209 - Vanishing Point

A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH

Directed by: Stephen Williams

Written by: Roberto Patino

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Comments

  • Happy Father's Day William!
    Murderbearphoenyx1023cdrivehisdudeness915tpelzyUnderwoodsaraej319SchluppMoonMan13
  • Personally I thought ending it at Teddy shooting hkmself would have been a bit effective, saying that I really enjoyed this episode. Much like last week this show can really do good things when being character focused. 
  • Tough day to be Team William but if I can stand by Stannis the Mannis I can stick with Williams through this L. 
    darwinfeeshyMsAnneMelonuskHatorian
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    Im going to be totally fucking honest about my season 2 expectations - WHERE ARE THE ROCK EM SOCK EM ROBOTS!?!?


    FreddyElisaken hale
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    Happy Father's Day William!
    Lol winner winner chicken dinner! 
    johnnytruantalexander.klassen
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    I was hoping this episode was going to help me care about William but that didn’t happen. We’ve been introduced to a lot of information through his character but never have I felt any investment in his fate, and that’s still true. If he’s a host I don’t really get it, but it would at least be more interesting. 

    The Ford/William conversation at the bar seems important though, so I’ll be curious how everyone interprets that. 

    Probably liked the Teddy/Dolores scene the most, which hasn’t been true in a while. 

    Season finale looks really promising.
    MsAnneElisaMFGbudesigns
  • @chrisk I didn't nec care more about William, but it gave me a greater appreciation for how fucked up he is. He seems like a high functioning internet addict...sort of like Jaquin Phoenix in Her...or your neighbor in Indy who is in love with a girl that he's never met from Surinam. 

    What was really weird to me is how messed up Juliet is. She seemed like a good and reasonably adjusted socialite. For awhile, I thought she was the one loosing fidelity. Then I just thought MIB gave her a helping hand into the tub. But It played out really well.
    KingKobratpelzy
  • edited June 2018
    So she wants to talk to her mom to know why she did it, but she also has William's profile? They made it seem like the profile is what did it, but maybe there is more? If it's just his profile, I'm not a fan of that story line. 
    ElisaMFG
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited June 2018
    Apparently some fans in London will be seeing the season finale this Tuesday, 5 days before the reast of us.

    Soo, yeah, get ready for the leaks and then people passing off the leaks as their own theories in comments and posts in the internet.

    On that note, this is a bizarre move for such a secretive show. This is something Game of Thrones only does for the new season premiere.

    http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/westworld/news/a856356/westworld-season-2-episode-cast-hbo-season-finale/


    browniefive
  • Sela Ward was fantastic.  I thought she really showed the heartbreak and pathos of loving someone who you feel you don't really know, and having those worst suspicions confirmed.  If she's felt that way for 30 years, I would say she had held it together pretty well, honestly.
    Pangs
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited June 2018
    Wow.  I hope the Man in Black is a host acting on some funky programming, because otherwise he sure isn't the smartest turnip that ever fell off the truck, if he ever was. 

    Gee, I left my unencrypted Westworld personality readout / history / clone data (?) in my Slaughterhouse Five book, handily next to a reader console that shows that information in super easy to understand format on the night my wife died.  I may have never moved it.  But there is only ONE man who could possibly know that I have such a thing, because my data security system is foolproof.  Foolproof, I say!

    Are we supposed to be left with the impression that his once in a year pilgrimage to Westworld is what rots the MiB?

    Or perhaps he has a replicant Delos style host that has been training for fidelity in Westworld as Ford suggests at the bar flashback?  Which may be the version of the MiB we're seeing?
    ElisaMFG
  • Dummy said:
    So she wants to talk to her mom to know why she did it, but she also has William's profile? They made it seem like the profile is what did it, but maybe there is more? If it's just his profile, I'm not a fan of that story line. 
    I don't think she wants to talk to her mom at all, I thought she was lying about everything she said right up to the point she revealed that she wanted to destroy him. She knew the profile is what pushed her mom over the edge.
    DummyKingKobrarkcrawfbrowniefiveElisaPangsMelonusk[Deleted User]
  • I wonder if it's a real profile, or doctored.

