The Last Jedi (Spoilers Section)

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  • As for the comparison to BvS. I'm sure part of it is expectations, people expected Last Jedi to be great. NO ONE expected BvS to be great.. lol SO being better than terrible when you expect terrible will score you higher than being worse than great when you expected great. 

    Human nature. 
  • Saw it late tonight. Haven't listened to the Bald Move take yet. I thought it was good but not great--my first impression is that I liked it more than Rogue One but less than TFA. 

    It does bother me a little that in TFA the Order felt like almost a terrorist organization with one big shot to blow up the Republic with a secret weapon but now they suddenly seem to completely outclass the Republic remnants militarily. Some other stuff bothered me a little too, but I did like it a lot, just didn't love it like I did TFA for whatever reason.
    JaimieT
  • It felt like a slightly better prequel to me. I didn't buy any of the logistics, specially on the first order side, and since there wasn't any really plan by Snoke to turn Rey and Ren into something beyond Jedi/Sith what's the point at all? If Ren kills Rey the light side will just generate a new champion so what's the point here?
    The Fin part was pointless, I was hoping the tracker would be like a young force user and there would be a moral dilemma to kill him / her. They talk about other students of Luke but never show them.
    I thought Snoke would be like an old Jedi master who is not so much strong but very experienced in the ways of the force. More like a librarian / teacher sort of type who developed a vision of the future for the force but was never really taken seriously by any of the other Jedi masters. Now he finds his moment and tries to guide the new generation. I expected him to be after the Jedi books and other old artifacts, they could have even been on board the rebel fleet so they couldn't be just destroyed. Leia should have died or at least taken captive by Kylo who could have taken her in his ship.
    Since the fight was hopeless anyway, why didn't the rebels just abandonded ship immediatly and scattered through the outer rim to regroup? They should have at least have allies to hide them which is way less suicidal than going toe to toe with dreadnoughts.
    I see no character development at all, people either sacrifice themselves pointlessly or end up right where they started.
    alina_mac
  • edited December 2017
    I had a few issues with this movie, but I think that all the awesome moments made it my favorite Star Wars film (taking the #1 spot from Force Awakens). Force Awakens was great, but it was a resetting period, a time when Disney had to prove that Star Wars was in the right hands, so they competently remade A New Hope.

    Force Awakens was testing the water, Last Jedi is the true vision of where Disney want to take the Star Wars universe. Luke has gone through an existential crisis. He has had failures, and now his failure has become his (and the galaxy's) greatest enemy. Seeing as how this franchise is going to go on for the next decade (at least), I am excited to see this new take on the nature of the Galaxy.

    We learn that the battle of the Light vs. Dark side is an innate, grass-roots struggle, with Rey coming from nothing and the stable boy on Canto Bight having Force powers. Also, the fight between Rey, Kylo, and the Praetorian Guards was awesome. The Luke & Kylo showdown was great. The new AT-ATs look great. I started to tear up when Luke was meditating before the twin sunset, mirroring his scene from A New Hope (it even had the same Force theme playing). It was such a perfect send-off for his character.

    As for my issues, Episode XIII was weirdly paced. It wasn't slow, but I felt like it was about to end at a few points. The Poe/Finn & Rey/Luke/Kylo plots felt like separate movies up until the last third. Also, Leia Force floating back into the ship was a little crazy. 

