The race to the finish and the DDs (potential spoilers)

HatorianHatorian Dagobah
edited August 2017 in Game of Thrones
So many people, including the guys think to seem the whole reason we are racing to the end of the season and shortcutting episodes is because the DDs are done and want to move on, I'm sure there's some secondary reasons like fatigue from the production staff and the crazy logistics involved filming across Europe.

But I think it's say to say the show has suffered this season from the condensed timing and the wanted need to wrap things up.

So why can't HBO, the biggest entertainment premium cable provider in Teh business come up with a way to extend the last 2 Seasons to 10 episodes each and give the DDs some additional personel help. I'm sure there's a hundred of the brightest minds in Hollywood that would die to be a part of GOT and help see it through the finish. Not saying push the DDs out but maybe have the focus more on the story board and outline rather than all the nitty gritty. Let some others do the real dirty work when it comes to fleshing out scenes from s treatment. This would allow the DDs to retain Creative control but take away the time and pressure to conclude this too fast.

I just really think the show is starting to suffer from shortcuts, fast pacing, and the need to build plots that are that help progress the story quickly. I know a lot of it can be chalked up to fantasy and the "no fluff rule" but it's just getting way past that point.

There's a lot of scenes that can be added to stretch out the show without slowing it down too much.

Better showcase the travel requirements( I'm not even a big complainer of the jet packing but they certainly can make it better) you can make the travel it interesting, maybe a chase against Eurons pirates. Or finding shortcuts that can help explain how they get to places so fast.

Show More of Sam at the citidel learning his craft more, the unsullied trying to find a way back to their queen, show what Euron has been up to, show more of the backlash of the common people against the Lannister after basically murdering and burning almost all of he likeable leaders in KL. what happened to edmure, how did gendry get back to KL, a scene with Tyrion and Bron, more flashbacks or forward with Bran. What does he see, has he impacted anything else. Show us a more raeghsr and Lyanna through Bran. What are the northern leaders thinking about Jon abandoning his castle, how are the defenses being built, show the mountain wrecking some serious shop on pissed off commoners and remanents of the faith. Maybe even go back to Meeren and have some scenes with Dario trying to keep peace and find. Way to get back to Dany. Find more plausible ways to avoid these crazy actions for plots sake.

I could go on.

There's some much more to be shown. And if the DDs
Really want to control the main arcs then pass off some work to the B squads to do the less important scenes. I don't think it would take too much more time to stretch these last Seasons into 10 episodes. And with ratings being smashed the budgets are there.

There's no way HBO or anyone else involved with royalties and money want this to end. But they can also make sure it doesn't outstay it's welcome either.
Schlupp

Comments

  • Establish some rules to ice, fire, faceless and 3ER Magic, especially the limits, costs and consequences of using those. Like with Jojen and Melissandre. 
  • Orrrr is it that everyone is looking for the intricate plots that we started with, which eventually have to pay off/end so that the story can wrap up. Do we really need 3 episodes to show more detail or can we get to the "main points". They (D&D) won't win either way. When they do what they are doing now people complain that it's going too fast, when they go "slow" people complain about it being boring.

    We are getting for down to the final hours of the show and people are getting anxious period. For me, I'm withholding judgement until the final bell tolls. We may have to look at this as a whole and see he beginning, middle and end as one large story ?which really it is). Some of my favorite books start of slow then it's a rollercoaster to the end.
    CaptainTripsphoenyx1023Dani_Armindo
  • KingKobra said:

    Orrrr is it that everyone is looking for the intricate plots that we started with, which eventually have to pay off/end so that the story can wrap up. Do we really need 3 episodes to show more detail or can we get to the "main points". They (D&D) won't win either way. When they do what they are doing now people complain that it's going too fast, when they go "slow" people complain about it being boring.

    We are getting for down to the final hours of the show and people are getting anxious period. For me, I'm withholding judgement until the final bell tolls. We may have to look at this as a whole and see he beginning, middle and end as one large story ?which really it is). Some of my favorite books start of slow then it's a rollercoaster to the end.

