210 - The Passenger

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  • bizmarkiefaderbizmarkiefader San Francisco
    Yea, I was really confused about when we were supposed to see the hosts as dying or what it even meant for them to get shot. They either played really loose with that stuff or you need to go full Pepe Silvia to track it.
  • voodooratvoodoorat Atlanta
    edited June 2018
    They really turned up the impossibility of understanding the stakes of the story to 11 in this episode.  It's safe to assume nobody except Elsie and Lee are actually dead. For me it absolutely blunts any emotional impact to anything having no clue what the universe's rules are, and not just stuff like smart bullet operation but literally life and death are unclear. 

    I'm probably out.
    JaimieTGredalBeeElisaSchlupp
  • Well, that was...something.

    I feel a bit vindicated about my negativity this season, because now I can say I'm prescient instead of pessimistic.

    The big warning sign, early on, was the way the show portrayed Delores.  The showrunners are obviously in love with that character and while the viewing audience was getting steadily annoyed with her "arc" and starting to debate whether she was the antagonist, the finale makes it seem like we were supposed to be invested in her journey this whole time.  She's the hero, didn't you know?  All those other characters that people actually cared about aren't even plot devices...they're tangents.

    Yeah, I watched this episode on my phone while I played Civ, so I was already checked out after last week, but I have ZERO anticipation for another season of this show.
    JaimieTDoctor_NickDoubleA_RonElisaNervousRhinoalexander.klassenbrowniefive
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    ken hale said:
    Well, that was...something.

    I feel a bit vindicated about my negativity this season, because now I can say I'm prescient instead of pessimistic.

    The big warning sign, early on, was the way the show portrayed Delores.  The showrunners are obviously in love with that character and while the viewing audience was getting steadily annoyed with her "arc" and starting to debate whether she was the antagonist, the finale makes it seem like we were supposed to be invested in her journey this whole time.  She's the hero, didn't you know?  All those other characters that people actually cared about aren't even plot devices...they're tangents.

    Yeah, I watched this episode on my phone while I played Civ, so I was already checked out after last week, but I have ZERO anticipation for another season of this show.
    I got the opposite feeling on Dolores. It felt like by the end, we are meant to see her as the antagonist while Bernard is the protagonist. And that seems how they are setting up the board for season 3. Or at least they left it up to the viewers to determine if they are team Dolores or Team Bernard. 
    Elisa
  • ken hale said:
    Well, that was...something.

    I feel a bit vindicated about my negativity this season, because now I can say I'm prescient instead of pessimistic.

    The big warning sign, early on, was the way the show portrayed Delores.  The showrunners are obviously in love with that character and while the viewing audience was getting steadily annoyed with her "arc" and starting to debate whether she was the antagonist, the finale makes it seem like we were supposed to be invested in her journey this whole time.  She's the hero, didn't you know?  All those other characters that people actually cared about aren't even plot devices...they're tangents.

    Yeah, I watched this episode on my phone while I played Civ, so I was already checked out after last week, but I have ZERO anticipation for another season of this show.
    I got the opposite feeling on Dolores. It felt like by the end, we are meant to see her as the antagonist while Bernard is the protagonist. And that seems how they are setting up the board for season 3. Or at least they left it up to the viewers to determine if they are team Dolores or Team Bernard. 
    Dolores wasn’t even Dolores for much of this season she was “Wyatt”. I know ERW was trying to fight the fight to let folks know that she was tasked with playing two different characters (Dolores and Wyatt) in the same skin. I do agree about the setup and thought that was fairly blunt. 
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited June 2018
    My biggest issue with the season and finale, aside from how loose they played with the rules such as why hosts die when they're shot, is that their thesis on humanity is very dark and kind of stupid. At least if you trust what the Forge "System" tells Bernard and Dolores about humans.

    Not just that we are "bad" because I wouldn't blame the Forge system from making that determination based solely on the behavior of humans within the park. I take issue with their determination that our minds are incredibly simple, and somehow against all logic the human mind is far more simple than the hosts minds that were created by humans.
    If an ant created another being in its image to replicate it's own mental and physical form, would the ants creation be objectively considered more complex than the ant itself? Not in my opinion.

