210 - The Passenger

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  • Two (more) questions:
    1. Can someone explain whether there was a time jump after the MIB confronted Delores? 
    His gun blows up and he passes out. She and Bernard go into the "hatch." Delos security comes, and MIB isn't there anymore. They go into the hatch.  Later, we see a flashback of MIB waking up and going into the hatch. If I remember, it's cut in a way to imply that Bernard is going to run into him in the elevator, but that doesn't happen. So where did MIB go, if Delos security didn't get him and he never ran into Bernard. Was he hiding during the flood?? (Apologies if I am mis-remembering...I need to not drink and Westworld)

    2. Emily. I don't even know what the question is, but
    We seem Emily performing a fidelity test on MIB (presumably in the future). But I'm assuming the Emily that MIB shot was real (otherwise what's the point). Is it likely the future-Emily is just a representation of her, and not an actual copy (similar to how Forge-Logan was just an image to which  the subject would respond favorably)? I don't remember if the post credits were letterboxed. I ask because if future-Emily is a physical host, then someone needed to build her, and that raises a "who" question. If it's just the Forge's AI on its own, the who question goes away.
    alexander.klassen
  • Does a single named female character make it out of the series so far not having died at least once? 
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Here's the QA answering questions about the twists in the episode:

    http://ew.com/tv/2018/06/24/westworld-season-2-finale-interview/
    KingKobraMichelle
  • gguenot said:
    After reading the q&a from Nolan and Joy, I don’t dislike it as much, but it sucks that I needed them to explain things to me for me to understand. I guess that’s on me though lol
    Where is this Q&A? I may have missed it, like I missed the Door.
    I posted the Lisa Joy episode on the last page. I know there are a few interviews going around though. 
    rkcrawfbrowniefive
  • Does a single named female character make it out of the series so far not having died at least once? 
    Depends on whether the Emily testing MiBot at the end is real or a construct. Other than that, Stubbs is the only surviving human(?), right?
  • rkcrawf said:
    Two (more) questions:
    1. Can someone explain whether there was a time jump after the MIB confronted Delores? 
    His gun blows up and he passes out. She and Bernard go into the "hatch." Delos security comes, and MIB isn't there anymore. They go into the hatch.  Later, we see a flashback of MIB waking up and going into the hatch. If I remember, it's cut in a way to imply that Bernard is going to run into him in the elevator, but that doesn't happen. So where did MIB go, if Delos security didn't get him and he never ran into Bernard. Was he hiding during the flood?? (Apologies if I am mis-remembering...I need to not drink and Westworld)

    2. Emily. I don't even know what the question is, but
    We seem Emily performing a fidelity test on MIB (presumably in the future). But I'm assuming the Emily that MIB shot was real (otherwise what's the point). Is it likely the future-Emily is just a representation of her, and not an actual copy (similar to how Forge-Logan was just an image to which  the subject would respond favorably)? I don't remember if the post credits were letterboxed. I ask because if future-Emily is a physical host, then someone needed to build her, and that raises a "who" question. If it's just the Forge's AI on its own, the who question goes away.
    1) we saw it happen in real time AND in the “far future”. MIB was picked up/rescued (which is why we saw him in the medical tent). The after credits scene is the one where he is in his fidelity test (which we now know needs to occur during events that actually happened). While it was a flashback for “events” it was technically a very large jump forward to an undetermined point in the future. Connect the Logan walk through where he tells Bernard how they created Delos to that last scene and I think it will make more sense (this is how I see it at least). 

    2) we don’t know the “where or who” of that last post credits scene yet. It was showing a point where the story will go in the future (not necessarily season 3 either). The post credits scene did not have letterbox, but since everything has changed we can’t say that it was not “virtual”. Could it be “real”, yes that both are now hosts and they are using Emily as the control. 
  • Jim and A.Ron were discussing if the final scene with Dolores, Halores, and Bernard was taking place in a simulation. I took that scene to mean that Halores GTFO of Westworld (which we saw) and went to the only safe place she knew which was Arnold's weird old home he built. We see Bernard sitting beside a recently used host 3D printer with blood and tools laying around, so my assumption was that Halores printed out new Dolores and Bernard bodies and stuck copies of the Dolores and Bernard consciousnesses in them. Which was her gift to Bernard. 

