SPOILER GRRM Regrets

In the last podcast (304 - and now his watch is ended), one of the pieces of feedback was that apparently GRRM told the author of the outlander series that he was regretting killing off a character because it was making it difficult for him to finish his story.

Assuming this is true (I'm guessing a lot got lost in translation here, and the statement wasn't this strong from GRRM), who do we think he was talking about? 

Comments

  • FreddyFreddy Denton, Texas
    edited August 3
    Oh man... Thats a tough one. The only characters I can think of who might fit that bill are Tywin and Rob. But even then, both of them seem to have been replaced in the story well enough. Maybe one of the Stark parents? Still, with all the characters in the show, who would serve such a unique purpose that another chracter couldn't take that purpose over?

    Personally, I think he's just making excuses. "If wasn't for my ex-girlfriend stealing my computer, I would have finished college and followed my dreams instead of being stuck at the bottom of bottle and working at Outback."
    asmallcatElisa
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    Jon? Ha
    Elisagguenot
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Most characters deaths either didn't make a huge difference in the overall story, or their death would completely change everything else in the books and not just a plot point in the Winds of Winds or Dreams of Spring.

    Can't be Ned or Cat Stark, since one of their deaths is the inciting factor for the war and the other, well.... isn't really dead in the books. I can't see Robb still being alive in the books, because him still being alive today would have changed the entire series, unless GRRM just kept him locked away in some Frey or Bolton dungeon after the Red Wedding for later use in TWOW. But even that greatly changes Cat Starks story arch if they decided to kill her still in the Red Wedding (which I doubt they would if they won't even kill Robb). Lady Stoneheart wouldn't have such a stoney heart. And it takes away from the shock and horror of the Red Wedding if Robb isn't murdered and had his corpse paraded around, especially since his baby momma in the books wasn't at the Red Wedding.

    Maybe Renly, if Stannis  dies in TWOW similar to the show? But even his death needed to happen in order for Tyrells to ally with the Lannisters and defeat Stannis. Tywin maybe? But that changes everything about Tyrions character arch.

    If his quote was related to the Meereenese Knot, then I have zero clue who it could be. Not that many pivotal characters around Dany have died since book one, and I have no idea what the story would look like if they had lived. Ser Barristan Selmy is still alive in the books, although i wouldn't say his death would be a game changer anyhow.

    Perhaps GRRM realizes that the character in question absolutely HAD to die, but he was just lamenting the fact that it's unfortunate because their character would have been useful later on in some plot that we readers have yet to conceive of.
    duncanpowersElisa
  • edited August 3
    It's difficult to know who it could be without also knowing at what point he said that in his writing process. Killed like, it was already at the printers, or killed like it's in his outline and he can't figure out a way around it? The best I can find is "a few years ago," but he's been "working" on TWOW since 2011. It could easily be someone in that novel, which doesn't narrow it down at all. Maybe he kills someone at the beginning and realizes he needs that person at the end, but now he's written 1000 pages without them. Victarion? Benjen? (haha)

    I was amused to read his complaint that he's again painted himself into a corner. Oh George.
    MurderbearElisa
  • Gotta be Grey Wind ... he doesn't have enough direwolves left!
    asmallcatMurderbearNoelElisa
  • Most characters deaths either didn't make a huge difference in the overall story, or their death would completely change everything else in the books and not just a plot point in the Winds of Winds or Dreams of Spring.

    Can't be Ned or Cat Stark, since one of their deaths is the inciting factor for the war and the other, well.... isn't really dead in the books. I can't see Robb still being alive in the books, because him still being alive today would have changed the entire series, unless GRRM just kept him locked away in some Frey or Bolton dungeon after the Red Wedding for later use in TWOW. But even that greatly changes Cat Starks story arch if they decided to kill her still in the Red Wedding (which I doubt they would if they won't even kill Robb). Lady Stoneheart wouldn't have such a stoney heart. And it takes away from the shock and horror of the Red Wedding if Robb isn't murdered and had his corpse paraded around, especially since his baby momma in the books wasn't at the Red Wedding.

    Maybe Renly, if Stannis  dies in TWOW similar to the show? But even his death needed to happen in order for Tyrells to ally with the Lannisters and defeat Stannis. Tywin maybe? But that changes everything about Tyrions character arch.

    If his quote was related to the Meereenese Knot, then I have zero clue who it could be. Not that many pivotal characters around Dany have died since book one, and I have no idea what the story would look like if they had lived. Ser Barristan Selmy is still alive in the books, although i wouldn't say his death would be a game changer anyhow.

    Perhaps GRRM realizes that the character in question absolutely HAD to die, but he was just lamenting the fact that it's unfortunate because their character would have been useful later on in some plot that we readers have yet to conceive of.
    The ONLY things I can think of are either A: Leaving no Baratheons alive and the Stormlands are somehow vitally important or B: As floated by Aaron, killing Kevan as it leaves no competent leadership in the Red Keep that could believably put up a fight against Dany. 