    Of course, this is all measured by the relatively small and simple file size of the human consciousness, which could leave it open to the viewers to consider that perhaps the Forge can't properly digitize everything from the human mind. Perhaps the human mind is far more complex than a computer program can comprehend or quantify using 1's and 0's, because even humans can't properly quantify what makes us "us" so how could a machine we created? I could agree with that.
    Elisa
  • edited June 2018
    I've gone back and read through about 4 pages of this thread, and the number of plotholes or technicalities that are still unanswered (some from the beginning of season 1!) is mind-boggling.  I've concluded that the answer to every lingering question people have is: "...because the show isn't that good and the creators are living in a simulation up their own asses."

    Still wondering how those magic bullets work when manual host-detectors are so cumbersome?  Now you know.
    Why do some hosts walk through bullet storms and some die of exposure?  See above.
    ElisaNervousRhino
  • My biggest issue with the season and finale, aside from how loose they played with the rules such as why hosts die when they're shot, is that their thesis on humanity is very dark and kind of stupid. At least if you trust what the Forge "System" tells Bernard and Dolores about humans.

    Not just that we are "bad" because I wouldn't blame the Forge system from making that determination based solely on the behavior of humans within the park. I take issue with their determination that our minds are incredibly simple, and somehow against all logic the human mind is far more simple than the hosts minds that were created by humans.
    If an ant created another being in its image to replicate it's own mental and physical form, would the ants creation be objectively considered more complex than the ant itself? Not in my opinion.

    Of course, this is all measured by the relatively small and simple file size of the human consciousness, which could leave it open to the viewers to consider that perhaps the Forge can't properly digitize everything from the human mind. Perhaps the human mind is far more complex than a computer program can comprehend or quantify using 1's and 0's, because even humans can't properly quantify what makes us "us" so how could a machine we created? I could agree with that.
    Isn’t this part of what they want us to grapple with? That as humans we “think” we are complex beings, but if we meet a more intelligent race they could see us as very simple. In this case we created beings that (in their POV) are far more advanced than us. We have these discussions about AI today, if we create AI thatbis able to process and retain data better than we can, what would happen to us? Would this group of beings destroy us as we do with things we think that are lesser than us? It’s part of our “self” that we as humans think we are special, but much like Dolores and the Forge (understanding of humans) we only have a finite understanding of life in this universe. 
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited June 2018
    I take issue with their determination that our minds are incredibly simple, and somehow against all logic the human mind is far more simple than the hosts minds that were created by humans.
    If an ant created another being in its image to replicate it's own mental and physical form, would the ants creation be objectively considered more complex than the ant itself? Not in my opinion.

    I was ready to LOVE that scene, with the fucking cool visuals and sense of discovery, but as soon as Server Logan picked up the book and said, "This is the entirety of a human" or whatever, I took a moment to admire the player piano code and then I got out my phone and phone-watched for 10 minutes.

    My head canon was telling me those books were zip files x1000, but it's clear the writers wanted to impress upon us how basic we are.

    KingKobra said:
    Isn’t this part of what they want us to grapple with? That as humans we “think” we are complex beings, but if we meet a more intelligent race they could see us as very simple. 

    Unfortunately this was a brand spanking new idea presented in the finale of season 2. The first 9 episodes seem to support the idea that hosts are pretty simple (12 or so parameters dictating their personality, Dolores having the characterization of a 3-year-old) and humans are pretty complex (Delos keeps glitching out, Lee and William with the best character arcs). Obviously I think it's more complex than that and was ready for a turn, but I was ready for a turn not a flip.
    Doctor_Nickroscoe
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited June 2018
    KingKobra said:
    My biggest issue with the season and finale, aside from how loose they played with the rules such as why hosts die when they're shot, is that their thesis on humanity is very dark and kind of stupid. At least if you trust what the Forge "System" tells Bernard and Dolores about humans.

    Not just that we are "bad" because I wouldn't blame the Forge system from making that determination based solely on the behavior of humans within the park. I take issue with their determination that our minds are incredibly simple, and somehow against all logic the human mind is far more simple than the hosts minds that were created by humans.
    If an ant created another being in its image to replicate it's own mental and physical form, would the ants creation be objectively considered more complex than the ant itself? Not in my opinion.

