210 - The Passenger

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  • I stopped watching this show midway through the season and it looks like I made the right call. Seems like they’re more interested in piliing on more questions and confusing the audience than working on character development and making the show an enjoyable experience.
    JaimieTElisabrowniefiveken hale
  • The more I think about it, the more I feel the show collapses under its own weight.  Any host or human can be brought back, cheapening the stakes.  Any host or human can be in a sim, cheapening the environment in which the story is taking place.

    Yes, they want you to question the reality of the show the same way the hosts need to question the nature of their own reality, but JFC I'm glad the season is done and instead of having bated breath, I'm okay with this show staying off my brain until 2020, at which I will definitely wait and binge the entire season instead of going week-to-fatiguing-week.

    Yeesh.
    ElisabrowniefiveDoctor_Nick
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    JTKIII said:
    I stopped watching this show midway through the season and it looks like I made the right call. Seems like they’re more interested in piliing on more questions and confusing the audience than working on character development and making the show an enjoyable experience.

    There was one incredible episode, but nothing is stopping you from watching it now, and it makes a nice finale I think, not that it ties up any loose ends, but neither did the actual finale. The quality is rewarding, freeing. But I could have watched that alone, so I'm not glad I powered through. Better late than never I guess.
  • ghm3 said:
    I don't quite get how Stubbs knew Hale was a host; is it just because she told him to go look for the survivors and he knew the real Hale would never do that? And then saw her leaving when the real Hale wouldn't? 
    Wasn't there some dialogue about him being security and being trained to watch the hosts' behavior? Or did I ghost write that into my memory to make it make sense?
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    JTKIII said:
    Seems like they’re more interested in piliing on more questions and confusing the audience than working on character development and making the show an enjoyable experience.


    I don't really get the argument they didn't tie up any loose ends. They tied up plenty and and left some nice ones dangling for season 3.

    Also know that I am not saying this season was perfect by any means. They definitely made the ride as confusing as possible (at times unnecessarily so) but I think by the end, it was a satisfying journey.
    KingKobraPangsMoonMan13
  • For those confused about The Man in Black's gun in this episode I read an article about it during the 1st season that if I recall correctly explains what happened in this episode. His gun is a LeMat 1861 revolver. It has a single shot shotgun barrel underneath the gun barrel and the gun part has a customized cartridge-firing model rather than being a percussion black-powder weapon that the original is. The wider shotgun barrel is what Delores jammed the flattened slug into so it would backfire on him. You see him waste all his shots and then tries to fire the shotgun after the other shots fail to kill her.
    MurderbearMFGMarcirkcrawfKingKobraalexander.klassenGiovanni
  • CapeGabe said:
    For those confused about The Man in Black's gun...You see him waste all his shots and then tries to fire the shotgun after the other shots fail to kill her.
    The only confusing thing about it is William is a 30 year crack-shot merc host assassin despite injury...until this scene.
    MoonMan13
  • I'm still very much on board with the show, but this finale did feel like a bit of a mess. I might feel different after watching again and listening to some podcasts about it. Overall, I liked the season though. I am really glad I held back on the theory section of the podcast (and thanks for separating that, Jim and A. Ron!). I did listen to some of the early ones after several reveals later in the season, then just listened to the last bunch of them after the finale. I'm content to just go along for the ride and not try to guess too much ahead. 

    One thing that was mentioned on the Instant Talk about the "virginal" hosts and why they were that way... Wouldn't those likely be the ones who crossed over? That was my impression--that they took with them everything that made up their "self" (cognition/memories/etc.) and left only the shell of their bodies behind, meaning they would probably read as a blank slate. They did say it was only a percentage of the bodies that were like that, and we know that only a percentage of hosts made it through the door. That's what I got out of it on first watch anyway. 
    JaimieTsuperalamar

  • There is a huge difference between fans going over minute details of a show they love in various medias to NEEDING podcast and articles to figure out what the hell happened. It is infuriating (and also mildly relieving) to find out you are not in fact a complete moron because 90% of viewers are not sure what they just watched either. I should not have to search out people "in the know" to find out what is really going on in a TV show.