    Kudos the writers & trailer editors, though. They trolled the audience hard with moments from this film (especially with the Leia death).
    DaveyMacElisaweeniegirl
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Schlupp said:
    It felt like a slightly better prequel to me. I didn't buy any of the logistics, specially on the first order side, and since there wasn't any really plan by Snoke to turn Rey and Ren into something beyond Jedi/Sith what's the point at all? If Ren kills Rey the light side will just generate a new champion so what's the point here?
    The Fin part was pointless, I was hoping the tracker would be like a young force user and there would be a moral dilemma to kill him / her. They talk about other students of Luke but never show them.
    I thought Snoke would be like an old Jedi master who is not so much strong but very experienced in the ways of the force. More like a librarian / teacher sort of type who developed a vision of the future for the force but was never really taken seriously by any of the other Jedi masters. Now he finds his moment and tries to guide the new generation. I expected him to be after the Jedi books and other old artifacts, they could have even been on board the rebel fleet so they couldn't be just destroyed. Leia should have died or at least taken captive by Kylo who could have taken her in his ship.
    Since the fight was hopeless anyway, why didn't the rebels just abandonded ship immediatly and scattered through the outer rim to regroup? They should have at least have allies to hide them which is way less suicidal than going toe to toe with dreadnoughts.
    I see no character development at all, people either sacrifice themselves pointlessly or end up right where they started.

    That's too good re: Snoke. That's approaching Thrawn. I like it, but the movies are stuck on the sedentary Sith master who knows lightning magic.
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Anyone want to rank/rate?

    1. ESB - 10/10
    2. ANH - 9/10
    3. TFA - 7/10
    4. RoTJ - 6/10
    5. TLJ - 5/10
    6. Prequels - 3/10

    I was really hoping TLJ would hit the #3 spot. 

    rkcrawf
  • I love the movie! There was some spots you could poke at, but every movie has those. Like the whole Casio skit was a bit boring and when they started riding those animals it started to feel a bit like the prequels. A bit to much cgi. Almost got bored with it. But when Yoda showed up I thought the movie really took off. There was a lot of speculation to this movie and.plot points, that's where I belive people are saying it sucked. It didn't fit their needs to what happened. I thinks it's awesome to see new Star Wars movies. Going to take my kids today. A little memory they will hold on to forever that they seen every star wars movie with their dad. May not be much to some but it feels special to me. 
     Over all I'd give the movie a 8-9 out of ten. I could say more things to nitpick but just gonna take it for what it is
  • JaimieT said:
    Anyone want to rank/rate?

    1. ESB - 10/10
    2. ANH - 9/10
    3. TFA - 7/10
    4. RoTJ - 6/10
    5. TLJ - 5/10
    6. Prequels - 3/10

    I was really hoping TLJ would hit the #3 spot. 

    i think same in rank though maybe not in score (i'd rate tfa, rotj, and tlj all higher than you)--with rogue one between tlj and e1-3.
  • edited December 2017
    Lannitik said:
    MrX said:
    Lannitik said:
    As for why the Metacritic or Rotten Tomatoes score is in the 90s while the people's score is in the 50s/60s is simply because Disney commands weight when it comes to Star Wars. They forced theaters to put it on X number of screens X times(hence why my local theaters had to run it almost 24/7 for the first day(yes even at 3am) even tho they were mostly empty at the time. 
    Critics are GOING to score these movies high. Even people who loved this film, don't think it was better than Empire, and yet the critics supposedly thought so. 

    I doubt it's their real opinion. 

    The user scores on those sites are more bullshit than the critic scores. As of now the Last Jedi has a 5 on metacritic and Batman v Superman has a 7. Yea right. 

    There is a whole lot of self selection bias going on with the type of people who will rate movies online.
    I mean, I understand why you feel that way, because I'm SURE you felt it was a great movie, but it's telling when both sites share the same opinion. 
    It is very reasonable to believe that the critic score is ABSOLUTE bullshit, since supposedly The Last Jedi is as good as Goodfellas.... Oh, and better than Wolf of Wall Street... and almost as good as Dunkirk LOL
    Thats the thing about opinions everyone has got one. If the critic felt that way now it’s BS? And now because someone is a critic it’s believeable that their scores are BS? It’s understandable to not like a movie/tv show, but to project your feelings and say that anyone else who doesn’t think so must be some paid shill, or btshit crazy, etc is well “incorrect” /s. Sometimes it’s better to just say I don’t agree with them. Conspiracy levels have gotten all time high lately ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 
  • alina_macalina_mac Akron, Ohio
    Overall, I liked it. It was a good action movie but maybe not a real good Star Wars movie. Disclaimer: I'm a casual Star Wars fan, not huge the lore and fandom. 