    Was there really a question of that not happening in the real world, beyond the basic questioning of if anything we see is really "real"?

    Why do they have to be copies? In that scene with Bernard I don't think there's any question that Dolores is supposed to be back in ERW's sleeve, but she arrived at the house in Hale's, so I think the tools just mean she did a brain marble swap, performed by either another host she printed that we haven't seen yet, or something she had Bernard do when he was fresh off the printer before doing his setup. 

    But that still wouldn't address who the other marbles are. My first watch I missed the 2-3s scene of the marble being left in the Forge scanner, when I saw it re-watching the scene it superficially seems like it's supposed to be Abernathy/the encryption key but the voiceover and visuals seemed to be saying it's Teddy, I dunno. 

    The only thing that seems to make sense about the marbles is that she printed out everyone from the Forge except for Bernard, which I guess would mean the marbles could be any guest scanned, or Delos employee since they told us they're all scanned too. Or host for that matter, because they can't run all those tests in the Forge without the host files. So if Dolores did actually take Teddy along then it makes more sense that she'd print a new copy of him from the Forge rather than the version she ruined. But he would certainly be siding with Bernard, so maybe she'd be planning to just keep him in her purse until she wins and it's all over, and she prints out a celebratory Teddy like popping a champagne bottle. 

    But anyway, so basically the brain marbles could literally be anyone. Yay writing crutch.

    But I think the most interesting would be the most obvious, it's Hale. She's certainly evil enough to go along with Delores's genocide, hell she probably would've committed genocide for a 10% raise, but now she knows she's a host and could very easily believe her future depends on it. 
    JaimieT
  • edited June 2018
    WW features the most unnatural and poorly phrased use of the word "fuck" I've seen during the golden age.
  • bizmarkiefaderbizmarkiefader San Francisco
    Well that was confusing as shit
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    @GredalBee - When was this? I only remember "It's a fucking nightmare."
    KingKobra
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Well that was confusing as shit

    That was confusing as fuck FTFY
  • JaimieT said:
    Well that was confusing as shit

    That was confusing as fuck FTFY
    Fuck, that was confusing as fuck.  Fucking fixed it for you.
    JaimieT
  • edited June 2018
    @JaimieT There's no one specific incident when they all sound juvenile.  Virtually anytime a human speaks.  I remember S1 of The Leftovers had some really odd uses and somebody made a video out of it.

    Edit - The usage of "fuck" is also the least of the show's problems.  ;)
    JaimieT
  • JaimieT said:
    @GredalBee - When was this? I only remember "It's a fucking nightmare."
    Yea, I'm not sure which they were referring to.
    KingKobra
  • JaimieT said:
    @GredalBee - When was this? I only remember "It's a fucking nightmare."
    Also, I believe Elsie said What the Fuck Bernard.  I don’t remember exsessive use of the word and it all seemed “normal”. Of course now on rewatches I’ll be listening for it :/
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited June 2018
    GredalBee said:
    @JaimieT There's no one specific incident when they all sound juvenile.  Virtually anytime a human speaks.  I remember S1 of The Leftovers had some really odd uses and somebody made a video out of it.

    Edit - The usage of "fuck" is also the least of the show's problems.  ;)

    I thought "It's a fucking nightmare" was cheesy, but hardly because of the word "fuck." Just declaring that something is a nightmare before getting out of it is kind of a trope.

    Edit: Also melodramatic because we already knew he was going to shoot her at that point; we'd already been shown she was shot and he was holding the gun. That line would have worked better with a surprise moment.
  • Natter CastNatter Cast San Francisco, CA
    Perfect ending for Teddy. He has always been, after all, a man out standing in his field.