    That's the point though. We're getting down to the final hours because they want to end it. Not because the there isn't more story to be told
    ElisaSchlupp
  • edited August 2017
    I agree with the idea that this season could have easily been 10 episodes - not to show characters travelling in detail so people stop complaining about jetpacking, but so the arcs could be fleshed out a little more, some more nuance could be added like in the old seasons, and so some of the plot developments they're hitting us with could be less rushed and make more sense.

    What I don't agree with is this (very widespread) idea that D&D are "done" with it and just want to move on. They very well could be getting tired of making the show, but is your opinion of them as writers and storytellers and professionals really so low that you think they'd deliberately rush the ending of the biggest project of their careers, the biggest show on TV, and make the quality of it suffer as a result, just so they could be done with it quicker? I don't agree with plenty of the storytelling choices they've made on GoT, not to even mention the whole Confederate thing, but I really don't buy that they'd rush the ending for selfish reasons.

    There were talks last year (or maybe the year before) that they were considering whether the show was going to be seven seasons, or eight. They literally can't make more than 10 episodes a year, so if it had been seven, that's how long the final season would've been. Everything from this year and next year would've been stuffed into 10 episodes. It would've been even messier than it currently is, but if they were really "done" and in a rush to move on, that's the option they would've taken. Instead they decided on 13 episodes across two years - a whole extra year of working on the show for them, even with a reduced episode count. It wouldn't have been that much different for them to just do 10 episodes in season seven and 10 in season 8, which makes me think they either genuinely thought 13 was the right number of episodes for the story and only realized how much they'd have to rush certain plots once they really got into it, or that they just wanted the increased budget per episode so the battles and special effects could be better for the climax of the story. Or a combination of the two.

    I don't have much to say about the rest of what's here, I just think it's time to put this myth about the Double D's to bed. They fuck up sometimes, but I genuinely think they care about the show and are doing what they think is best for it, right or wrong.
    KingKobraSchlupp
  • I think if they thought 13 episodes was the right amount then I think they made a poor decision.

    I'm not even mad about the whole capture a wight plan. I mean there's a huge "anti-pseudo science" thread in the forums that basically argues most people with Common sense don't believe in magic or conspiracy type theories. So it's not that implausible for our characters to make an argument that they need to actual prove the undead exist. It's like if someone today said vaccines killed the only way rational people would believe that would be by undeniable proof from their own eyes. If I started telling people vaccines caused cancer and were destroying our body people would laugh st me and call me a quack. So why is it so hard to believe that our heroes believe the need to showcase indisputable proof to westerosy leadership? I know it's a pretty bad example but that's pretty much what it is. People are not going to believe crazy outlandish allegations without some undeniable proof from their own eyes.
    webswingerElisa
  • I also agree that I'm not sold the DDs who put the last 8-9 years of their life into this show would want to half ass the end cuz their just tired and done. But it does seem to be the most popular reason as to why things have accelerated so much
  • Im missing the character moments, which they could incorporate into the travel in some situations.

    Arya and Sansa catching up, more Jon and Danny development, Tyrion and Jon, Gendry and everyone, Jorah and everyone, The Hound and everyone, Bran and anyone, etc. Just some 3-5min scenes of them talking, possibly while traveling, so we have an idea of what information they share and for how their relationships are working. No high priced special effects or sets necessary.

    Jorah was cured by Sam? Wow that'd be interesting for him to discuss with Jon. Gendry hung out with Arya for weeks and weeks? That'd be cool for him to discuss with her brother. Oh wait, the hound traveled with her too? Neat.
    Elisadarwinfeeshybudesigns
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited August 2017
    Well, then what's your explanation for why they only wanted 16 more episodes and now there are general sentiments that seems rushed and the quality is slipping?

    It doesn't make much sense to think that back when the show was unproven in the first few seasons, they had time for more realism and better plotting but now that the show is a world beater they need to get to the end quickly, they'll skip over detail so that the last seasons will be shorter because that's all they want to do.  

    It seems far more likely to me that what's happened is that they've run out of George R.R Martin material and now the writer's room is finding it as difficult as Martin has been finding it to flesh out and plot the ending.  D&D may not even be particularly good at that; figuring out the intricacies of their quasi-medieval fantasy ending was not part of their job description, Martin is the genre expert, not them.... 