    Positives:
    • I liked the lesson of the movie: Accept your failures and let go of the past.
    • The action sequences were beautiful in both cinematography and choreography.
    • The Rey and Kylo dynamic was interesting and compelling. 
    Negatives:
    • Less of the cartoony casino would have allowed for more training with Luke/Rey and more backstory between Kylo/Snoke. What did Snoke mean to Kylo? Was it a big deal to Kylo for him to betray Snoke? @Luke @Lannitik @A_Ron_Hubbard ;  
    • The tone and pacing was inconsistent. To go from tense moments to comical and lighthearted casino moments felt like emotion whiplash. @JoshuaHeter
    • With dropped subplots (eg Knights of Ren), open-ended mysteries, and plot holes, it kinda feels like Lost (The Angry Joe - "Top ten things that made us angry about TLJ").
    • Luke. The Luke Skywalker from original trilogy would do anything to help his friends and family and fought so hard to find the light in Darth freakin' Vader. Would he not extend that same mercy to his nephew? Would he ignore Leia's call to him? Was Ben Solo turning dark enough of a catalyst for Luke to be so different in this movie? @mcp6842 @darwinfeeshy
    JoshuaHeterLannitikJaimieTrkcrawfalexander.klassendarwinfeeshyGiovanni
  • KingKobra said:

    Thats the thing about opinions everyone has got one. If the critic felt that way now it’s BS? And now because someone is a critic it’s believeable that their scores are BS? It’s understandable to not like a movie/tv show, but to project your feelings and say that anyone else who doesn’t think so must be some paid shill, or btshit crazy, etc is well “incorrect” /s. Sometimes it’s better to just say I don’t agree with them. Conspiracy levels have gotten all time high lately ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 
    It's not my opinion that the critics are pressured by Disney to rate Star Wars high, it's plain fact. 
    Look at the critics rating... ok now look at how it breaks down. You're telling me not a SINGLE CRITIC thought this was a less than average film? NOT ONE? 
    Give me a break! So basically this should win Oscars in that case. Will it? of course not, because we all know it's not that great. 

    This is Lord of the Rings level good? Stop. 

  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    I think this is just an example of the critics giving it lukewarm good reviews and those all get logged into RT as a positive rating. It happens frequently that some movies skew too positive. 
    darwinfeeshy
  • edited December 2017
    voodoorat said:
    JaimieT said:
    Anyone want to rank/rate?

    1. ESB - 10/10
    2. ANH - 9/10
    3. TFA - 7/10
    4. RoTJ - 6/10
    5. TLJ - 5/10
    6. Prequels - 3/10

    I was really hoping TLJ would hit the #3 spot. 

    i think same in rank though maybe not in score (i'd rate tfa, rotj, and tlj all higher than you)--with rogue one between tlj and e1-3.
  • JaimieT said:
    Anyone want to rank/rate?

    1. ESB - 10/10
    2. ANH - 9/10
    3. TFA - 7/10
    4. RoTJ - 6/10
    5. TLJ - 5/10
    6. Prequels - 3/10

    I was really hoping TLJ would hit the #3 spot. 


    I would rank TLJ below the Prequels.
    JaimieT
  • JaimieT said:
    Anyone want to rank/rate?

    1. ESB - 10/10
    2. ANH - 9/10
    3. TFA - 7/10
    4. RoTJ - 6/10
    5. TLJ - 5/10
    6. Prequels - 3/10

    I was really hoping TLJ would hit the #3 spot. 