    I've been writing for a while here that this show was riding a thin razor line between being the show I hoped it would be and being a disaster. I thought even with all the missteps that they could pull it out with a great season finale. They didn't. What they have done now is spent a lot of viewer's goodwill capital and need to get it back on track very quickly in season 3. I am hoping that ARon and Jim are correct and this is the new TV norm Season 2 pivot but really am leaning towards this heading into Lost territory. The strange part is that Lost had the problem of not having a real road map where they were going but the show runners say Westworld has a 5 year arc already in place. Really? You planed Season 2 to go like this? 

    Maybe a 2nd watching will change my mind but right now I'm very frustrated and disappointed with Westworld.
    chriskghm3JaimieTrkcrawfElisaalexander.klassenJTKIIIken hale
  • WarpFoxWarpFox Nashville, TN
    casanova said:
    The more I think about it, the more I feel the show collapses under its own weight.  Any host or human can be brought back, cheapening the stakes.  Any host or human can be in a sim, cheapening the environment in which the story is taking place.

    Yes, they want you to question the reality of the show the same way the hosts need to question the nature of their own reality, but JFC I'm glad the season is done and instead of having bated breath, I'm okay with this show staying off my brain until 2020, at which I will definitely wait and binge the entire season instead of going week-to-fatiguing-week.

    Yeesh.
    I definitely feel relieved that this season is over as I'm also looking forward to a break in the mental taxation. I'm hoping that the show being off for a while will let me want to come back for season 3, because it's hard to not be watching a show that Jim and A.Ron covering.
    Elisa
  • budesigns said:
    I'm just looking forward to S3, which I assume will be a Kimmy Schmidt-like comedy about life in the big city for Dolores, Charlores, and ... Bernlores? (plus whoever else was in Charlores's purse earlier). Basically, the whole cast are different identities/agents for Dolores to inhabit. Hilarity ensues. 
    The Real World: Delos
    budesigns
  • davemcbdavemcb Melbourne
    Until the post credits i was thinking MIB was a host or Mustafa from Austin Powers
    Murderbear
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    edited June 2018
    Re: Lost - I was never this confused by Lost and I enjoyed a larger percentage of the characters. There's no Hurley on this show, or even a Sawyer and it seems like there should be. There is a lot of depressing stuff about this world, but someone should be enjoying the hell out of this. Maeve is about as close as we get to that (mostly last season), and maybe Hector and Armistice. Not coincidental that those are my favorites. I'm not saying all or even most of it has to be fun, but a Luke needs a Han Solo, you know? Logan was maybe an attempt at that, but it's hard to enjoy someone who's really just a prick. 

    Don't relish the thought of following William through any journey going forward, and I think that post credits scene hints strongly at more timeline hijinks next season with him at the center. Though if that's true, at least it clusters the things I don't like about this show in one story. If I can get Bernard and Dolores back on a fairly straightforward (and 
    interesting) story next year, that'll be a shot in the arm. Not finding that whole arch-nemesis setup very promising though. It also felt to me like Bernard had moved toward Dolores way of thinking by the end, so I'm not sure why he'd be defending humanity. They can tell me that's what he wants, but it doesn't feel like it's supported.

    (Did anyone else think for a minute that Bernard was going to build his son with Ford's machine?)

    Occurs to me that if you take Akecheta's episode and Akane No Mai out of this season, it suffers a lot. For me that's the show at it's most fun/rewarding. 
    rkcrawfElisabrowniefiveken hale
  • I prob need to watch a full of the earlier episodes to see if there is any hint of Dolores in Hale. Otherwise, I feel like the writers are just fucking with us. 

    Thank you @CapeGabe for explaining the bullet thing. 
    I don't get why Dolores can get shot and keep moving, but Clem and Maeve get shot and their "dead." 
    Why kill Elsie (narratively)? Just seemed like an attempt to add real weight to the end.
    WTF is going on with Stubbs?
    WTF was with the post credits scene? I get that its in the future, but does that have reverse implications for how we should interpret the previous Emily / MIB dynamic?
    What's to stop Dolores and Bernard from just creating a robot army in the real world?
    JaimieTElisa
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    "I guess you could call it...my core drive"


    JaimieTgguenotMurderbearalexander.klassenbrowniefiveDoctor_NickroscoedarwinfeeshyGredalBee
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    CapeGabe said:

    The strange part is that Lost had the problem of not having a real road map where they were going but the show runners say Westworld has a 5 year arc already in place. Really? You planed Season 2 to go like this? 