    I agree with the idea that this season could have easily been 10 episodes - not to show characters travelling in detail so people stop complaining about jetpacking, but so the arcs could be fleshed out a little more, some more nuance could be added like in the old seasons, and so some of the plot developments they're hitting us with could be less rushed and make more sense.


    What I don't agree with is this (very widespread) idea that D&D are "done" with it and just want to move on. They very well could be getting tired of making the show, but is your opinion of them as writers and storytellers and professionals really so low that you think they'd deliberately rush the ending of the biggest project of their careers, the biggest show on TV, and make the quality of it suffer as a result, just so they could be done with it quicker? I don't agree with plenty of the storytelling choices they've made on GoT, not to even mention the whole Confederate thing, but I really don't buy that they'd rush the ending for selfish reasons.

    There were talks last year (or maybe the year before) that they were considering whether the show was going to be seven seasons, or eight. They literally can't make more than 10 episodes a year, so if it had been seven, that's how long the final season would've been. Everything from this year and next year would've been stuffed into 10 episodes. It would've been even messier than it currently is, but if they were really "done" and in a rush to move on, that's the option they would've taken. Instead they decided on 13 episodes across two years - a whole extra year of working on the show for them, even with a reduced episode count. It wouldn't have been that much different for them to just do 10 episodes in season seven and 10 in season 8, which makes me think they either genuinely thought 13 was the right number of episodes for the story and only realized how much they'd have to rush certain plots once they really got into it, or that they just wanted the increased budget per episode so the battles and special effects could be better for the climax of the story. Or a combination of the two.

    I don't have much to say about the rest of what's here, I just think it's time to put this myth about the Double D's to bed. They fuck up sometimes, but I genuinely think they care about the show and are doing what they think is best for it, right or wrong.

    Elisa
  • LordBy said:

    Im missing the character moments, which they could incorporate into the travel in some situations.

    Arya and Sansa catching up, more Jon and Danny development, Tyrion and Jon, Gendry and everyone, Jorah and everyone, The Hound and everyone, Bran and anyone, etc. Just some 3-5min scenes of them talking, possibly while traveling, so we have an idea of what information they share and for how their relationships are working. No high priced special effects or sets necessary.

    Jorah was cured by Sam? Wow that'd be interesting for him to discuss with Jon. Gendry hung out with Arya for weeks and weeks? That'd be cool for him to discuss with her brother. Oh wait, the hound traveled with her too? Neat.

    Yea,

    A lot of the best character development happened during travel. Arya/Hound. Brieene and Jaime, etc as you mentioned. That's just the top few off my head.
  • Well, then what's your explanation for why they only wanted 16 more episodes and now there are general sentiments that seems rushed and the quality is slipping?


    It doesn't make much sense to think that back when the show was unproven in the first few seasons, they had time for more realism and better plotting but now that the show is a world beater they need to get to the end quickly, they'll skip over detail so that the last seasons will be shorter because that's all they want to do.  

    It seems far more likely to me that what's happened is that they've run out of George R.R Martin material and now the writer's room is finding it as difficult as Martin has been finding it to flesh out and plot the ending.  D&D may not even be particularly good at that; figuring out the intricacies of their quasi-medieval fantasy ending was not part of their job description, Martin is the genre expert, not them.... 


    I agree with the idea that this season could have easily been 10 episodes - not to show characters travelling in detail so people stop complaining about jetpacking, but so the arcs could be fleshed out a little more, some more nuance could be added like in the old seasons, and so some of the plot developments they're hitting us with could be less rushed and make more sense.


    What I don't agree with is this (very widespread) idea that D&D are "done" with it and just want to move on. They very well could be getting tired of making the show, but is your opinion of them as writers and storytellers and professionals really so low that you think they'd deliberately rush the ending of the biggest project of their careers, the biggest show on TV, and make the quality of it suffer as a result, just so they could be done with it quicker? I don't agree with plenty of the storytelling choices they've made on GoT, not to even mention the whole Confederate thing, but I really don't buy that they'd rush the ending for selfish reasons.