    Overall: that was way too much plot to cram into the season finale. I might have considered the Maeve/Akecheta/Door storyline for earlier in the season, maybe ending with Zombie Clementine appearing over the ridge before leading into this episode. 

    I'm a sucker for good puzzle box storytelling. I loved the first season because it simultaneously invited crazy Lost-level speculation (they're all in a VR simulation of a dream being dreamt by an AI alien time traveler!) but ultimately resolved all the mystery in a fairly grounded way...Bernard is a copy of Arnold, William is the Man in Black. The reveals are easy to explain, connect to the meaning of the character drama and it's pleasing to watch the clues build on rewatch of the season. R+L=J stuff.

    This season's puzzle is equally complex and (ultimately) grounded, but a little less satisfying. Bernard scrambling his memory so he can slowly come to the realization that he copied Hale so he could revive Dolores after having killed Dolores because she's a genocidal lunatic...is less clear. 

    I'll need some rewatches. And far be it from me to criticize a show for making me think too much. But we could have used a little less McGuffin chase and a little more clarity on character motivation. Once you have two androids in a VR simulation hosted by a memory simulacrum of the dead son of a dead man who takes them on a tour of a library that's really a database of bulk human experiences that add up to the paradox that human behavior precedes rather than follows from human intent, well...I'm gonna need the main character to have some sort of relatable point of view on all that.

    On the other hand at least Bernard didn't say love is the only thing that transcends time and space, so we're #winning on that.
    JaimieTKingKobramajjam0770Elisa
  • More questions:

    1. Why were Maeve and company all dumped together on the beach at the end, weren't all the dredged host bodies sent to the Mesa (like Teddy)?

    2. Was the Teddy brain marble that Dolores uploads the one that she jacked up and turned into a sociopath?

    3. The gala survivors have been in a survival scenario in the desert for two weeks. Who the fuck is still wearing tails and a bow tie?
  • A nice detail touch - I thought the human "books" in the forge looked like the slots on the player piano rolls.  Good callback to that image.   

    Why was Karl Strand's book so thin - a commentary on his lack of character development?
    JaimieT
  • More questions:

    1. Why were Maeve and company all dumped together on the beach at the end, weren't all the dredged host bodies sent to the Mesa (like Teddy)?

    2. Was the Teddy brain marble that Dolores uploads the one that she jacked up and turned into a sociopath?

    3. The gala survivors have been in a survival scenario in the desert for two weeks. Who the fuck is still wearing tails and a bow tie?
    1) Could have been above the water line, not sure if they got everyone (I don’t rememebr them saying it was complete). There was a steep drop off from where the hosts entered the Forge and the valley below. 

    2) I don’t think it mattered. He kind of overwrote that with his independent thought. 

    3) I’m guessing some made it to safehouses/locations, but what are they going to change into? No showers, maybe grab clothes from dead hosts? I do get what you mean though. 
  • Making more sense...

    @KingKobra I wasn't referring to the post credits scene. Just in the "present," it seemed like MIB was caught between Bernard in the hatch and Delos security arrival, and they both missed him. He got caught up in the flood, off camera, i guess, and they showed him washed up afterwards. Not a big deal, but confused me.

    My other assumption is that the 1/3 of the hosts with virgin cores either are the ones that went to the Sublime or that Halores (maybe with Felix and Sylvester) managed to pull a swap.
    KingKobra
  • KingKobra said:
    More questions:

    1. Why were Maeve and company all dumped together on the beach at the end, weren't all the dredged host bodies sent to the Mesa (like Teddy)?

    2. Was the Teddy brain marble that Dolores uploads the one that she jacked up and turned into a sociopath?

    3. The gala survivors have been in a survival scenario in the desert for two weeks. Who the fuck is still wearing tails and a bow tie?
    1) Could have been above the water line, not sure if they got everyone (I don’t rememebr them saying it was complete). There was a steep drop off from where the hosts entered the Forge and the valley below. 

    2) I don’t think it mattered. He kind of overwrote that with his independent thought. 