    1. Empire Strikes Back
    2. The Last Jedi
    3. Revenge of the Sith 
    4. A New Hope
    5. Rogue One
    6. The Force Awakens
    7. Attack of the Clones
    8. The Phantom Menace
    9. Return of the Jedi
  • Lannitik said:
    KingKobra said:

    Thats the thing about opinions everyone has got one. If the critic felt that way now it’s BS? And now because someone is a critic it’s believeable that their scores are BS? It’s understandable to not like a movie/tv show, but to project your feelings and say that anyone else who doesn’t think so must be some paid shill, or btshit crazy, etc is well “incorrect” /s. Sometimes it’s better to just say I don’t agree with them. Conspiracy levels have gotten all time high lately ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 
    It's not my opinion that the critics are pressured by Disney to rate Star Wars high, it's plain fact. 
    Look at the critics rating... ok now look at how it breaks down. You're telling me not a SINGLE CRITIC thought this was a less than average film? NOT ONE? 
    Give me a break! So basically this should win Oscars in that case. Will it? of course not, because we all know it's not that great. 

    This is Lord of the Rings level good? Stop. 

    Did you actually look at the reviews or are you just going based on score? From your post, it seems the latter. I didn’t have to dig far to find more than one who thought it was average to less than average. 
    Lannitik
  • alina_mac said:
    Overall, I liked it. It was a good action movie but maybe not a real good Star Wars movie. Disclaimer: I'm a casual Star Wars fan, not huge the lore and fandom. 

    Positives:
    • I liked the lesson of the movie: Accept your failures and let go of the past.
    • The action sequences were beautiful in both cinematography and choreography.
    • The Rey and Kylo dynamic was interesting and compelling. 
    Negatives:
    • Less of the cartoony casino would have allowed for more training with Luke/Rey and more backstory between Kylo/Snoke. What did Snoke mean to Kylo? Was it a big deal to Kylo for him to betray Snoke? @Luke @Lannitik @A_Ron_Hubbard ;  
    • The tone and pacing was inconsistent. To go from tense moments to comical and lighthearted casino moments felt like emotion whiplash. @JoshuaHeter
    • With dropped subplots (eg Knights of Ren), open-ended mysteries, and plot holes, it kinda feels like Lost (The Angry Joe - "Top ten things that made us angry about TLJ").
    • Luke. The Luke Skywalker from original trilogy would do anything to help his friends and family and fought so hard to find the light in Darth freakin' Vader. Would he not extend that same mercy to his nephew? Would he ignore Leia's call to him? Was Ben Solo turning dark enough of a catalyst for Luke to be so different in this movie? @mcp6842 @darwinfeeshy
    One quibble re Luke. It’s been ~30 years since the OT (ROTJ). We can’t (if we expect our characters to be “living” IMO) expect them to be the same. For reference look at Yoda in TESB who also secluded himself. Much like Yoda Luke turned into a brash, awkward personality. It wasn’t “just” Ben/Kylo, but that one event shook his faith.  Instead of tying to “heal” he ran away and secluded himself where he just lived with it. IMO his actions fit someone who lived in seclusion and avoided contact at all costs. Luke was never really rational to begin with ;) 
    NoobieDoozalina_macdarwinfeeshyFlukesweeniegirl
  • @KingKobra I agree about Luke. I am only a casual fan of SW movies, that is, I like them and I always watch them at once, when they are released. But I don't know the lore, etc.

    But my impressions of Luke is that it doesn't feel strange to me at all, that he should seek solitude after feeling that he has failed and perhaps feeling bitterness, sadness, etc. In fact, I think it makes him very human, in that people are often more energetic and idealistic when they are young, only to feel disappointed by life, when growing older. The great thing is that Luke kind of overcomes the weight of his own failings and so on, and finds peace, after battling one last time. I for one thought that was really beautiful...   :) 
    KingKobraalina_mac
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    @KingKobra I agree about Luke. I am only a casual fan of SW movies, that is, I like them and I always watch them at once, when they are released. But I don't know the lore, etc.