    Of course, this is all measured by the relatively small and simple file size of the human consciousness, which could leave it open to the viewers to consider that perhaps the Forge can't properly digitize everything from the human mind. Perhaps the human mind is far more complex than a computer program can comprehend or quantify using 1's and 0's, because even humans can't properly quantify what makes us "us" so how could a machine we created? I could agree with that.
    Isn’t this part of what they want us to grapple with? That as humans we “think” we are complex beings, but if we meet a more intelligent race they could see us as very simple. In this case we created beings that (in their POV) are far more advanced than us. We have these discussions about AI today, if we create AI thatbis able to process and retain data better than we can, what would happen to us? Would this group of beings destroy us as we do with things we think that are lesser than us? It’s part of our “self” that we as humans think we are special, but much like Dolores and the Forge (understanding of humans) we only have a finite understanding of life in this universe. 
    I actually agree that they are superior in brain computing ability, memory retention, ability to assess a situation logically, etc., and that's a huge worry for humans and a potential AI revolution. I think there is a vast difference between saying that your mind is superior in multiple ways and saying that your mind is innately more complex. 
    Because what does complexity even mean? 

    Perhaps this simple view on the human mind was to show that even AI robots have the same flawed bias and hubris as humans do? I could be down with that, but it's something that they didn't really explore yet in this season or episode.
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited June 2018
    Anyone care to guess why Ford was not recruited for the secret project to put humans into hosts?  It would seem pretty natural to have the scientist responsible for host design and behavior working on that plan - as demonstrated by the fact that Ford actually leapfrogged the Delos plan in capability.

    Or did we learn about this at some point?
    majjam0770
  • KingKobra said:
    My biggest issue with the season and finale, aside from how loose they played with the rules such as why hosts die when they're shot, is that their thesis on humanity is very dark and kind of stupid. At least if you trust what the Forge "System" tells Bernard and Dolores about humans.

    Not just that we are "bad" because I wouldn't blame the Forge system from making that determination based solely on the behavior of humans within the park. I take issue with their determination that our minds are incredibly simple, and somehow against all logic the human mind is far more simple than the hosts minds that were created by humans.
    If an ant created another being in its image to replicate it's own mental and physical form, would the ants creation be objectively considered more complex than the ant itself? Not in my opinion.

    Of course, this is all measured by the relatively small and simple file size of the human consciousness, which could leave it open to the viewers to consider that perhaps the Forge can't properly digitize everything from the human mind. Perhaps the human mind is far more complex than a computer program can comprehend or quantify using 1's and 0's, because even humans can't properly quantify what makes us "us" so how could a machine we created? I could agree with that.
    Isn’t this part of what they want us to grapple with? That as humans we “think” we are complex beings, but if we meet a more intelligent race they could see us as very simple. In this case we created beings that (in their POV) are far more advanced than us. We have these discussions about AI today, if we create AI thatbis able to process and retain data better than we can, what would happen to us? Would this group of beings destroy us as we do with things we think that are lesser than us? It’s part of our “self” that we as humans think we are special, but much like Dolores and the Forge (understanding of humans) we only have a finite understanding of life in this universe. 
    I actually agree that they are superior in brain computing ability, memory retention, ability to assess a situation logically, etc., and that's a huge worry for humans and a potential AI revolution. I think there is a vast difference between saying that your mind is superior in multiple ways and saying that your mind is innately more complex. 
    Because what does complexity even mean? 

    Perhaps this simple view on the human mind was to show that even AI robots have the same flawed bias and hubris as humans do? I could be down with that, but it's something that they didn't really explore yet in this season or episode.
    That’s one of the questions no? Why are we thinking that we as humans are “complex”? It’s  one of the avenues I hope they go down, but they have only scratched the surface of. 

    The simple view sort of works (IMO). We created beings that are “better” than us in so many ways, but at the same time because we built them in our image, they would/could have the same faults. We see a change in Dolores from “kill them all”, you are either with me or against me type thinking to a “measured” approach where she knows that to succeed she will need a counterpart to “check” her hardline view. 