    There were talks last year (or maybe the year before) that they were considering whether the show was going to be seven seasons, or eight. They literally can't make more than 10 episodes a year, so if it had been seven, that's how long the final season would've been. Everything from this year and next year would've been stuffed into 10 episodes. It would've been even messier than it currently is, but if they were really "done" and in a rush to move on, that's the option they would've taken. Instead they decided on 13 episodes across two years - a whole extra year of working on the show for them, even with a reduced episode count. It wouldn't have been that much different for them to just do 10 episodes in season seven and 10 in season 8, which makes me think they either genuinely thought 13 was the right number of episodes for the story and only realized how much they'd have to rush certain plots once they really got into it, or that they just wanted the increased budget per episode so the battles and special effects could be better for the climax of the story. Or a combination of the two.

    I don't have much to say about the rest of what's here, I just think it's time to put this myth about the Double D's to bed. They fuck up sometimes, but I genuinely think they care about the show and are doing what they think is best for it, right or wrong.


    Yea, I said this a few Seasons back. Not finishing the books is going to be a blessing in disguise for GRRM. He's going to learn all the mistakes from the show and write an ending that avoids the issues of the last 2 Seasons. I'd put money that, if GRRM actually finishes the books, the story telling will be much better and will probably have a better ending. He's in a perfect spot. Silver lining. If the the show ends being widely praised then he simply just needs to match it. If the show gets blasted for its ending then he can write up another ending and simply say the TV show got it wrong for whatever reasons. IE he didn't know the ending at the time they wrote it for TV or he can be much more detailed and nunanced that even if it's similar it's done in a more satisfying way.
  • If he didn't know the ending, I would call BS. They've said for sometime now that they have the outline to the finish (and the end GRRM wants). At this point we'll probably have 600 page books which will delve into the details some are looking for (which funny enough are what people complained about in much of book 4/5). For my friends that haven't read the books (or haven't finished them) they are loving this season. I don't hear any of the complaints that I see on the forums.
  • KingKobra said:

     For my friends that haven't read the books (or haven't finished them) they are loving this season. I don't hear any of the complaints that I see on the forums.

    Does that mean they aren't valid complaints? My brother enjoys Walking Dead and doesn't care that the writing can be awful. That doesn't mean I'm going to just accept it as good writing and enjoy the show. 
    Elisa
  • Dummy said:

    KingKobra said:

     For my friends that haven't read the books (or haven't finished them) they are loving this season. I don't hear any of the complaints that I see on the forums.

    Does that mean they aren't valid complaints? My brother enjoys Walking Dead and doesn't care that the writing can be awful. That doesn't mean I'm going to just accept it as good writing and enjoy the show. 
    Did I say that at all? Nope...
  • edited August 2017
    @Doctor_Nick They had room for more realism and nuance in the earlier seasons because they were adapting books that existed. Of course there would be a drop off once they got to the point where they were either having to condense huge amounts of the books into a single season (season 5) or almost entirely working off a very vague outline (seasons 6-8). Now I think they could have taken their time with Feast and Dance more instead of blowing through almost all of it in season 5 and pushing a few storylines back to season 6, but I feel like they probably felt under pressure to keep the momentum of the show moving forward after it proved to be such a massive hit. If they had adapted Feast and Dance close to what they were in the books, and left in stuff like Quentyn, Brienne's wandering of the riverlands, Sansa's plot in the Eyrie, all of the Greyjoys, all of the Dornish, Aegon and Jon Connington, etc, it would've taken three seasons and probably caused a massive drop off in viewers (people got fed up of that slow pace in the books - do you think the average TV viewer's attention span is longer or shorter?) which they couldn't afford to have, since the show pretty much needs to keep being the massive hit that it is to justify how much money it takes to make it.

    As for the ending - they know the ending. Martin has known the ending for years, and the commitments he made by including prophecies and foreshadowing in the existing books means he cannot change the ending, even if he wanted to. D&D probably know more about the ending than they know about the stuff that has to happen to get to the ending, which is why the show seems so messy in places now - Martin has years to figure out how all these intricate plot lines will fit together, they have far less time.