    Dummy said:
    So she wants to talk to her mom to know why she did it, but she also has William's profile? They made it seem like the profile is what did it, but maybe there is more? If it's just his profile, I'm not a fan of that story line. 

  • So my conundrum is this:

    Emily tells William that Juliet gave her the card, but he still doesn't believe her because he, "never told anyone about my profile" and is confident enough about this to shoot her. And yet, as he's about to cut open her forearm to verify her host status he sees the card and this suddenly changes everything... but why? 

    As I see it this only makes sense if he later went back to the book and couldn't find it so he knows it's been missing all this time.

    But if he did that, then why was he so confident that Emily was lying about her mom sharing his profile with her? He would know it was gone, vanished never to be seen again in fact, so it would therefore make perfect sense that she did exactly that. But even in the face of this he doesn't believe it, which strongly implies at least that he never knew his profile card is missing, so he's confident it's still safely nestled in Slaughterhouse-Five (which has an unreliable narrator btw).

    But if that's the case, why does seeing the card in Emily's hand mean anything to him? Ford is the one that gave him his after all, equipping an Emily host with a copy would be trivial. 
    tpelzybudesigns
  • tpelzytpelzy Dallas
    Dummy said:
    So she wants to talk to her mom to know why she did it, but she also has William's profile? They made it seem like the profile is what did it, but maybe there is more? If it's just his profile, I'm not a fan of that story line. 
    I think Emily just wants her Dad back and the stuff she says about her Mom is her trying to get to William. If she read the profile then she knows her Mom was depressed and drunk, and then she probably watched William murder a child and rape Delores. There's no mystery there, 

    It was annoying the way they tried to show us that she was human. I wish we could have seen the scanner showing she didn't have the explosive in her spine. To me, the profile is not definitive proof. 
    Dummy
  • That doesn't mean human anymore.

    tpelzy said:
    It was annoying the way they tried to show us that she was human. I wish we could have seen the scanner showing she didn't have the explosive in her spine.

    lengmorkcrawf
  • AjasAjas Seattle, WA
    That ballerina song sounded a lot like "Hey Soul Sister" from Train. Now it's stuck in my head. 
  • lengmolengmo RTP, NC
    edited June 2018
    Season 3 is about Elsie dealing with her abandonment issues.
    CapeGabesaraej319Melonusk
  • For me Westworld is riding a fine line. Right now I am putting it on the second season pivot that shows seem to stumble on recently.
    But please stop with the is the man in black might be a host, no he isn't but maybe he is, just fooling you, no really he is, ad infinitum... There is mystery and then there is just being a dick. 
    I am hoping they don't leave loose ends on the who's a host stuff and get rid of or really scale back on messing with the timeline. The first season that served an important purpose now it is just lazy. They have an interesting enough story to tell without these cheap tricks.
    Elisa
  • CretanBullCretanBull Toronto
    edited June 2018
    I don't think he can be a host...the biggest scene from this episode - and what the entire back story lead up to - was him killing his daughter.  If he's a host, all of that story and the impact of her death is gone...I can't imagine a writing team stepping on themselves like that.
    gguenotbrowniefiveBrooklynMDrkcrawf
  • browniefivebrowniefive Minneapolis, MN
    Here's some quick thoughts on the william/emily/juliet/music box situation....mind you this may be a bit of a stream of consciousness, so I apologize now for any lack of order.

    I think Emily was lying to William about wanting to get IN on the Forge because really she was looking for him to incriminate himself. Her true intentions were laid bare in her speech about putting him away. The story about the music box was her still trying to relate to William and get him on her side. She was trying to convince him that she didn't blame him anymore. I know that William had already told us in S1 that she did, so I think this was her trying to work the situation and have William incriminate himself.

    I think William's speech to Juliet after she said, "tell me something true" (can't recall the exact quote) WAS the one true thing. He had laid out that the truth about him was dark. And Juliet knew it (the only one who knew). He thought she was sleeping, obviously, but he laid it out and then hid the profile in the book. I think that was for Juliet to find and see that he did tell her the truth. In that moment he was acting emotionally and therefore felt compelled to leave the truth (profile card) behind for her to find. Clearly that was a bad idea.

