
  • bsx4313 said:

    bsx4313 said:

    This thread can probably be folded into the US Politics thread (just mind our bagged milk conversations!).

     It doesn't make much sense to fold this into a much broader conversation that is like 30 pages long. Plus I was aiming for a lighter tone but it quickly escalated. 
    It's already being discussed there, now there are two different conversations about the same thing.
    I just checked it out and it seems like a a chat board about nonsense . I reviewed three pages and saw capri sun, canadian bacon, and non-stop milk talk.
    That's how we roll.  But all of this has been discussed there and probably doesn't need a thread dedicated to it.  I don't care, I'm just sayin'.
  • edited August 11

    bsx4313 said:

    bsx4313 said:

    This thread can probably be folded into the US Politics thread (just mind our bagged milk conversations!).

     It doesn't make much sense to fold this into a much broader conversation that is like 30 pages long. Plus I was aiming for a lighter tone but it quickly escalated. 
    It's already being discussed there, now there are two different conversations about the same thing.
    I just checked it out and it seems like a a chat board about nonsense . I reviewed three pages and saw capri sun, canadian bacon, and non-stop milk talk.
    That's how we roll.  But all of this has been discussed there and probably doesn't need a thread dedicated to it.  I don't care, I'm just sayin'.
    Like I said it's a thread full of non-sense under the headline of US Politics. This is a thread about a specific event. Thanks for your input!
  • bsx4313 said:

    bsx4313 said:

    bsx4313 said:

    This thread can probably be folded into the US Politics thread (just mind our bagged milk conversations!).

     It doesn't make much sense to fold this into a much broader conversation that is like 30 pages long. Plus I was aiming for a lighter tone but it quickly escalated. 
    It's already being discussed there, now there are two different conversations about the same thing.
    I just checked it out and it seems like a a chat board about nonsense . I reviewed three pages and saw capri sun, canadian bacon, and non-stop milk talk.
    That's how we roll.  But all of this has been discussed there and probably doesn't need a thread dedicated to it.  I don't care, I'm just sayin'.
    Like I said it's a thread full of non-sense under the headline of US Politics. This is a thread about a specific event. Thanks for your input!
    One man's non-sense is another man's effort to convince the world to adopt bagged milk.
    Vasilnate1Brawn
  • bizmarkiefaderbizmarkiefader San Francisco
    @CretanBull I'm going to open up a shop that sells milk in cartons up there and be rich
    Alkaid13CretanBullBrawn
  • @CretanBull I'm going to open up a shop that sells milk in cartons up there and be rich

    Your kind aren't welcomed in these parts.
  • akritenbrinkakritenbrink Lynnwood, WA (Seattle area)
    Now we have a thread talking about what we should talk about on this thread and other threads lol
    Be a human, not a machine.

    Angie Kritenbrink
    akritenbrink on most social media

  • akritenbrinkakritenbrink Lynnwood, WA (Seattle area)
    bsx4313 said:

    So, putting aside about which leader has met with which leader, I heard a piece on the NYT Daily podcast (the August 10 episode) about how the Clinton administration sent William Perry, the retired former Secretary of Defense, to negotiate with N. Korea during the end of Clinton's term and they were going to agree to nuclear non-proliferation and there was even a visit to the US by a N. Korean delegation. So even if the leaders didn't meet, our two countries were negotiating. It wasn't exactly a friendly negotiation, kind of like, let's talk so we don't have to kick your ass, on the part of the US. But it was working, and then when Bush came into office he trashed the whole thing and started making speeches about the Axis of Evil and so forth. They interviewed Perry and his belief is that if Bush had continued the work Clinton started, we wouldn't be in this place today. I got the impression from that interview that N. Korea doesn't expect full capitulation on anything from the US and that they are starved for just a little recognition. 

    Bush famously named North Korea as one part of the three-part “axis of evil” with Iraq and Iran in his State of the Union speech as president in 2002.

    “North Korea is a regime arming with missiles and weapons of mass destruction, while starving its citizens,” he said.

    Later that year, the country confirmed what Bush said by admitting it had been secretly conducting a nuclear-weapons program for several years and proceeding to withdraw from its agreement with the Clinton administration shortly thereafter.

    By 2004, U.S. officials believed North Korea had developed between two and eight nuclear weapons.

    The Six-Party Talks” comprising China, North Korea, Japan, Russia, South Korea and the U.S. began in 2003 and continued over a number of years until 2009 under President Obama. In 2005, the group offeredsome energy and economic assistance if North Korea would give up its renewed efforts to build up its nuclear program, which Pyongyang tentatively agreed to.

    But that plan didn’t really hold and North Korea said it had successfully completed a nuclear test in 2006. In 2007, an agreement was reached to send $400 million worth of fuel, food and other aid in exchange for North Korea shutting down its main nuclear reactor.

    North Korea didn’t live up to its end of the deal then, either.


    Bush did include them in the "axis of evil" but for good reasons, over their human right violations. 

    It's true North Korea is a rogue state and its citizens are suffering horribly, but no one seems to really care to truly do anything about that, so at the moment I'm just concerned about them starting a nuclear war.

    It's also true that the story I quoted didn't really get into the Bush administration's motivations or what NK was doing during that time, so thanks for providing that background.

    I think the assertion that Kelly was trying to make was that if the talks had been continued, that other stuff would have never happened. But of course, that's just speculation and not provable at all. 
    Be a human, not a machine.

    Angie Kritenbrink
    akritenbrink on most social media

  • Vasilnate1Vasilnate1 Salem, MA
    I think if Trump does 1 more season of "The Apprentice"-dictators edition, and he lets Kim Jong Un win everything will settle down.  
    image
    "because everything would be what it isn't"
  • edited August 11

    I think if Trump does 1 more season of "The Apprentice"-dictators edition, and he lets Kim Jong Un win everything will settle down.  


    Wouldn't that be the funniest spoof. If they could do it and have on current and mostly former(deceased) dictators. Imagine the clash of personalities when they are trying to complete their tasks successfully. So many possibilities!
  • akritenbrinkakritenbrink Lynnwood, WA (Seattle area)
    I feel like reminding everyone that Kim Jong-Il (the current NK leader's father) was a huge film buff who once kidnapped a prominent South Korean filmmaker because the filmmakers in the North were not good enough for him. Source

    Another fun fact: Saddam Hussein (former Iraqi dictator) was a romance novelist on the side
    Be a human, not a machine.

    Angie Kritenbrink
    akritenbrink on most social media

Sign In or Register to comment.