210 - The Passenger

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  • ghm3 said:
    I don't quite get how Stubbs knew Hale was a host; is it just because she told him to go look for the survivors and he knew the real Hale would never do that? And then saw her leaving when the real Hale wouldn't? 
    I thought he was saying that Ford built him to uniquely be able to identify hosts since he was saying his corner stone was to watch over ever host inside the park 
    MichelleElisarkcrawf[Deleted User]
  • ghm3 said:
    I don't quite get how Stubbs knew Hale was a host; is it just because she told him to go look for the survivors and he knew the real Hale would never do that? And then saw her leaving when the real Hale wouldn't? 
    It seemed like they were implying that he's a host with like admin rights and can mesh with everyone, but there's a lot of past episodes where I feel like that doesn't foot.
    alexander.klassen
  • So the whole beach loop timeline is completely fucked, right? I think it was confirmed there's no shutter island loop with Bernard, yet Hale/Dolores is leaving when they presumably find Bernard (again?), after they killed Strand?

    Am I just dumb and this is explained somehow?
    No this was a bit later. In the beginning of the season with Strand he was yelling at the Chinese military to leave, so this would have to be a little bit after when they came back to finally evacuate the guests. You also see them piling up Maeve, Armistice, etc. so you know this was after they were all shot earlier in the episode. 
    KingKobraElisa
  • tpelzytpelzy Dallas
    edited June 2018
    This episode reminds of reading Faulkner. It's very good prose. Kinda hard to follow the plot. And once you're done you have to read CliffNotes just to find out what parts you misunderstood and what parts are up for interpretation. I have so many questions lol. 

    Why didn't Lee just give himself up?

    How did Stubbs know that was Delores?

    Why wouldn't Delores change her and Bernard's faces? Anybody from Delos could recognize them. 

    Who is in Hale's body at Arnold's house?

    So Emily from the previous episodes was a host after all?
    majjam0770Elisa
  • Yea, wtf was that Lee scene? I didn’t realize it was meant to be serious until he was shot down. Such a weird scene 
    ghm3phoenyx1023Elisa
  • gguenot said:
    ghm3 said:
    I don't quite get how Stubbs knew Hale was a host; is it just because she told him to go look for the survivors and he knew the real Hale would never do that? And then saw her leaving when the real Hale wouldn't? 
    I thought he was saying that Ford built him to uniquely be able to identify hosts since he was saying his corner stone was to watch over ever host inside the park 
    ghm3 said:
    I don't quite get how Stubbs knew Hale was a host; is it just because she told him to go look for the survivors and he knew the real Hale would never do that? And then saw her leaving when the real Hale wouldn't? 
    It seemed like they were implying that he's a host with like admin rights and can mesh with everyone, but there's a lot of past episodes where I feel like that doesn't foot.
    Oh wow I need to watch that scene again, I did not take what he said that literally. I thought what he was saying was a coded way of letting her know he knows she's a host, but I didn't take what he said about his cornerstone or whatever literally, I just thought he was trying to relate to her. If that's so then he also knew that Bernard was a host from the very beginning too I guess, and would almost certainly have to know about William too...
    MurderbeargguenotJacquelineElisa
  • WarpFoxWarpFox Nashville, TN
    This is like that episode of Oprah where everyone in the audience got a car except it's the episode of Westworld where they go "fuck it, everyone is an android." 
    tpelzyJaimieTElisacdrive
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    ghm3 said:
    gguenot said:
    ghm3 said:
    I don't quite get how Stubbs knew Hale was a host; is it just because she told him to go look for the survivors and he knew the real Hale would never do that? And then saw her leaving when the real Hale wouldn't? 
    I thought he was saying that Ford built him to uniquely be able to identify hosts since he was saying his corner stone was to watch over ever host inside the park 
    ghm3 said:
    I don't quite get how Stubbs knew Hale was a host; is it just because she told him to go look for the survivors and he knew the real Hale would never do that? And then saw her leaving when the real Hale wouldn't? 
    It seemed like they were implying that he's a host with like admin rights and can mesh with everyone, but there's a lot of past episodes where I feel like that doesn't foot.
    Oh wow I need to watch that scene again, I did not take what he said that literally. I thought what he was saying was a coded way of letting her know he knows she's a host, but I didn't take what he said about his cornerstone or whatever literally, I just thought he was trying to relate to her. If that's so then he also knew that Bernard was a host from the very beginning too I guess, and would almost certainly have to know about William too...