    On the instant take the guys said William didn't know his profile was on the card? Something like that. But Ford told William they had his profile as he slid the card to him so the connection was there. William knew it and that's why he left it in the book, as I said above. I think after shooting Emily and seeing she has his profile card he realized he killed his own daughter. In previous shots we see she has his gun tucked behind her back. When she reached behind her back to get the card, he could have easily interpreted that as a host reaching for the gun that we know was back there. She also showed him where his gun was, so he knew, too.

    Lastly, in my mad stream of unorganized thoughts, I think William is losing his mind on if he is a host or not. I don't think he knows, but I think he has phantom feelings in his arm because he's been thinking about it so much. After realizing Emily was real, he went further down the rabbit hole of "what is real" and that's why at the end we see him cutting his arm open. NOT because he knows he's a host, but to try and find some truth to the matter of "did Ford make me a host?"

    If you got this far, thanks for reading. 

    TL;DR - William doesn't know if he's a host and that's why he cuts his arm. Emily was trying to con William into incrimination and that's why her story of the music box doesn't line up with what we see from Juliet's perspective.
    PangsElisaMoonMan13budesigns
  • edited June 2018
    William doesn't know if he's a host and that's why he cuts his arm.

     William is paranoid and delusional per his profile.  It would be weird if he didn't wonder if he was actually a host.
    browniefiveElisaMelonusk
  • Pangs said:
    William doesn't know if he's a host and that's why he cuts his arm.

     William is paranoid and delusional per his profile.  It would be weird if he didn't wonder if he was actually a host.
    Given that it's in his profile, presumably, his host would have those traits as well.
    Elisa
  • I don't think he can be a host...the biggest scene from this episode - and what the entire back story lead up to - was him killing his daughter.  If he's a host, all of that story and the impact of her death is gone...I can't imagine a writing team stepping on themselves like that.
    That's robist! Just because someone's a host doesn't mean their story isn't interesting or that they're incapable of experiencing genuine grief over killing their (own blueprint's) daughter :)

    Looking forward to the finale. After that, I'm done with this bait and switch and switch back and bait again and switch again endless time jumping what is the point mystery puzzlebox of a show...
    CretanBullElisa
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    edited June 2018
    ghm3 said:
    So my conundrum is this:

    Emily tells William that Juliet gave her the card, but he still doesn't believe her because he, "never told anyone about my profile" and is confident enough about this to shoot her. And yet, as he's about to cut open her forearm to verify her host status he sees the card and this suddenly changes everything... but why? 

    As I see it this only makes sense if he later went back to the book and couldn't find it so he knows it's been missing all this time.

    But if he did that, then why was he so confident that Emily was lying about her mom sharing his profile with her? He would know it was gone, vanished never to be seen again in fact, so it would therefore make perfect sense that she did exactly that. But even in the face of this he doesn't believe it, which strongly implies at least that he never knew his profile card is missing, so he's confident it's still safely nestled in Slaughterhouse-Five (which has an unreliable narrator btw).

    But if that's the case, why does seeing the card in Emily's hand mean anything to him? Ford is the one that gave him his after all, equipping an Emily host with a copy would be trivial. 
    CapeGabe said:

    But please stop with the is the man in black might be a host, no he isn't but maybe he is, just fooling you, no really he is, ad infinitum... There is mystery and then there is just being a dick. 
    I am hoping they don't leave loose ends on the who's a host stuff and get rid of or really scale back on messing with the timeline. The first season that served an important purpose now it is just lazy. They have an interesting enough story to tell without these cheap tricks.

    Both of these bother me. I feel like it would have been more impactful (to me) had he shot her, had a panic attack and then tried the sensor on her neck and known for sure she was human, then found the card. As it is I'm still slightly unsure if she was a host. If she wasn't a host, that moment didn't really seem as tragic to William as I'd have thought. If she is a host it's another host/not a host trick, and the death is perhaps meaningless.

    And maybe they wanted that left ambiguous, which really frustrates me. Ambiguity can be great, but not when I have no ground to stand on when watching the scene. Am I watching two hosts? Two hosts who don't know they're hosts? One who does and one doesn't? Is either carrying out Ford's programming? Even if this is all answered, I can't retroactively go back and be emotionally invested in the truth of this scene, and others like it. Just feels like they've kicked this particular can down the road for too long. 