    But my impressions of Luke is that it doesn't feel strange to me at all, that he should seek solitude after feeling that he has failed and perhaps feeling bitterness, sadness, etc. In fact, I think it makes him very human, in that people are often more energetic and idealistic when they are young, only to feel disappointed by life, when growing older. The great thing is that Luke kind of overcomes the weight of his own failings and so on, and finds peace, after battling one last time. I for one thought that was really beautiful...   :) 

    Yes, I think this movie scores a lot more points with casual fans. There are SOME major fans who like it; this isn't a maxim. But in general, I've noticed that this movie is more palatable to people who don't have a synchronous vision of what the Star Wars saga is.
  • JaimieT said:
    @KingKobra I agree about Luke. I am only a casual fan of SW movies, that is, I like them and I always watch them at once, when they are released. But I don't know the lore, etc.

    But my impressions of Luke is that it doesn't feel strange to me at all, that he should seek solitude after feeling that he has failed and perhaps feeling bitterness, sadness, etc. In fact, I think it makes him very human, in that people are often more energetic and idealistic when they are young, only to feel disappointed by life, when growing older. The great thing is that Luke kind of overcomes the weight of his own failings and so on, and finds peace, after battling one last time. I for one thought that was really beautiful...   :) 

    Yes, I think this movie scores a lot more points with casual fans. There are SOME major fans who like it; this isn't a maxim. But in general, I've noticed that this movie is more palatable to people who don't have a synchronous vision of what the Star Wars saga is.
    From my experience (I’m a BIG SW fan) this is mostly true. My second viewing I went with someone who isn’t a SW fan and didn’t see TFA (they know the basics of OT/PT). They really enjoyed TLJ. The laughs hit where they should and emotional/tense/actions scenes were also felt (could hear their reactions). I also asked another friend who was also conflicted after 1st viewing how their child liked it . Their child LOVED it, if anything that means the most to me. In order for these movies to survive they have to appeal to casual fans and the kids. If they can hit both and only upset some of the die hard fans I think they’ll be OK with it. I want to see this series evolve and grow, I’m not always looking for a return to my childhood as I know that “magic” is gone ;) 

    Next weeks box office will tell a lot, but 1st week box office was bananas (~220 million domestic). It’s only behind TFA by ~20 million at the same point. 
  • Why spend all this time getting worked up about a Rotten Tomatoes score? It's been pretty well documented that their methodology is BS, as others have mentioned a critic will write a thoughtful nuanced review with some positives and some negatives and it will just get lumped as"fresh" even if the critic wasn't super high on the film. If you don't like it, don't see it again, NBD, but don't trash those who enjoyed it. Last I check Rotten Tomatoes doesn't factor into Oscar voting.

    gguenotKingKobraLannitik
  • Lannitik said:
    KingKobra said:

    Thats the thing about opinions everyone has got one. If the critic felt that way now it’s BS? And now because someone is a critic it’s believeable that their scores are BS? It’s understandable to not like a movie/tv show, but to project your feelings and say that anyone else who doesn’t think so must be some paid shill, or btshit crazy, etc is well “incorrect” /s. Sometimes it’s better to just say I don’t agree with them. Conspiracy levels have gotten all time high lately ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 
    It's not my opinion that the critics are pressured by Disney to rate Star Wars high, it's plain fact. 
    Look at the critics rating... ok now look at how it breaks down. You're telling me not a SINGLE CRITIC thought this was a less than average film? NOT ONE? 
    Give me a break! So basically this should win Oscars in that case. Will it? of course not, because we all know it's not that great. 

    This is Lord of the Rings level good? Stop. 

    I think it's as good or maybe better than Return of the King, which ended up winning the Oscar, but IMO is the weakest of the LotR movies. I would rank Fellowship and Two Towers higher than The Last Jedi.
    Lannitik
  • I know opinions are opinions, but I don’t understand the negative reactions to this movie. It’s the same people that complain that TFA was a rehash of ANH but then say that TLJ doesn’t feel like a Starwars movie. I thought it was visually stunning, fun, unique, and wasn’t some boring linear hero story. I think all the actors did amazing, the only one that threw me off was the purple hair commander. 