    3) I’m guessing some made it to safehouses/locations, but what are they going to change into? No showers, maybe grab clothes from dead hosts? I do get what you mean though. 
    I thought it was odd that Bernard goes through the effort to keep putting his jacket back on. 
    Murderbearmanhattnik
  • rkcrawf said:
    KingKobra said:
    More questions:

    1. Why were Maeve and company all dumped together on the beach at the end, weren't all the dredged host bodies sent to the Mesa (like Teddy)?

    2. Was the Teddy brain marble that Dolores uploads the one that she jacked up and turned into a sociopath?

    3. The gala survivors have been in a survival scenario in the desert for two weeks. Who the fuck is still wearing tails and a bow tie?
    1) Could have been above the water line, not sure if they got everyone (I don’t rememebr them saying it was complete). There was a steep drop off from where the hosts entered the Forge and the valley below. 

    2) I don’t think it mattered. He kind of overwrote that with his independent thought. 

    3) I’m guessing some made it to safehouses/locations, but what are they going to change into? No showers, maybe grab clothes from dead hosts? I do get what you mean though. 
    I thought it was odd that Bernard goes through the effort to keep putting his jacket back on. 
    He doesn’t need glasses either ;) I think the Jacket, much like the glasses are a part of who he is/was. Arnold always seemed to be dressed up (as does Ford) regardless of location. 
    rkcrawf
  • redlancerredlancer Seattle
    edited June 2018
    When will we we get the Season 2 remix/recut with the episodes & scenes in chronological order? 

    I still can't figure out why the need with all the severely disjointed timeline stuff. I realize normally you would do that to hide some clever reveals and maintain the 'puzzle box', but in thinking through it, all the reveals still seem to work for the most part even if presented in order. I can't think of one thing that would be spoiled by not just having it happen when it happens.

    Even the Dolores as Hale stuff would be interesting if we had seen that in what would be what... episode 6 or 7? I'd love to see 4 episodes of her trying to maintain her disguise and manipulate the Delos forces, as well as implications of hosts switching bodies. But instead we get 10 minutes of it while I sit there trying to think back through the whole season trying to reconcile when Hale was Hale and when Dolores was Hale.

    ghm3Elisarkcrawf
  • Hmm... this show reminds me too much of Lost: A potentially good story obscured by too many smokes and mirrors. 
    Elisa
  • Listening to the “Still Watching Westworld” podcast. They had some good interviews on there with the Director and Shannon Woodward (Elsie). It gives some insight into what was going on and why certain things were done. 
  • I need to watch it again, but I honestly think the episode was visually worth it just for the bull sequence, this SPECTACULAR shot, especially:



    ghm3JaimieTKingKobramajjam0770Doctor_NickMurderbearrkcrawfMichelle
  • redlancerredlancer Seattle
    edited June 2018
    I need to watch it again, but I honestly think the episode was visually worth it just for the bull sequence


    Agreed, that was a visually stunning sequence. Only problem is they essentially gave Maeve unlocked god-mode, which is super-cool, but then didn't really go anywhere with it. Killed in the next scene after [poorly] defending the hosts from zomb-Clementine. She should be full-on Neo from the end of Matrix at this point, complete with stopping bullets with her mind (mesh network control of the 'smart' bullets to make them self-destruct mid-air) and possibly control of all technology in the park.
    Elisarkcrawfbudesigns
  • redlancer said:
    I need to watch it again, but I honestly think the episode was visually worth it just for the bull sequence


    Agreed, that was a visually stunning sequence. Only problem is they essentially gave Maeve unlocked god-mode, which is super-cool, but then didn't really go anywhere with it. Killed in the next scene after [poorly] defending the hosts from zomb-Clementine. She should be full-on Neo from the end of Matrix at this point, complete with stopping bullets with her mind (mesh network control of the 'smart' bullets to make them self-destruct mid-air) and possibly control of all technology in the park.
    The bullets she was shot with weren’t smart bullets though. They were from Delos security who were using “live ammo”. 
    rkcrawf
This discussion has been closed.