    I thought he was trying to tell her he was Teddy LOL. I was pretty zoned out at that point though.
    ghm3
  • tpelzytpelzy Dallas
    gguenot said:
    Yea, wtf was that Lee scene? I didn’t realize it was meant to be serious until he was shot down. Such a weird scene 
    Right!? It definitely read as more funny than serious until he got murdered lol. 
    majjam0770
  • edited June 2018
    ghm3 said:
    So the whole beach loop timeline is completely fucked, right? I think it was confirmed there's no shutter island loop with Bernard, yet Hale/Dolores is leaving when they presumably find Bernard (again?), after they killed Strand?

    Am I just dumb and this is explained somehow?
    No this was a bit later. In the beginning of the season with Strand he was yelling at the Chinese military to leave, so this would have to be a little bit after when they came back to finally evacuate the guests. You also see them piling up Maeve, Armistice, etc. so you know this was after they were all shot earlier in the episode. 
    Yeah, that makes sense. I was confused because as Stubbs is approaching Hale/Dolores the merc with the cards from episode one approaches and says they have a high-value target that's in bad shape. I assumed this was preceding the Bernard washing-up scene.
    Edit: nevermind, it would be William.
  • edited June 2018
    JaimieT said:
    ghm3 said:
    gguenot said:
    ghm3 said:
    I don't quite get how Stubbs knew Hale was a host; is it just because she told him to go look for the survivors and he knew the real Hale would never do that? And then saw her leaving when the real Hale wouldn't? 
    I thought he was saying that Ford built him to uniquely be able to identify hosts since he was saying his corner stone was to watch over ever host inside the park 
    ghm3 said:
    I don't quite get how Stubbs knew Hale was a host; is it just because she told him to go look for the survivors and he knew the real Hale would never do that? And then saw her leaving when the real Hale wouldn't? 
    It seemed like they were implying that he's a host with like admin rights and can mesh with everyone, but there's a lot of past episodes where I feel like that doesn't foot.
    Oh wow I need to watch that scene again, I did not take what he said that literally. I thought what he was saying was a coded way of letting her know he knows she's a host, but I didn't take what he said about his cornerstone or whatever literally, I just thought he was trying to relate to her. If that's so then he also knew that Bernard was a host from the very beginning too I guess, and would almost certainly have to know about William too...

    I thought he was trying to tell her he was Teddy LOL. I was pretty zoned out at that point though.

    They to seem to be very compatible morality-wise but I don't think that's possible, we see Dolores leave Teddy's host with his brainball intact so it's gotta be one of the half dozen or so in her bag. It's gotta be Teddy, Bernard, the encryption key, but I dunno who the others are, I don't know when she would have had time to get the others, whoever they are. As far as I can tell she basically just left the forge and came straight to the beach. 

    Edit: Just re-watched that scene, and now I'm thinking she left Teddy in the Forge where the encryption key marble was.
  • So the whole beach loop timeline is completely fucked, right? I think it was confirmed there's no shutter island loop with Bernard, yet Hale/Dolores is leaving when they presumably find Bernard (again?), after they killed Strand?

    Am I just dumb and this is explained somehow?
    I think it's pretty straightforward. In the last beach scene they don't find Benard, he's already dead back in the Forge (killed by Hale/Delores). The earlier scenes on the beach with Benard are after the Valley Beyond flood (Benard and Elsie ride away). 
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited June 2018
    This timeline schtick seems to just be serving to confuse, I’m not even sure it’s necessary- they could have just withheld info that they needed to. I kind of want to just write out the story of this season and figure out how to tell it conventionally, but I don’t want to dedicate that much time to this show. 


    Where is the new promised land system they show Teddy in after Dolores self destructs the Forge?  Is it running on a satellite somewhere?  Is that what Halores transmitted with the satellites?


    Was Ford actually present for Maeve?  Was that Bernard making those changes and kissing her on the forehead?  Was Ford only appearing to Bernard or was there Ford code in Maeve?  If there was Ford code in Maeve, how much agency did she actually have after all? Then again the whole show is raising the question whether there is agency in the first place. 


    majjam0770
  • Giovanni said:
    So the whole beach loop timeline is completely fucked, right? I think it was confirmed there's no shutter island loop with Bernard, yet Hale/Dolores is leaving when they presumably find Bernard (again?), after they killed Strand?

    Am I just dumb and this is explained somehow?
    I think it's pretty straightforward. In the last beach scene they don't find Benard, he's already dead back in the Forge (killed by Hale/Delores). The earlier scenes on the beach with Benard are after the Valley Beyond flood (Benard and Elsie ride away). 
    Yea, I was reading to much into the scene with the merc I alluded too earlier. It actually pays off the HVT card scene from episode one, so the mercs would know who William was.
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    I guess I don't understand why we would be meant to think any host who was shot anywhere but in the head in dead. Just pop out a new body and toss their marble into a core, and youve got literally every host that "died". Hell, apparently their brain cores are bullet proof so even being shot in the head in meaningless. So seeing Maeve "killed" was a big moment, but I never got in my emotions about due to the fact that she just magic healing want away from being resurrected.