    The opening bombing scene was so cool— probably my favorite space battle scene out of all of the movies. 
    Aww_PHuuCk
  • DaveyMacDaveyMac Tokyo
    edited December 2017
    In the first half of the film, I wasn’t quite sure how much I was enjoying it, but I loved it by the end. 

    I thought the imagery was amazing, especially the salty land battle and then Luke walking out for his standoff. Some of that looked directly inspired by Kurosawa’s “Ran” or something. 

    I also loved a lot of the themes and messaging around dealing failure. 

    I understand people’s criticisms and even agree with some of them. But just talking about my experience, I walked out of the theater elated and I haven’t stopped thinking about it since and it’s been a couple of days. That’s not to say I thought it was perfect or anything. But I can still say I loved it even if I had some issues.
    Aww_PHuuCkNoobieDoozalina_mac
  • edited December 2017
    The point of the Monte Carlo sequence?  To show how "regular people" (Fin and Rose in this instance) can inspire others.  I felt like this whole section of the movie was too long, but I liked it being there thematically.  I believe the point was there to try and explain how the galaxy can move on without a Jedi order, or Empire, calling the shots.  Loved the little kids at the end!
    DaveyMacalina_mac
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    gguenot said:
    I know opinions are opinions, but I don’t understand the negative reactions to this movie. It’s the same people that complain that TFA was a rehash of ANH but then say that TLJ doesn’t feel like a Starwars movie. I thought it was visually stunning, fun, unique, and wasn’t some boring linear hero story. I think all the actors did amazing, the only one that threw me off was the purple hair commander. 

    The opening bombing scene was so cool— probably my favorite space battle scene out of all of the movies. 

    I rate TFA very well, actually.

    It takes time to write a reasoned explanation of why something is subtly bad. And what's the payoff anyway? I doubt I'll change anyone's mind. Do I even want to? Like I said, casual fans seem to love it and I don't begrudge them that it's a well-constructed film. TBH, I'm waiting for Red Letter Media to release their deconstruction... but maybe they'll end up liking it LOL. I have a feeling Rich and Jay will like it but Mike won't, but Mike is RLM so whatever. (RLM is famous for their SW prequel criticism videos.)
  • If there is one thing I keep noticing, it seems to be that a lot of people went right into the theater with all sorts of expectations.  Still don't get this!  I've been avoiding Star Wars spoilers like the plague since 1999; trust me--don't watch trailers, don't read anything about it.  I certainly rolled my eyes a few times at this or that "Prequelly" thing in TLJ, but I genuinely feel like there was nothing in the way of my feeling the extra special excitement of *being about to watch new Star Wars*!  I knew I was going to see this, so I don't understand what I would have gained by mulling over imagery that, from what I'm hearing, is not even necessarily indicative of the actual plot.

    Now, surely someone will point out that they like spoilers, but still, I have yet to hear a logical explanation of how spoiling yourself of something you absolutely plan to watch anyway is a good thing...  
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited December 2017
    The one "positive review" of this movie that gnaws at me is: "The next generation likes this, so that's what matters."

    Cover your ears, young padawans... Ahem. 

    Have the fucking courage of your convictions or simply say you don't have an opinion. If the next generation jumped off a cliff would you? WOULD YOU? 

    But seriously, I'm not fucking out-of-touch with what makes a good narrative. Maybe I have to look up what dabbing is and other kinds of self-expression, but what makes a narrative compelling is timeless and yes I do have a better grasp on that than most 10-year-olds. My dad showed me Star Wars as a kid along with many other films. I enjoyed most of them equally. What do I still watch regularly as an adult? I know anti-heroes and deconstructionism are in vogue, but you still have to follow the rules of a compelling narrative. I fucking love Frozen along with the formulaic Disney princess movies. You can do deconstructionism well, and you can do a shit shoddy job of it like Rian Johnson.

    @Melia004 - Yeah, I stayed away from all trailers and images after the 30 second teaser, which I only saw once and forgot. I went in with no expectations the previous chapters hadn't given me.