    While I hope they do dive deeper into this type of discussion, I’m not sure how that would play to audiences. A much less popular show that removes the mysteries, but focuses instead on Human/AI interactions is HUMANS. I really like that show, butnfor differnet reasons than I like Westworld. 
    manhattnik
  • With a few days of reckoning with this episode and the season as a whole, I think that Westworld's fatalistic theme that humans can't change (and we're almost uniformly shitty) is what bothers me the most.  One, I do not think it's true.  But even more so, in this time of tremendous political strife and division in America, I believe we are all starving to find our common bonds as human beings, because it's seemingly almost impossible for many Americans to find common bonds in ideologies with other Americans right now (I'm sure this applies outside the U.S. as well). 

    I don't need or want my entertainment to be bubble gum and butterflies, but I find that it truly negatively affects my psyche to repeatedly consume and absorb content of any kind (news, books, tv, whatever) that basically says there is no light at the end of the tunnel.  In the past two years, I've had to consciously stop watching and reading the news very much (which makes me feel very vulnerable to be less informed than I normally am), and I've stopped watching shows that are magnificently written and acted, but are just too depressing to allow into my headspace (Handmaid's Tale, for instance).  It's different for everyone, obviously, but I've found that purposefully avoiding dystopian and extremely dark content has been a form of necessary self-care for my mental health.  I'm not giving up on the show, but I think that's what's bothering me more than all of the plot and character machinations.  Simply put, it just bums me the fuck out.
    All the ChickensElisamajjam0770
  • lengmolengmo RTP, NC
    I take issue with their determination that our minds are incredibly simple, and somehow against all logic the human mind is far more simple than the hosts minds that were created by humans.
    In general I agree with your points but just to note a real world counterexample:
    "Researchers, he said, do not know why some [AI] algorithms work and others don't [...]" '"There's an anguish in the field," Rahimi says. "Many of us feel like we're operating on an alien technology."'

    OTOH, I'm sure researchers in 2018 don't know exactly how the human brain works either.

    The show seems to lose its way when computing equipment other than tablets and host brains appears.
  • edited June 2018
    JaimieT said:

    I was ready to LOVE that scene, with the fucking cool visuals and sense of discovery, but as soon as Server Logan picked up the book and said, "This is the entirety of a human" or whatever, I took a moment to admire the player piano code and then I got out my phone and phone-watched for 10 minutes.

    My head canon was telling me those books were zip files x1000, but it's clear the writers wanted to impress upon us how basic we are.
    "Life has a melody, JaimieT... a rhythm of notes that become your existence once played in harmony with God's plan. It's time to do your part and realize your destiny."



    That scene came to my mind and I prefer that over any techno/psychobabbling architect everytime. Is Dolores to be the protector of a new generation of AIs? The shape of things to come seems unnecessary blurry and I'm not sure I want to explore that smog zone.

    The whole Logan scene was bordering on parody for me, "highway crossing frog, lamest thing I ever heard".



    I was waiting for some 4th wall breaking as well, like I dunno a talking pizza roll or something.


    I fhad flashbacks to other shows that did the same concepts much better  the whole time like they were trying waayyy to hard with an already broken universe.






    Elisaalexander.klassen
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Schlupp said:





    And Aron recently said that running gag was bad...

    Okay it got a little long, but the review is so much better for having it
    Schlupp
  • edited June 2018
    Instead of guessing who is a host or what is real it would have been more interesting to explore the relationships especially human / awakened hosts. I was kind of bumped out that it didn't matter in the end if a host was awake or not they just walked through the portal or got collected. No complex choices at all. How are hosts supposed to evolve without the maze? Can they evolve in a paradise construct? Do they have to go back in season 3 maybe because they need the pain and suffering?
    On another matter I would have found it interesting to play with the concepts like legal status of an AI construct like Delos and Wiliam to get a better glimpse of the human society. I found it strange that we don't see the top tier train their own virtual backups to make sure it's the real thing. I hope the awakened hosts get some sort of legal status as well, this could very well turn into a court drama soon like, Dolores: "I'm not gonna kill you, I will sue you ". :-)