    I have a feeling William isn't a host, but the thought has been nagging at him and he actually hopes he is because it would account for his being such an asshole.

    I do sort of like how he's been dwelling on his arm. Kind of an odd comparison and maybe gross (sorry), but it reminds me of my kids getting lice at school, and me then thinking my head was itching the whole time until we were rid of them. "Do I have what they have?" His own project may have caused him to question his own reality. But then I don't feel like that same worry was present in his last meeting with host James Delos. He seemed pretty confident at that point, and it seems like a time where that nagging concern ought to have bubbled up. 




    voodooratElisaghm3
  • lengmolengmo RTP, NC
    Now the MiB has a reason to save the Forge, as it's the only place his daughter is "alive."

    I wonder what season 3 will bring, if it isn't Maeve in the outside world.  There aren't a lot of existing characters left.
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    I don't think what Emily said and what we see about the music box are incongruous and I don't think this a big leap. She was likely to be a lot younger when Mom gave her the box and it seems likely that Mom found it in the trash and saved it all these years. Clearly Emily didn't live there anymore by Juliet saying "What is she doing here?" to her own daughter after the party.

    She heard what Billy had to say and once she decided to do what she was going to do, she knew she had to leave Emily SOME kind of clue and I think she realized the perfect hiding spot. Emily finding that profile in that box must have clued her in that she was meant to find that card and use it.

    I will admit though that there are plenty of little things they are purposefully doing or hiding from us to keep us guessing that makes this slightly aggravating:

    Twice now we've seen her avoid a host test. (Neck scan and gun test in ep 2)

    William not remembering who was scared of the elephants back in the day. It's played like he thinks it's a host failing a fidelity test. I was going to say that maybe his old ass just misremembered. But I guess it could still be a host failing a fidelity test, but it's him.

    She somehow survived a tiger attack with nary a scratch it seems. I guess the tiger just gave up when they hit the water?

    She has a knack for finding him in a giant park.

    Probably more but those are the ones of the top of my head.
    phoenyx1023browniefiveElisaMelonuskMoonMan13
  • @Murderbear Yea, that's my plain reading on the music box. I also think that here asking William about it was just to see if he knew about Juliet still having the box and whether or not he knew she put the card there. 

    This being West World though, there's probably something more to it. I think this show need's it's own Occam's Razor. Something like "if it seems like there is a straightforward explanation, then someone is a host".

    I prefer less of the trickery myself.
    Elisa
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Yeah, I guess I don't understand A.Ron's assumption that William digging around for his arm port means William knows he's a host. 

    No. It just means William has seen enough crazy shit, including his boss and father-in-law being a android who didn't know he was an android, that he is now questioning whether he could be an android in Fords game. Outside of sawing off the top of your head, digging around to find a port in your forearm is the only way to find out.

    I could see a scenario where he dug around in Emily's arm to confirm she was a host, and now he's questioning himself. I could also see a scenario where he confirmed that she was really his daughter and he just murdered her, and now he's questioning if it's because he's really a host gone wild or just crazy old man.


    Anyhow, what I'm saying is that the real Emily grew up to be a famous ballerina. Confirmed.
    majjam0770browniefiveElisaMelonusk
  • Yeah, I guess I don't understand A.Ron's assumption that William digging around for his arm port means William knows he's a host. 

    No. It just means William has seen enough crazy shit, including his boss and father-in-law being a android who didn't know he was an android, that he is now questioning whether he could be an android in Fords game. Outside of sawing off the top of your head, digging around to find a port in your forearm is the only way to find out.

    I could see a scenario where he dug around in Emily's arm to confirm she was a host, and now he's questioning himself. I could also see a scenario where he confirmed that she was really his daughter and he just murdered her, and now he's questioning if it's because he's really a host gone wild or just crazy old man.


    Anyhow, what I'm saying is that the real Emily grew up to be a famous ballerina. Confirmed.
    Thats how i took it too. If you have created a world where there are robots practically indistinguishable from humans, and you have a close-- albeit negative-- relationship with a genius robot engineer and have been on the forefront of transferring human consciousness to a host AND have had your grip on reality slowly degrade, I dont really blame the MiB in thinking he may be a host. Shit, could be a host and not even realize it.
    CretanBullElisa
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