    Come to think of it, maybe everyone is stomaching this film much better than me because they had a few months to stew on Rey telling Kylo she needed guidance, and all the plot implications of that (Luke not doing it, Luke's desire for the Jedi to end not being persuasive, etc). Whereas based on how Episode VII ended, I was all ready for Luke to be very interested in Rey's beliefs, as a young Force user who put an end to his self-inflicted exile. 

    I did chuckle at his initial moodiness. I thought, "Oh we're seeing Tosche Station power converters Luke." But he stopped making any sense after that. 

    rkcrawfMelia004
  • For the record i wasn't that hyped for this movie at all and i was still slightly disappointed. I didn't even watch the trailers, i read speculation on stuff a couple of years ago after watching TFA but didn't really revisit any of it since. I didn't really have a lot of expectations. I think probably part of why it feels a little off to old people is because it in style modern. That turns us off a little while making it more accessible for those who don't find comic book movies a little exhausting.  TFA threaded that needle better for me is all, i think. 
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited December 2017
    voodoorat said:
    For the record i wasn't that hyped for this movie at all and i was still slightly disappointed. I didn't even watch the trailers, i read speculation on stuff a couple of years ago after watching TFA but didn't really revisit any of it since. I didn't really have a lot of expectations. I think probably part of why it feels a little off to old people is because it in style modern. That turns us off a little while making it more accessible for those who don't find comic book movies a little exhausting.  TFA threaded that needle better for me is all, i think. 

    I think you're giving yourself too little credit in saying the comic book movies aren't a little exhausting. For instance, aren't Westerns a little exhausting? Aren't musicals a little exhausting? Aren't Biblical swords-and-sandals epics a little exhausting? Huge commercial hits in their day.

    Some of these movies are good, but most of them take all kinds of shortcuts. The Last Jedi took shortcuts, and you're exactly right in linking it to superhero movies. It's relying on those conventions to take its shortcuts, and most audiences are so instilled with those tropes they don't miss the absence of character development.

    Why does Rey not join up with Kylo despite multiple setbacks teaching her how alone she is, despite her showing so much desire for belonging? Because she's the hero, she does right, end of questioning. She hugs Finn; she stayed because of friendship, we don't need to see any expression of that friendship, it just is. <-- sarcasm

    Rey used to be all glowy and real in my mind, but this movie shot her character development to hell. She's fake as fuck in this movie. Kylo Ren and Poe are the only characters who feel real now; Rey has been demoted to cardboard Finn and Rose and Chewie levels. 

    Kylo Ren has his uncle turn a lightsaber on him and he goes apeshit and murders half of his school. Rey was abandoned by her family, sees a father-figure die, sees her best friend mortally wounded, has her hero mock and belittle her talents... but she persists? And that's inspiring? No no, that's determinism. As a writer, you're indicating Rey is made of fundamentally different stuff than Kylo Ren. Ew... how depressing.

    Or maybe have a scene where she's like, "You know what, Kylo? I would join you, but you murdered your classmates, you murdered your father, the only friend I've ever had might be dead because of you, I'm nothing like you, and I'd rather live the rest of my life alone than put my hand in yours." But instead she's like, "No... this doesn't feel right." You're goddamn right it doesn't. What the hell? Weak sauce.

    We have so many people saying, "This is the first Star Wars movie that shows you don't have to be special to do great things." Well sure, at the face of it. But go a little deeper, into the choices people are making, into the ways they are expressing themselves, and the character development is actually quite deterministic. So while the movie is positing that, it hasn't made a convincing argument. I'd say that The Force Awakens is a good example of a movie showing you don't have to be special to do great things. Finn isn't special; he's specifically shown to be one in a million. And Kylo Ren, who is special, is not doing great things.

    The causal relationship was already broken in TFA. But because it's not explicitly spelled out, the hoards watched it once and moved on to the next movie, and never noticed. Now I'm fine with that, with the hoards missing subtlety, and I'm fine with spelling things out, but you need to have things match what you spell out.
    rkcrawf
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