Article about some of the backlash of Last Jedi

http://observer.com/2018/05/star-wars-fandom-toxic-disney-lucasfilm/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

What do do you all think of this? It’s undeniable that there has been some very toxic behavior around this movie. 
Jovial_Falcon

Comments

  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    I'm here for this.
    JaimieT
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited May 16
    Motherfucker I didn't like this movie before "backlash" was a word. 

    I'll read this though.

    Edit: @daric - I don't think I've ever spoken to you on these forums. I just want to say I'm joking. 

    KingKobra
  • bizmarkiefaderbizmarkiefader San Francisco
    This is a problem that goes way farther than star wars. It feels like it's been getting worse since all the gamer gate bullshit.
    voodoorat
  • JaimieT said:
    Motherfucker I didn't like this movie before "backlash" was a word. 

    I'll read this though.

    Edit: @daric - I don't think I've ever spoken to you on these forums. I just want to say I'm joking. 

    Riiissseeeeeeeeee......
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    KingKobra said:
    JaimieT said:
    Motherfucker I didn't like this movie before "backlash" was a word. 

    I'll read this though.

    Edit: @daric - I don't think I've ever spoken to you on these forums. I just want to say I'm joking. 

    Riiissseeeeeeeeee......


    KingKobra
  • edited May 16
    Yeah, the article trying to spin this as specific to Star Wars is very odd. This is a problem that has existed for a long time now. First off, there are plenty of people who complain endlessly about "diversity for the sake of diversity" in media (although to them "diversity for the sake of diversity" seems to mean "any diversity at all", so one wonders in which circumstances, if any, they would deem it acceptable for female, PoC, gay or trans characters to exist - something tells me not many). Then you've got the sheer insufferable, entitled attitude of much of nerd culture - people who take it as a personal affront when a film, TV show or game doesn't give them exactly what they wanted it to give them. At the intersection of the Venn diagram of those two things is horseshit like this.

    Like @bizmarkiefader said, the first time this issue was prominent in the culture was Gamergate in 2014, but if you look back further you can find plenty of examples of this kind of behaviour before then (the treatment of Bioware's Jennifer Hepler back in 2012 is the first one that comes to mind, but there were many others) - all the signs that we were heading towards something like this were there, and they were summarily ignored. Now we're stuck with a deeply toxic fan culture that will make you the center of some nefarious leftist plot in their conspiracy theories the moment you put someone who isn't a straight white dude in your film, and send you death threats at the drop of a hat if you didn't pander to them and them alone.

    (Oh, and The Last Jedi is the best Star Wars film in the series, don't @ me)
    majjam0770Deeken haledarwinfeeshy
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    This article lost me because if you spit in the air, odds are you'll hit a Star Wars fan. So it was actually an examination of nastiness, which I don't automatically find interesting. 
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    What I dislike is how when pointing out the flaws of the movie you now run the risk of being tarred and feathered with the misogynist alt-right brush.  I think they talked about the different buckets of fans who disliked the movie in one of the TLJ episodes of /Film.
    voodoorat
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    What I dislike is how when pointing out the flaws of the movie you now run the risk of being tarred and feathered with the misogynist alt-right brush.  I think they talked about the different buckets of fans who disliked the movie in one of the TLJ episodes of /Film.

    My main beef is I don't have a movie I like. 

    That's not to one-up your fan sadness. At the end of the day I can always point to Red Letter Media, who didn't like the movie either, if I need to feel legitimized. Most Star Wars fans have some residual respect for them because of their excellent prequel critiques.
  • Yeah, the article trying to spin this as specific to Star Wars is very odd. This is a problem that has existed for a long time now. First off, there are plenty of people who complain endlessly about "diversity for the sake of diversity" in media (although to them "diversity for the sake of diversity" seems to mean "any diversity at all", so one wonders in which circumstances, if any, they would deem it acceptable for female, PoC, gay or trans characters to exist - something tells me not many). Then you've got the sheer insufferable, entitled attitude of much of nerd culture - people who take it as a personal affront when a film, TV show or game doesn't give them exactly what they wanted it to give them. At the intersection of the Venn diagram of those two things is horseshit like this.

    Like @bizmarkiefader said, the first time this issue was prominent in the culture was Gamergate in 2014, but if you look back further you can find plenty of examples of this kind of behaviour before then (the treatment of Bioware's Jennifer Hepler back in 2012 is the first one that comes to mind, but there were many others) - all the signs that we were heading towards something like this were there, and they were summarily ignored. Now we're stuck with a deeply toxic fan culture that will make you the center of some nefarious leftist plot in their conspiracy theories the moment you put someone who isn't a straight white dude in your film, and send you death threats at the drop of a hat if you didn't pander to them and them alone.