    ElisaJaimieTmajjam0770
  • lengmolengmo RTP, NC
    edited June 2018
    Schlupp said:
    I found it strange that we don't see the top tier train their own virtual backups to make sure it's the real thing.
    A ) it was a secret project with one test subject who didn't work
    B ) people would try to train their virtual backups to be "better" than they are.
  • edited June 2018
    lengmo said:
    Schlupp said:
    I found it strange that we don't see the top tier train their own virtual backups to make sure it's the real thing.
    A ) it was a secret project with one test subject who didn't work
    B ) people would try to train their virtual backups to be "better" than they are.
    Sure, but I would have liked to to see them try it and fail and maybe realizing what kind of person they are. I was surprised we didn't get the meeting yourself as a host reveal a single time other than memory/virtual worlds. Or any corporate plot for that matter like getting rid of Wiliam as it happened with Ford and maybe replacing him with a host as a facade. Which might have forced him to ally with Dolores or Maeve and I don't know offer free passage out of the park or legal status for awakened hosts or something to save himself.  You know, some stakes I could care about and feel an emotional connection. There weren't really many aligned interests which lead to something important, it felt rather disjointed to me. And Ford didn't come to the rescue with a reveal of his master plan so I guess there isn't one, just crisis and observation or something.

  • Schlupp said:
    Instead of guessing who is a host or what is real it would have been more interesting to explore the relationships especially human / awakened hosts. I was kind of bumped out that it didn't matter in the end if a host was awake or not they just walked through the portal or got collected. No complex choices at all. How are hosts supposed to evolve without the maze? Can they evolve in a paradise construct? Do they have to go back in season 3 maybe because they need the pain and suffering?
    On another matter I would have found it interesting to play with the concepts like legal status of an AI construct like Delos and Wiliam to get a better glimpse of the human society. I found it strange that we don't see the top tier train their own virtual backups to make sure it's the real thing. I hope the awakened hosts get some sort of legal status as well, this could very well turn into a court drama soon like, Dolores: "I'm not gonna kill you, I will sue you ". :-)


    Cough watch Humans, cough, cough......

    also we did sort of see the “meet yourself” with Hale (even though it wasn’t really her). Would the Host Hale kill real Hale (knowing what we know about real Hale)?
    Schlupp
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    BTW, wonderful podcast @Jim and @A_Ron_Hubbard. One of the best I've listened to in a while. (The Expanse is so good you don't get to discuss negatives as much.)
    SchluppNervousRhinoMFGmajjam0770rkcrawf
  • KingKobra said:Cough watch Humans, cough, cough......
    I will, thanks for the reminder :-)

    KingKobra said:also we did sort of see the “meet yourself” with Hale (even though it wasn’t really her). Would the Host Hale kill real Hale (knowing what we know about real Hale)?

    Hale yeah.





    KingKobra
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited June 2018
    It's an interesting choice by the creators to setup a situation where there's no final death.  In Westworld, anyone who is remembered well enough can come back, including supposedly ultra-complex hosts.  It really does rserve to lower the stakes and the stakes lowering was made much more clear in this finale of the second season..

    I imagine they'll get into double sleeving (copies of brains or Westworld "marbles" active in multiple bodies at once) next season and possibly retcon it into the first two seasons,  Even in super pulpy Altered Carbon, "real death" was a serious possibility for everyone but the ultra wealthy, someone else couldn't just hit the reset button if your current body was damaged badly enough and death still lurks out there.
    JaimieTSchluppElisa
  • I agree, it is not a good sign when a pulpy show like altered carbon has higher stakes,  more impactful storylines and better established  ground rules than westworld. 
    JaimieTElisa
  • Teresa from ConcordTeresa from Concord Concord, California
    I agree with every issue already mentioned, and feel there are mcuh more. The bottom line...it's a bad show with bad writing. Dolores/Wyatt was painful to watch. And yes, there were a few good moments, but not enough for me to watch season 3. I'm done. 

    Also wondering -  who has the time and energy to watch a show multiple times, read multiple blogs, listen to multiple interviews, and then say "Yes I Get It!" and think that's a normal routine for watching a TV show? Unless this is your job. (wink wink Jim and ARon)
    MFGElisaDoctor_Nick
  • Of course, this is all measured by the relatively small and simple file size of the human consciousness, which could leave it open to the viewers to consider that perhaps the Forge can't properly digitize everything from the human mind. Perhaps the human mind is far more complex than a computer program can comprehend or quantify using 1's and 0's, because even humans can't properly quantify what makes us "us" so how could a machine we created? I could agree with that.
     