    The Lost showrunners insisted they knew the ending, unless all my friends were lying to me. I kept holding off on watching the show despite tons of recommendations, saying, "I want to make sure it ends well." And that's what I was told, again and again. So yes, this seems like a Lost situation to me.
    rkcrawf
  • chrisk said:
    "I guess you could call it...my core drive"
    I feel like when he made this same joke in season one to Elsie, it was actually a joke and he was human, but then the showrunners changed their minds and rewrote him.
    JaimieT
  • edited June 2018
    JaimieT said:
    CapeGabe said:

    The strange part is that Lost had the problem of not having a real road map where they were going but the show runners say Westworld has a 5 year arc already in place. Really? You planed Season 2 to go like this? 


    The Lost showrunners insisted they knew the ending, unless all my friends were lying to me. I kept holding off on watching the show despite tons of recommendations, saying, "I want to make sure it ends well." And that's what I was told, again and again. So yes, this seems like a Lost situation to me.
    I feel like these folks know where they're going, but they seem to have a problem editing themselves. Half the stuff in this episode needed to be teased earlier in the season (or if it was, I'm guessing a lot of people missed it). I still don't get why Giancarlo Esposito was in an episode, or why they engaged in a Confederados battle that looked like an old A-Team episode.

    So much filler and unnecessary timeshifting. Shit, I guess it is like Lost (disclaimer: Lost is one of my favorite shows despite its flaws). 
    MFGElisa
  • After reading the q&a from Nolan and Joy, I don’t dislike it as much, but it sucks that I needed them to explain things to me for me to understand. I guess that’s on me though lol
  • So why did Ford task MiB with finding the door?
      
    ...Or am I remembering incorrectly, and William took that upon himself like with the maze?
  • Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only remaining named humans in the show are Sly and Felix and probably William?

    They're going to need to hire some heavyweights (read: not Strand, Coughlin, etc.) to make for a dynamic conflict in the next season. Team robot is stacked.
  • So why did Ford task MiB with finding the door?
      
    ...Or am I remembering incorrectly, and William took that upon himself like with the maze?
    William took the last mission upon himself. While Ford did set up the “game” for him, i think it needed to be of his own accord to “work”. Ford is always thinking 10 steps ahead and I think we saw the fruition with the after credits scene. All of what we saw was real, those events needed to occur for William (MIB) to expose and accept his “real self”. We now have a sort of “end point” for his character. We know he dies, but we don’t know how. We also know that the events in the park are his moment like the pool scene was for Delos. 


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only remaining named humans in the show are Sly and Felix and probably William?

    They're going to need to hire some heavyweights (read: not Strand, Coughlin, etc.) to make for a dynamic conflict in the next season. Team robot is stacked.
    You’d be correct, I’m guessing we will get more next season and seasons beyond. Team Robot will always seem stacked however as those are the ones we have the most history with. 
    DoubleA_Ron
  • MFGMFG
    edited June 2018
    It is not a good sign that the emotions expressed most often on this thread are confusion and relief (that it's over / that it wasn't that bad). Despite my own expectations I actually enjoyed the finale a lot more than a lot of the rest of the season because it did in fact answer some of the most pressing questions for a casual viewer like me, albeit it all being a bit too little too late. As Sepinwall points out in his review, what remains of Season 2 after scrutiny is three pretty good episodes, among which the Jim-Delos-is-a-robot-stuck-in-a-loop one was by far my favorite.

    Being as expensive as it is, I wonder if Nolan and Joy will even get a chance to tell their show's whole "five season arc". At the moment the show's ratings are on par with Boardwalk Empire's burnout season, and I don't see the show getting a lot of special late-in-the-game praise and growing viewer numbers like GoT, Breaking Bad or The Expanse did. I don't mean to hate, there's a lot of good stuff in WW in its best moments. I guess I'm just really disappointed because I had had such high hopes for Westworld going in two years ago, what with it being a high budget, strong cast, 21st century sci fi show dealing with super interesting themes. Better luck next season, I guess. I probably won't be around for it but maybe, if I hear very good things. After all, Mr Robot and The Wire recovered from downer Season 2s as well.