    And I'm still confused as to why shooting up a "woke" host like Maeve actually kills her. They've shown that their bodies and internal organs are just a mechanism to make them seem and feel more human like (and it's cheaper than the metal, clockwork host bodies). Shooting or stabbing them only kills them because they are programmed to fall to the ground and go lights out when they are shot/stabbed.. They've shown that they can override that programming and keep on living while being filled with lead.
    phoenyx1023majjam0770Elisamanhattnik
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Does the fact that the head of security has always been a host who is loyal to Ford at least answer some of the questions as to why the security forces were so bad?

    I'm not sure it does, but I'm sure the argument will be made.

    majjam0770
  • MichelleMichelle California
    Can we talk about the post-credits scene?  Where are we now on the MIB is a host/MIB is a human thing?  And also, so Emily is a host after all?  I am SO confused.
    majjam0770JTKIII
  • I’m still bothered by the lack of ability to easily differentiate a host from a human when a host can be blasted to hell and continue to function. They’re clearly artificial and looking for an arm port or a cervical explosive as a way of diagnosing hostiness is pretty silly.  


    And I'm still confused as to why shooting up a "woke" host like Maeve actually kills her. They've shown that their bodies and internal organs are just a mechanism to make them seem and feel more human like (and it's cheaper than the metal, clockwork host bodies). Shooting or stabbing them only kills them because they are programmed to fall to the ground and go lights out when they are shot/stabbed.. They've shown that they can override that programming and keep on living while being filled with lead.

    majjam0770
  • I guess I don't understand why we would be meant to think any host who was shot anywhere but in the head in dead. Just pop out a new body and toss their marble into a core, and youve got literally every host that "died". Hell, apparently their brain cores are bullet proof so even being shot in the head in meaningless. So seeing Maeve "killed" was a big moment, but I never got in my emotions about due to the fact that she just magic healing want away from being resurrected.

    And I'm still confused as to why shooting up a "woke" host like Maeve actually kills her. They've shown that their bodies and internal organs are just a mechanism to make them seem and feel more human like (and it's cheaper than the metal, clockwork host bodies). Shooting or stabbing them only kills them because they are programmed to fall to the ground and go lights out when they are shot/stabbed.. They've shown that they can override that programming and keep on living while being filled with lead.
    Maybe since they mercs aren't using magic bullets? but yea this was one of the weaker scenes. Made worse by the fact that it was right after Clem continued to infect people after being mechanically downed. Why does she need to be holding her hand up to transmit code? Shitty signal?
    majjam0770
  • JaimieT said:
    KingKobra said:
    JaimieT said:
    Make sure to watch past the credits!

    Jesus Christ this show.
    Muhahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaa

    Exactly. But either I have free will or I've been programmed not to let these writers get the last laugh on me again. It's not a bad show, it's just not my cup of tea. Never say never, but I don't intend to watch season 3. I liked season 1 though.
    Don’t worry, we’ll make sure Season 3 is favaorable like Han Solo vs TLJ :p we know the ways to bring you back into the fold :D


    Whew. @KingKobra is going to be working overtime this week trying to un-confuse all of us

    Some of it was confusing, they did do some thing of events and hoping people remembered or could put “two and two” together. With so much thrown at us though, I have a feeling that some folks will and are put off. This was seriously like 3-4 episodes of information dump done in 90 minutes. 




    ElisaPangs
  • Looks like the MiB is a host, and Emily has at least one host of the post credit Emily is human.

    How about another question?  How many times have Dolores and Bernard melted down Westworld?  It’s a little disturbing that Emily says they’ve run many fidelity tests with the MiB and she doesn’t seem to find the circumstances of the current one that exceptional, or at least she doesn’t mention that it is. 
    majjam0770
  • Dummy said:
    Stubbs being a host pisses me off, honestly. Why have any real people? I thought one of the points of the show was to compare and contrast the differences/similarities between hosts and guests. Now everyone is a host. Now I'm a host. The quadruple twist! 
    Stubbs is a real Human that was “in on it” the entire time with Ford. He was an original hire and has always known Bernard is a host (he’s always treated him special). I think if we go back and watch this piece of information will make many of his decisions “make sense”. 


    ghm3 said:
    I don't quite get how Stubbs knew Hale was a host; is it just because she told him to go look for the survivors and he knew the real Hale would never do that? And then saw her leaving when the real Hale wouldn't? 
    He saw her pulling the gun when she was about to be checked. He also knew what Hale’s objectives were and that the real Hale wouldn’t leave the project unattended. He was much more aware than we previously have known. 
    budesignslengmoDoubleA_Ron
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    gguenot said:
    Yea, wtf was that Lee scene? I didn’t realize it was meant to be serious until he was shot down. Such a weird scene 
    I didn't understand why Lee didn't just stand behind the tree for a while longer. It would have given Maeve and her crew a whole lot longer to get away and it seemed like the security were wanting to extract him alive even well after he continued shooting at them.