    The situation with Game of Thrones isn't one that any one is entirely happy with - not the fans, not D&D and certainly not Martin, but it's a situation that no one really saw coming - everyone thought Martin would be done with the books by now when they started making the show, including Martin himself. It's not really any specific person's fault that things are the way they are, which is why it frustrates me so much that everyone's first instinct when the quality slips is to immediately point fingers at someone.
  • KingKobra said:

    Dummy said:

    KingKobra said:

     For my friends that haven't read the books (or haven't finished them) they are loving this season. I don't hear any of the complaints that I see on the forums.

    Does that mean they aren't valid complaints? My brother enjoys Walking Dead and doesn't care that the writing can be awful. That doesn't mean I'm going to just accept it as good writing and enjoy the show. 
    Did I say that at all? Nope...
    Fair enough. I guess I'm confused as to the purpose of the comment "Everyone I know isn't complaining about this stuff" is
  • Also, I never said that 13 episodes was the right choice, just that they thought it was the right choice at the time, before they got into the specifics of it and realized how fast and loose they were going to have to play a lot of this stuff. I'm not saying "they 100% made the right call", I'm just saying that I don't see any bad faith on their part. They didn't say "oh well fuck it, we want to be done with this so let's just do a rush job and call it a day".
  • Dummy said:

    KingKobra said:

    Dummy said:

    KingKobra said:

     For my friends that haven't read the books (or haven't finished them) they are loving this season. I don't hear any of the complaints that I see on the forums.

    Does that mean they aren't valid complaints? My brother enjoys Walking Dead and doesn't care that the writing can be awful. That doesn't mean I'm going to just accept it as good writing and enjoy the show. 
    Did I say that at all? Nope...
    Fair enough. I guess I'm confused as to the purpose of the comment "Everyone I know isn't complaining about this stuff" is
    Reread the post, I specifically mentioned those who haven't read the books or haven't finished them. I didn't say "everyone I know". Even if it was everyone I know, that is but a small fraction of an even smaller fraction of people that have opinions on the matter. It's giving a counterpoint to the idea that there is a "difinitive" drop in quality of the show, that is all, nothing more, nothing less. I may not agree with the sentiment that this season is bad because it feels rushed, but I understand people's viewpoints.
  • 13 episodes could have been fine. Some of these have been short, so how about 13 90min episodes with some extra dialog on the cheap?
  • Just to add, it seems they have had this plotted for quite some time.
    http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/features/game-of-thrones-creators-on-season-5-were-building-to-a-crescendo-20150407

    I'm not saying that they couldn't be more nuanced here and there or fleshed out a little more, what we are seeing now though is a culmination of many years of planning.
    Elisa
  • I haven't read any of the books. I'm not sure about your friends if they think there's no quality difference between the first few seasons and what's going on now.
    KingKobra said:

    If he didn't know the ending, I would call BS. They've said for sometime now that they have the outline to the finish (and the end GRRM wants). At this point we'll probably have 600 page books which will delve into the details some are looking for (which funny enough are what people complained about in much of book 4/5). For my friends that haven't read the books (or haven't finished them) they are loving this season. I don't hear any of the complaints that I see on the forums.

  • Oh is it only 13 episodes? Seems odd for a very successful show to cut itself short like that.
  • edited August 2017

    I haven't read any of the books. I'm not sure about your friends if they think there's no quality difference between the first few seasons and what's going on now.


    KingKobra said:

    If he didn't know the ending, I would call BS. They've said for sometime now that they have the outline to the finish (and the end GRRM wants). At this point we'll probably have 600 page books which will delve into the details some are looking for (which funny enough are what people complained about in much of book 4/5). For my friends that haven't read the books (or haven't finished them) they are loving this season. I don't hear any of the complaints that I see on the forums.



    Oh is it only 13 episodes? Seems odd for a very successful show to cut itself short like that.

    Where did I say they don't see a difference? All I said was that they have been loving this season. Many of the "regular folk" like the fast action, etc who check really this season has been full of. Those that struggled early on with the numerous characters and plots and schemes are most likely breathing fresh air because we have gotten to a point where things are pretty straight forward. I guess it's a good thing they are my friends and not yours, since you wouldn't be sure of them, off one show view.