    Oh, and speaking of The Expanse: everybody should be watching The Expanse :)


    Elisaghm3rkcrawfmajjam0770
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    MFG said:
    As Sepinwall points out in his review, what remains of Season 2 after scrutiny is three pretty good episodes, among which the Jim-Delos-is-a-robot-stuck-in-a-loop one was by far my favorite.


    Mine too! The Akecheta episode was very good, but the Delos-loop is a sci-fi gem. I will definitely rewatch it at some point.
    MFG
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    MFG said:

    Oh, and speaking of The Expanse: everybody should be watching The Expanse :)


    And speaking of The Expanse, while reading Alan Sepinwall's review of Westworld season 2, I realized something The Expanse did well, somewhere it might have faltered but didn't. The Expanse used its season 1 slow-burn mystery as a jumping off point to tell the larger story. Westworld season 2 just doubled down on what season 1 did... mysteries, puzzles, uncertainties. In The Expanse season 2+, we're only as uncertain as the characters are.

    God, ignoring the fact that The Expanse has a book "outline" to follow, I can see how easy it might have been for The Expanse season 2 to be like... next mystery! What is everyone discovering about Eros station? What is Avasarala up to talking to Cotyar so much? Did someone kill the Martian guy or did he just have a heart attack? Is Naomi OPA IS NAOMI OPA?!

    Haha, on the latter, I was going to comment this season how refreshing it was that they didn't belabor that question after initially asking it in early season 1.
    MFG
  • Did I miss it or has no one in this forum mentioned the biggest moment to happen in the whole series thus far?

    Delos Security WON A BATTLE!!!!!!!!!!
    JaimieTMurderbearKingKobrarkcrawfElisaawookiee
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    JaimieT said:
    MFG said:
    As Sepinwall points out in his review, what remains of Season 2 after scrutiny is three pretty good episodes, among which the Jim-Delos-is-a-robot-stuck-in-a-loop one was by far my favorite.


    Mine too! The Akecheta episode was very good, but the Delos-loop is a sci-fi gem. I will definitely rewatch it at some point.
    I forgot the Delos episode - so that's 3 good to great episodes. I think that's also a good example of how this show can engage on an intellectual level without being a mental strain. I'm given enough interesting information that I can ponder it without having to immediately consider how that information fits into the larger story. 
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Jim and A.Ron were discussing if the final scene with Dolores, Halores, and Bernard was taking place in a simulation. I took that scene to mean that Halores GTFO of Westworld (which we saw) and went to the only safe place she knew which was Arnold's weird old home he built. We see Bernard sitting beside a recently used host 3D printer with blood and tools laying around, so my assumption was that Halores printed out new Dolores and Bernard bodies and stuck copies of the Dolores and Bernard consciousnesses in them. Which was her gift to Bernard. 

    Was there really a question of that not happening in the real world, beyond the basic questioning of if anything we see is really "real"?
  • Jim and A.Ron were discussing if the final scene with Dolores, Halores, and Bernard was taking place in a simulation. I took that scene to mean that Halores GTFO of Westworld (which we saw) and went to the only safe place she knew which was Arnold's weird old home he built. We see Bernard sitting beside a recently used host 3D printer with blood and tools laying around, so my assumption was that Halores printed out new Dolores and Bernard bodies and stuck copies of the Dolores and Bernard consciousnesses in them. Which was her gift to Bernard. 

    Was there really a question of that not happening in the real world, beyond the basic questioning of if anything we see is really "real"?
    I don’t think there was any question to that being real (IMO). As always there are “crazy” theories and guessing going on during the instant talk. For the full cast i would  guess they will seenit as being real (since it was). Halores got out and used the host printer to create Bernard and Dolores. I think Halores is more Wyatt than Dolores and the created Dolores is the “new Dolores” who is neither Dolores (farmers daughter) or Wyatt (the flat voiced angel of death), but someone new. 
  • browniefivebrowniefive Minneapolis, MN
    gguenot said:
    After reading the q&a from Nolan and Joy, I don’t dislike it as much, but it sucks that I needed them to explain things to me for me to understand. I guess that’s on me though lol
    Where is this Q&A? I may have missed it, like I missed the Door.
    majjam0770
This discussion has been closed.