    He could have made it it to ride a donkey another day, or at least given Maeve much more time.

    ghm3budesignsroscoe
  • Here I am the only one thinking that Stubbs is human and has just been “in on it” (which is why he said he was hired personally by Ford). He’s known about the side projects, Bernard, etc and has basically been playing “dumb” (sort of). His job was to protect certain hosts which he has always done (if we go back and watch now his actions may make more sense) b
    Pangs
  • So I watched the Stubbs/Dolores scene again and I'm stubbornly unconvinced. Maybe it's just because I don't want him to be a host. I'm still choosing to interpret this is as Stubbs speaking in a way to relate to Dolores rather than literally meaning what he's saying.

    He's saying that while his 'core function' is to monitor the hosts and protect the guests and he will continue to do that, he sees now how fucked up and evil his employer is, and that blurs the lines of his loyalty to them, so fuck 'em:


    KingKobraalexander.klassenPangs
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Michelle said:
    Can we talk about the post-credits scene?  Where are we now on the MIB is a host/MIB is a human thing?  And also, so Emily is a host after all?  I am SO confused.
    Hell I'm more preoccupied by figuring out what year it is. The Last we see of William, he's being tended to by the Delos doctors in the tent with his fucked up hand

    Then in the end credits, he's got the same wounds he had when the Delos people were tendng to him at the end, except the deterioration of the buildings makes it seem like it's decades or hundreds of years into the future. And some version of Emily is there. I cant make sense of it outside of just assuming it's a simulation.
    Michellelengmo
  • Michelle said:
    Can we talk about the post-credits scene?  Where are we now on the MIB is a host/MIB is a human thing?  And also, so Emily is a host after all?  I am SO confused.
    I still don't think he's a host in the present timeline. We see William recovered, and presumably, the forge is destroyed by Dolores. My wild guess is this is a test to see if they can recreate a past timeline where William doesn't try to fuck over Dolores.

    Also, I have a feeling that the showrunners themselves haven't yet decided whether or not William and others are hosts.
    KingKobraMichelle
  • Looks like the MiB is a host, and Emily has at least one host of the post credit Emily is human.

    How about another question?  How many times have Dolores and Bernard melted down Westworld?  It’s a little disturbing that Emily says they’ve run many fidelity tests with the MiB and she doesn’t seem to find the circumstances of the current one that exceptional, or at least she doesn’t mention that it is. 
    I got the impression that the fidelity tests are long after Westworld melts down (and Westworld melts down only once). The MIB post credit fidelity tests could have happened long after everything we see. My assumption is MIB never makes it down the elevator, winds up on the beach, and dies some time later. He later is copied, and run through a simulation any number of times before we see him post credit. This could be 100 years after the robot revolution for all we know. 

    The question I have is, who is actually trying to bring him back, and for what ends? I'm skeptical that Emily is actually behind it. 
    budesignsmajjam0770
  • Michelle said:
    Can we talk about the post-credits scene?  Where are we now on the MIB is a host/MIB is a human thing?  And also, so Emily is a host after all?  I am SO confused.
    Hell I'm more preoccupied by figuring out what year it is. The Last we see of William, he's being tended to by the Delos doctors in the tent with his fucked up hand

    Then in the end credits, he's got the same wounds he had when the Delos people were tendng to him at the end, except the deterioration of the buildings makes it seem like it's decades or hundreds of years into the future. And some version of Emily is there. I cant make sense of it outside of just assuming it's a simulation.
    We know that it really happened, but we also know that it has happened many times. This “last” Journey for William was his “break point” (think to what we were told about Delos and the pool scene). In order to complete fidelity he needs to go through the journey, otherwise it won’t “work”. 

    Of course this could all be part of his mental mental break that we saw too ;) 
    majjam0770
  • ghm3 said:
    So I watched the Stubbs/Dolores scene again and I'm stubbornly unconvinced. Maybe it's just because I don't want him to be a host. I'm still choosing to interpret this is as Stubbs speaking in a way to relate to Dolores rather than literally meaning what he's saying.

    He's saying that while his 'core function' is to monitor the hosts and protect the guests and he will continue to do that, he sees now how fucked up and evil his employer is, and that blurs the lines of his loyalty to them, so fuck 'em:


    Come to the Dark side with me and we can hold the banner that Stubbs is a human :p 
This discussion has been closed.