    (Oh, and The Last Jedi is the best Star Wars film in the series, don't @ me)
    I don't disagree with you about masculine toxicity in fandom, but I think there's something to be said about modern culture in general, and the way people communicate and what we think is acceptable or funny.  Just in this thread, we got a playful "motherfucker," when that's probably not a nice thing to say on the face of it.  I looked up the Jennifer Hepler situation, and the first article I read linked to another about a male developer who got death threats for making changes to CoD weapons ( https://metro.co.uk/2013/08/16/bioware-writer-quits-after-death-threats-to-family-3925970/ ) , so it's not strictly mysoginistic.  And even when it is, it's not always meant to be serious.  I hate to even say this, because I don't like it, but the specific graphic threat she mentions in the article I linked was clearly meant to be a joke, rather than a real threat.  The Observer article about Last Jedi randomly made me think about the Bo Burnham song "Kill Yourself."  It sucks, but that's just the way people talk to each other, especially on the internet.

    Anyway, I say all that just to make the point that I think the more recent and truly mysoginistic/racist critic contingent of Star Wars fandom has been co-mingled with the some from that other part of the fandom that used to say George Lucas killed their childhood by tweaking the mythos of their favorite children's story.   Both speak in often vulgar hyperbole and now criticize some of the story elements of the Last Jedi, for different reasons that are often conflated.

  • What I dislike is how when pointing out the flaws of the movie you now run the risk of being tarred and feathered with the misogynist alt-right brush.  I think they talked about the different buckets of fans who disliked the movie in one of the TLJ episodes of /Film.
    Yeah, I just realized I wasted a lot of words to make the point you already did.  My bad :)
  • edited May 16
    @ken hale First off: I agree with your point that it's not *always* misogyny and that these things can and have happened to men, but it is misogyny *a lot* of the time, and that is worth pointing out and interrogating.

    Secondly, and somewhat more pressingly: someone saying that they're going to kill you and your children is still incredibly fucked up, whether they're actually going to do it or not, or even if it's a "joke", especially since all it takes is a single person willing to actually go out and do it for that to become a reality, and we *know* those people exist out there. Please don't minimize death threats by throwing your hands up in the air and saying "it's the internet, what can you do?" We can do better, is what we can do.
    JaimieTDeemajjam0770
  • I feel like such an outlier as someone who thought the movie was fine, not great, and had a few glaring problems that didn't ruin it for me.I thought it was better than any of the prequels, but worse than the OT and either of the other new movies. 

    That the misogynist, racist idiocy tainted a decent chink of the negative reaction is obvious - there was the "no woman" edit of star wars, all the shit about how Holdo and Leia were bad leaders and were only in the movie in those positions cause they were women, etc etc. There was also completely fair criticism, but so many nerdy communities have gotten so fucking toxic that it gets drowned out by all the MRA, racist assholes spewing their shit into the void. I dunno if nerds were always like this and we just didn't get together enough, or if it's a recent phenomenon, but I'm way more embarrassed now to say I'm a gamer, or play DnD, or magic, or whatever than I was back when I was worried about seeming cool. 

    Another recent example of this was in Magic, the company recently changed the wording on cards that referred to players from "him or her/he or she" to "they." Not only did it save space on the cards, it also was more inclusive. The backlash to this decision was insane. 
    SomeBiscuitmajjam0770
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited May 17
    I have nearly the same placement of the movie in the overall Star Wars movies list as you do (I really have to think about TFA vs. TLJ), I just find it not even a particularly good movie. I think Infinity War was a better movie, for instance, and I routinely skip Marvel movies in theater; if these movies didn’t have Star Wars on the name I’m not sure I would be continuing to see them regularly. 

    And I think that some nerds were definitely always like that, there were plenty of playing with “that guy” horror stories about skeevy people at the gaming table that predate mass internet. It’s just much easier for those sorts of people to let everyone know about it now, anonymously. 

    asmallcat said:
    I feel like such an outlier as someone who thought the movie was fine, not great, and had a few glaring problems that didn't ruin it for me.I thought it was better than any of the prequels, but worse than the OT and either of the other new movies. 

    That the misogynist, racist idiocy tainted a decent chink of the negative reaction is obvious - there was the "no woman" edit of star wars, all the shit about how Holdo and Leia were bad leaders and were only in the movie in those positions cause they were women, etc etc. There was also completely fair criticism, but so many nerdy communities have gotten so fucking toxic that it gets drowned out by all the MRA, racist assholes spewing their shit into the void. I dunno if nerds were always like this and we just didn't get together enough, or if it's a recent phenomenon, but I'm way more embarrassed now to say I'm a gamer, or play DnD, or magic, or whatever than I was back when I was worried about seeming cool. 

    Another recent example of this was in Magic, the company recently changed the wording on cards that referred to players from "him or her/he or she" to "they." Not only did it save space on the cards, it also was more inclusive. The backlash to this decision was insane. 

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