    Looking deeper at this, I think that this short code, in the context of the show, has to be taken with a grain of salt.  This coded human consciousness was modeled by a robot with a goal to reach stability and fidelity to observed memories.  This is a sort of arbitrary and arguably not realistic standard for consciousness.  They are making a player-piano card version of a human being and call it the real thing.   They just make something that will play back like a video recording given a determined set of circumstances. 

     And add to this the robot who designed this model of human consciousness was initially built by humans to model humanity.  Is it any wonder that something gets lost in the attempts to copy? 

     I would guess a human with this simple code, downloaded into a body would largely act human and most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference but I wonder.  An interesting thought is If MIB was a host for decades, then perhaps his family was able to tell something was missing in him which eventually caused destruction in his family and his life.
    Giovanni
  • I think we can all agree this was a great episode and season finale 

    /thread
    sarahtatugarkcrawfbudesigns
  • I agree with every issue already mentioned, and feel there are mcuh more. The bottom line...it's a bad show with bad writing. Dolores/Wyatt was painful to watch. And yes, there were a few good moments, but not enough for me to watch season 3. I'm done. 

    Also wondering -  who has the time and energy to watch a show multiple times, read multiple blogs, listen to multiple interviews, and then say "Yes I Get It!" and think that's a normal routine for watching a TV show? Unless this is your job. (wink wink Jim and ARon)
    To your first point, I agree entirely. I hate the Delores character so much it’s completely overwritten my opinion of Evan Rachel Wood. Like, I’m gonna scowl just hearing her name now.

    To your second point, I was thinking today about The Shining, which is famous for the depth of theorizing and sleuthing that people can do. The difference, though, is that movie tells a simple story that is enjoyable and coherent on the face of it, and all of the symbolism and meaning is subtext that adds depth. With this show, they’re literally trying to push all the sleuthing and theorizing to the forefront, as if that’s the whole appeal of watching the show, but the actual story they’re telling in the background isn’t very interesting. 
    JaimieTElisaTeresa from ConcordMoonMan13
  • edited June 2018
    So what was the deal with Dolores going around telling hosts "not everyone deserves to make it to the valley beyond?" Like, what's the distinction she was drawing? Why do Teddy and her Wyatt followers get a pass while other randos are are assumed to be beyond redemption? In retrospect it kind of feels like it was just what Sam Jackson would call " some cold-blooded shit to say to a motherfucker before I popped a cap in his ass." 
    majjam0770rkcrawfbudesigns
  • MFGMFG
    edited June 2018
    Of course, this is all measured by the relatively small and simple file size of the human consciousness, which could leave it open to the viewers to consider that perhaps the Forge can't properly digitize everything from the human mind. Perhaps the human mind is far more complex than a computer program can comprehend or quantify using 1's and 0's, because even humans can't properly quantify what makes us "us" so how could a machine we created? I could agree with that.
     

    Looking deeper at this, I think that this short code, in the context of the show, has to be taken with a grain of salt.  This coded human consciousness was modeled by a robot with a goal to reach stability and fidelity to observed memories.  This is a sort of arbitrary and arguably not realistic standard for consciousness.  They are making a player-piano card version of a human being and call it the real thing.   They just make something that will play back like a video recording given a determined set of circumstances. 

     And add to this the robot who designed this model of human consciousness was initially built by humans to model humanity.  Is it any wonder that something gets lost in the attempts to copy? 

     I would guess a human with this simple code, downloaded into a body would largely act human and most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference but I wonder.  An interesting thought is If MIB was a host for decades, then perhaps his family was able to tell something was missing in him which eventually caused destruction in his family and his life.
    My thoughts exactly. Logan's monologue does not reflect Nolan's and Joy's bleak view of human nature (inescapable determinism) but an AIs attempt to fit the simplest model that passes a personality Turing test...
    majjam0770Giovanni
This discussion has been closed.