    I think they explained themselves pretty well in the interview. Could they keep going? Sure, but then we start running into a "how long is too long" problem. For them I'm sure it made sense to set a limit on themselves and end it before they got to the point of "this show need to end". Let's face it, much of this was decided before the show was a huge success. HBO wants this show to go on, but I respect them for going out on top so to speak and sticking with their plan.
  • This sentiment makes sense for a show that doesn't have an ending they know they want to get to.  It doesn't make sense when you know where you're going but you're taking shortcuts in your super successful show because.... reasons.  It's not like they're trying to extend for 1 or 2 seasons past the natural ending, they're quickly trying to get to the ending they know they want to get to.
    KingKobra said:

    I think they explained themselves pretty well in the interview. Could they keep going? Sure, but then we start running into a "how long is too long" problem. For them I'm sure it made sense to set a limit on themselves and end it before they got to the point of "this show need to end". Let's face it, much of this was decided before the show was a huge success. HBO wants this show to go on, but I respect them for going out on top so to speak and sticking with their plan.


  • I mostly blame GRRM for not finishing the fucking books by now come on George! I think DnD are better adapters than whole cloth storytellers and do some of their best work when they have good novels to adapt instead of broad story points and bullet notes. The Double D's also share some blame though for deciding to wrap this up in two shortened seasons, I get it that they're tired of GoT at this point but I think two seasons of 10 episodes to finish out a full eight seasons would have probably been enough time to go a bit more in depth and eliminated a lot of the logistic problems this season and really 7 more episodes isn't that hard of a sell, they're probably making millions so one more year couldn't hurt that much.
    In summary everyone's a little at fault, except HBO execs I guess, which is a weird circumstance given what's happening with AMC execs right now, they'd probably be fine with this lasting 5 more years.
  • GRRM should take some blame for not finishing the books, and the DDs did sign on to adapt not write the last 1/4 of the story. That being said last year the They should have brought people in to help them with the last seasons. Even before this season started I thought there was enough story for 2 full seasons. Now with only 2 episodes left in this season I can say with certainty that there is enough for 10 episodes this season. GoT glossed over the taking of 3 major castles in the first few episodes. That alone could have taken us to episode five. That would have also given us more character development. Dickon could have died with us carrying much more about him. We could have seen him in the battle for Highgarden do some cool stuff along with the things he did at the battle of the loot train. Like people before have said there are a lot of scenes that feel left out or hurried. Asoiaf and GoT made its ones by not being afraid to let a scene breathe. Now it feels like some characters are doing things to move the plot along or regressing for tension. I think Sansa in particular has been all over the place. When Jon was in Winterfell she was advising him to rule almost like Cersei, now she is ruling like jon and Arya is taking the hard line. Danny is almost as bad changing her ruling style to whatever the plot needs her or again to cause tension. Hell this past eps. she changed mid scene. She startvoff by tell thing the captives that Cersei is spreading lies about her she doesn't want to murder them make their wives widows, then she says bend the knee or die. WTF? I hear people say that it's war and she killed combatants, that is bullshit. She killed prisoners of war. It also didn't mesh with her character, in the past she gave the common folk/slaves the choice to follow her or go their own way. She should have done that with the captured army too. I know some will say that why let them go if that can fight you again. I say the benefits are much greater if you let them go. First it combats the propaganda that Cersei is telling them realm, and enforces Danny's message. Second the destructive power of the dragons will be spread through the common folk along with Danny not being a Mad Queen. If you recall Rob was becoming a legend with the commoners, and that was a cause of concern gir Tywin. She should have not burned the Tarlys, she should have kept them prisoner. Every argument that Randel gave had a counterpoint that would appeal to his honor. I may be ranting now but I truly believe this season could have been handled much better. Just because you are in 1/4 of a story doesn't mean you stop character development or bring in new plot twists.
    Doctor_NickElisa
  • I don't think you can fix it at this point, but this season is giving me some Rome flashbacks. Fun as the second half of that show's second season was, the seams very much showed.
    Elisa
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