Prince "Ragger" Reveal

str8zstar

Ok, so am I the only one who wasn't mad that Sam didn't catch what Gilly was trying to say about Prince "Ragger" and his annulment? I mean, why else would that be something that tips him off to a larger clue...HE HAS NO IDEA JON ISN'T THE BASTARD SON OF NED STARK!

In the show, we only know this because of Bran's vision and he hasn't relayed that to Sam (or anyone else) yet. So putting it on Sam to piece that together from some random notes about shits is pretty dumb. But I have been hearing this from a lot of podcasts lately, especially Binge Mode. They were very disappointed--and I get it, it was a HUGE reveal for the show--but putting that on Sam after he had another shitty day of old dudes not listening to him, is lame.

Also, I really think that D&D just intended it to be dropped in as a wink to the audience at this point. We all know it will come out later in the show, that's a given. Maybe not a smart move of them to play it for laughs, but there are bigger issues with the episode overall than this one, IMO.

dochielomn

For me, I wasn't mad that Sam glossed over it.  As you pointed out, he has no reason to suspect that Jon isn't Ned's bastard.  It's more like, if Bran tells Jon or somehow Jon learns that he's actually Lyanna's baby and he was born in the Tower of Joy in Dorne and this would probably mean that his real father is Rhaegar Targaryen, then it would be nice for Sam to say "hey, wait a minute, Gilly said something about Rhaeger having his marriage annulled and marrying someone else, that means, that you (Jon) are the legitimate heir to the throne!"  So, it's more about a payoff later should Sam learn that Jon's parents are R + L then a payoff right now because as mentioned, Sam doesn't know. 

Travis

Personally, I'm a little back and forth. When I watched it it didn't bother me, but kind of like A.Ron said on the cast thought it was a little overly "cute" of them to do. It was easily forgivable though because it was a fun moment. I do understand where Mallory and Jason are coming from about Sam acting very much against his character. That scene is understandable to me, I mean who hasn't had a super frustrating day at work and you've been in essence working non stop and you just don't have the mental space, but him just leaving the Citadel like that was a huge head scratcher, too big of a head scratcher. Also, I didn't realize until listening to Binge Mode that he was quoting his father which may have made some sense if he had been told what had happened to them, but as he hadn't it is some pretty big BS. I think the moment with the reveal is really understandable on its own, but when you combine it with everything there was a whole lot of Sam not really acting like Sam going on.

In the end, I'm not the most meticulous of watchers and I wasn't nearly as frustrated with the episode, or the Sam thing, than the coverage that I've been taking in, but I do see where everyone is coming from.

str8zstar

Travis said:

In the end, I'm not the most meticulous of watchers and I wasn't nearly as frustrated with the episode, or the Sam thing, than the coverage that I've been taking in, but I do see where everyone is coming from.

Same here. I didn't get the vitriol over the "Ragger" scene, I got a good laugh out of it. But I agree, it was probably a bit too "cute". I think Sam quoting his father was maybe them trying to show his Tarly-like tendencies, not very Sam-like as we've known him, but he is at a low point (for him, though we know he's close to cracking some codes), so to me it makes sense that maybe he is doubting himself and giving his dad's words more credence. Leaving the Citadel in a huff definitely just feels like plot machinations, though, for sure.

wildcard

I saw it as planting a seed for the future reveal to Jon of his parentage.  Much like Bran's vision, revealing it now to the viewers prevents it from seeming to come out of nowhere when it is revealed to him.   Imagine Jon running into Bran and Sam and being told all of this information that they had discovered entirely off-screen. 

just_Brian

The annulment is only important in the sense that it gives Jon a stronger claim to the Iron Throne.  I can't see this playing out in a significant way unless Jon and Dany are vying for the throne.  I do not see Jon aspiring to that unless he needs the claim to pull rank on Dany to get her to fight in the north.  I fully expect Dany to be on board with Jon before any revelation to his parentage occurs.

dochielomn

just_Brian said:

The annulment is only important in the sense that it gives Jon a stronger claim to the Iron Throne.  I can't see this playing out in a significant way unless Jon and Dany are vying for the throne.  I do not see Jon aspiring to that unless he needs the claim to pull rank on Dany to get her to fight in the north.  I fully expect Dany to be on board with Jon before any revelation to his parentage occurs.

But note, Jon's goal was never to become leader at Winterfell or even "King of the North" but once the people wanted him to be it, he accepted.  He had Sansa right there and could have just said "no my lords, Sansa is true born and you should name her Lady of Winterfell or Queen of the North" but he didn't.  Jon stood up and accepted the position.  So, if the people learned that Jon is actually Rhaegar's true born son, then they might proclaim that Jon should be King since he has a better claim than Dany.  In which case, Jon might do the same exact thing and accept it, even if it's not what he wanted/intended.

webswinger

just_Brian said:

The annulment is only important in the sense that it gives Jon a stronger claim to the Iron Throne.  I can't see this playing out in a significant way unless Jon and Dany are vying for the throne.  I do not see Jon aspiring to that unless he needs the claim to pull rank on Dany to get her to fight in the north.  I fully expect Dany to be on board with Jon before any revelation to his parentage occurs.

The annulment is stupid. They didn't need one the Targs have been taking multiple wives from the beginning and marrying siblings too. Westeros.og just put out something on annulments in westeros. I'll have to see what they say about it.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

GredalBee

It seems like 70/30 book readers didn't like it.  I believe it's new information, not just on the show, but across the board.  And it was played for comedy.  What if Davos said, "You better get to your favorite establishment because you're going to be harder than Rhaegar after he got his marriage annulled."  Really? That's how you reveal that info? @akritenbrink just made a thread about this, but I actively dislike Gilly and whatever mouth-agape performance that is.  Didn't like the scene at all.

KingKobra

Wrong thread "Opps"!