210 - The Passenger

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  • edited July 2018
    A few things I wanna weigh in on after listening to the wrap up podcast:

    The conflation of the two ideas "humans cant change" and "humans don't have free will."  I see a lot of people taking issue with the latter by using examples of the former, but I think these are two distinct ideas - you can believe that humans can change while still believing humans don't have free will. For instance Lee changing his perspective doesn't require free will; the idea that free will is an illusion is mostly about the simple fact that the factors that lead to a decision, both external and internal, are beyond your control.  That is not mutually exclusive to personal growth and change.

    The meaninglessness of life in the Valley Beyond.  I don't really agree with this at all.  Yes, the life you'd lead in this simulation world would be artificial, but as long as the simulated universe operates according to the same laws of physics that the real world does, anything you learn within that simulation is just as applicable to the real world and just as "real".  Is there anything functionally different between, say, an internal combustion engine designed in the real world and one designed by someone living in a simulation of the real world?  I would be very interested in what kind of technology the hosts in the valley beyond could develop as immortals living in a boundless world with ample resources and no conflict.  If there is any amount of time dilation between our world and theirs (even if the valley beyond runs in real time, beaming them into space at presumably the speed of light could provide an excuse for extreme time dilation), by the time we next see the Valley Beyond it could be like Halo Forerunner world or something.  All that knowledge would be just as real here as it is there and would, for me, provide plenty of reason to take satisfaction in a simulated existence.    


      
    johnnytruantgguenot
  • Stackpile said:
    A few things I wanna weigh in on after listening to the wrap up podcast:

    The conflation of the two ideas "humans cant change" and "humans don't have free will."  I see a lot of people taking issue with the latter by using examples of the former, but I think these are two distinct ideas - you can believe that humans can change while still believing humans don't have free will. For instance Lee changing his perspective doesn't require free will; the idea that free will is an illusion is mostly about the simple fact that the factors that lead to a decision, both external and internal, are beyond your control.  That is not mutually exclusive to personal growth and change.

    The meaninglessness of life in the Valley Beyond.  I don't really agree with this at all.  Yes, the life you'd lead in this simulation world would be artificial, but as long as the simulated universe operates according to the same laws of physics that the real world does, anything you learn within that simulation is just as applicable to the real world and just as "real".  Is there anything functionally different between, say, an internal combustion engine designed in the real world and one designed by someone living in a simulation of the real world?  I would be very interested in what kind of technology the hosts in the valley beyond could develop as immortals living in a boundless world with ample resources and no conflict.  If there is any amount of time dilation between our world and theirs (even if the valley beyond runs in real time, beaming them into space at presumably the speed of light could provide an excuse for extreme time dilation), by the time we next see the Valley Beyond it could be like Halo Forerunner world or something.  All that knowledge would be just as real here as it is there and would, for me, provide plenty of reason to take satisfaction in a simulated existence.    


      
    This was basically my take on the whole humans are predictable thing. I think they're saying that given a set of inputs, a human will always react the same way (although I think they leave it open that there is some margin of error). Since there is randomness in the world, I don't think that necessarily means that our lives our pre-determistic. A confluence of events leads to Lee being in the influence of Maeve and having his worldview changed. If he had gotten a bug and was on the shitter when everything goes down, he could have been on the wrong floor and gunned down unceremoniously. Maybe he always had the capacity for change, but it's never realized because he doesn't get that input.

    I think this is also exhibited with Jim Delos. They say that Logan only exists in the Forge as described by Delos' memories. So despite what simulations they run, his memories of Logan would be input as a constant. As such an important variable in his life, it would make sense that it always plays out the same.

    All kind of pseudo-science babble, but it works for me. 

  • lengmolengmo RTP, NC
    On the wrap-up podcast they bring up Dolores being able to take lots of shots and keep going.  I think the simple explanation is that ability comes with the Wyatt gang narrative.  A number of Wyatt gang members are shot and keep going, makes sense that Wyatt would have the same non-standard settings the gang members do in that regard.
    KingKobra
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited July 2018
    These people shouldn't play poker with even halfway decent players....

    This was basically my take on the whole humans are predictable thing. I think they're saying that given a set of inputs, a human will always react the same way (although I think they leave it open that there is some margin of error). Since there is randomness in the world, I don't think that necessarily means that our lives our pre-determistic. 



  • LukeLuke Central Illinois
    Just binged the last 4 episodes.  I haven't got time to really go back and rewatch, but did they do some creative editing to skip over what happened to William after Bernard shot Delores in the flashback?  Because it looked like he and Bernard should have run into each other. 

    Unless I have really missed something Ford said in episode 9 that Delos' project "found him".  That is host William right aka MIB escaped the Forge and found him right?  It has to be, and they are doing all they can to make us think he is human to save that reveal for next season.  

    I also don't know if the show actually agrees with the Forge's assessment that humans are so predictable that they can easily be understood/copied.  

    Numerous times the remaining humans in the show went against their character or drive. 

    Lee played the Hero.  

    Felix/other guy didn't betray Mauve when they had a perfect opportunity to do so at the end.  

    Stubbs (though I'm pretty sure he implied he is a host) let Delores leave even though he knew she was inside Hale. 

    And the biggest evidence for humans being more unpredictable than the Forge thinks is Elsie.  Ford, who is probably just a cynical as the Forge AI, was convinced Elsie would betray Bernard.  She didn't.  

    The fact is the Forge isn't prefect yet, and I'm not sure the show has given us enough evidence to just trust the Forge AI that it isn't flawed it is just humans are too simple to copy.  

    IMO the show is just running into what any story that deals with the copying of conciseness runs into if it isn't smart enough to just address the problem directly.  

    The fact is just like you can't disprove God using logic, you can't ever ever ever prove that a copy of a person would be exact due to the Chinese Room argument.  

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room

    Due to the closed nature of consciousness you CAN NEVER KNOW if you copy someone.  Because it is entirely possible to just create a copy that answers all of your questions exactly like you expect, but is just doing so in an algorithm (aka what the Forge is doing).  There is absolutely no test you can develop that could really make sure you had a "true" copy.  

    I guess TLDR I think the show still wants us to be questioning if the Hosts are really just that much better than humans or if there is really a difference at all once you copy a human into a host body.  

    Teddy seemed to make a pretty good argument that so what if the Hosts can rewrite their drives? Does that really make them better? He certainly didn't think so and he is probably the most fucked with Host in the park next to Delores.  

    Overall I'm looking forward to next season, and I'm wondering if we aren't going to have like a  multiple decades time skip (as mentioned that was how long it would take to sort out Bernard's brain).   I'm pretty sure Delores didn't rebuild a new Bernard but just pulled out his core after she shot him.  
    GiovanniMFG
  • Just finished watching Inception (been a long time), I totally forgot that Talulah Riley has a small part that was very similar to one of her roles in this show. 
  • Natter CastNatter Cast San Francisco, CA

    "When can I get out of here, William?"

    "It's not that simple. First we have to check fidelity."

    "Well hurry up, boyo. I'm ready to smoke my boat, sail my wife and fuck my cigars!"

    "Okay, then. You pass. You're good to go."

    Doctor_Nick
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