    Most major characters who die feel like they either had to die for GRRM's story to work or that their deaths were vital parts of character development. Is there anyone on the Essos side of things? Khal Drogo, Dany's unborn son, who else died over there that could have conceivably been a major player? 
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Lommy.




    duncanpowersNoelFreddyElisaMurderbearA_Ron_Hubbard
  • MattyWeavesMattyWeaves Mid-State New York
    What about Joffrey?

    If he was alive, we wouldn't have to start the Cersei has named herself Queen story. And yeah his death obviously starts a whole story with Tyrion, but he could have easily "killed" someone else and still been put on trial.

    Sansa could have "died" and shipped off with Littlefinger while unconscious, while Tyrion is on trial for killing his wife.
    telephoneofmadnessElisa
  • What about Joffrey?

    If he was alive, we wouldn't have to start the Cersei has named herself Queen story. And yeah his death obviously starts a whole story with Tyrion, but he could have easily "killed" someone else and still been put on trial.

    Sansa could have "died" and shipped off with Littlefinger while unconscious, while Tyrion is on trial for killing his wife.
    I'm not a book reader, but I thought killing off Joffrey in the TV version was a mistake. After he died Cersei basically had to take over his role of being the Lannister who makes stupid, chaotic decisions.
    Doctor_NickElisa
  • How would Joffrey affect the end game in a way that Cersei couldn't? Just that GRRM is getting mired in her predicament like he did with Dany? That he has to keep her alive to manage King's Landing through the battle vs. having Jaime strangle her on the way out the door?
    Elisatelephoneofmadness
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited August 3
    What about Joffrey?

    If he was alive, we wouldn't have to start the Cersei has named herself Queen story. And yeah his death obviously starts a whole story with Tyrion, but he could have easily "killed" someone else and still been put on trial.

    Sansa could have "died" and shipped off with Littlefinger while unconscious, while Tyrion is on trial for killing his wife.
    I'm not a book reader, but I thought killing off Joffrey in the TV version was a mistake. After he died Cersei basically had to take over his role of being the Lannister who makes stupid, chaotic decisions.
    The writers want us to think that she is far more calculating than Joffrey was, and that she is an upgrade to Joff. It's pretty apparent when they kept having characters on screen point out that she is her fathers daughter in a impressed tone. 

    As far as Joff goes, he's the lowest on my list of possibilities. Aside from radically changing most of the plot of the TV show and books (no Cersei vs Tyrion hatefest cranked up to 1000, a less compelling trial for "killing" his prisoner-wife with no corpse and no reason for Cersei to work against him to rig the trial, no Cersei/Margery imprisonment, no walk of atonement, no High Sparrow, no blowing up the Sept, etc.), I also don't see that he was the leader that was ever meant to be facing down Dany or the army of the dead in the end game. So even with those radical changes, they would have killed him before Dany landed in Westeros. 

    The only way that they could have Joff still be alive and in charge and not have the Lannisters be wiped off the map by Dany almost immediately is if Tywin were also still alive and he basically took the leadership reigns and sent Joff to his room. 

    Can you imagine Joff being present at the big parley between all of the major players in season 7 finale? It would have been hilariously bad.
    duncanpowers
  • How would Joffrey affect the end game in a way that Cersei couldn't? Just that GRRM is getting mired in her predicament like he did with Dany? That he has to keep her alive to manage King's Landing through the battle vs. having Jaime strangle her on the way out the door?
    I think the point isn't what Joffrey would have done, but what killing him made the Cersei character into, 
    ElisatelephoneofmadnessMurderbear
  • edited August 4
    How would Joffrey affect the end game in a way that Cersei couldn't? Just that GRRM is getting mired in her predicament like he did with Dany? That he has to keep her alive to manage King's Landing through the battle vs. having Jaime strangle her on the way out the door?
    I think one thing that changes is that Joffrey, as Robert Baratheon's son (as far as most people knew), had a claim to the throne that was at least as strong as Dany's/Jon's. I'm not sure that Cersei has any right to the throne, or any way to produce legitimate heirs, which makes it a lot easier for Dany/Jon to justify taking over.

    I suppose there's an argument that the rebels could have installed one of the Mad King's children on the throne after he was killed, but I don't know how practical that would have been.
  • pate
    asmallcatMurderbearNoel
  • edited August 4
    I'd go with Quentyn. In the books Arianne is probably going to hook up with Aegon, which more than likely leads to both their doom. That means that Dorne is once again left without an obvious successor, and no way for Dany to utilize them. Even if Quentyn wasn't going to end up with Dany he would still have been as useful ally to have around. Instead Martin had to go and roast the poor kid for dramatic effect. 
    voodoorat
  • Is Tommen alive in the books?  Not that he had much of his own character....
  • Is Tommen alive in the books?  Not that he had much of his own character....
    Yes, he's still like six and playing cats with Margery. <span>:open_mouth:</span>
  • I present you with the list of candidates...

    http://jsfiddle.net/davidThomas/nujtymy6/3/embedded/result/ 
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