A few good men discussion

thanks @Jim and @A_Ron_Hubbard for another great discussion and analysis of one of my favorite films. I really enjoyed it.
ghm3bazjenster

Comments

  • Great movie and podcast. Here's a video of a trial lawyer giving input about some of the scenes from the movie:


    Dummy
  • Great podcast on a great movie as usual.

    Just wanted to comment about you guys talking about colonel jessop’s character seeming a little weird for wasting his time calling a code red on a random fuck up. I think for him it’s about the toughness of people under his command representing him. If Santiago goes off to another base and can’t handle the drills then it will look bad on him.
    He also seems like one of those kinds of guys that we see a lot in today’s football coaches. Just look at the Maryland football scandal where the player dies because they over worked and didn’t allow water breaks seemingly because taking breaks and drinking water is weakness. Then you have the browns coach on hard knocks talking about how stretching is weakness and the people in war didn’t stretch so it’s a waste of time. I could see Jessop. doing either or both of these things on a daily basis. 
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    I really appreciate Aron's Moses commentary. I'd never thought of it that way. Damn I need to read the Old Testament again with my God glasses off this time.
    RenaisWomn
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    What never sat right with me, and maybe I missed something, why did Markinson go AWOL and then contact Coffey and then eat his pistol? Like that whole sequence was really always very weird to me. Also what always seemed weird was the plane, like Santiago should’ve been on an earlier plane, but it was a super secret flight with no records, then the Airmen are brought in to counter testify, but they know nothing of a plane but it intimidates Jessup because there really was the red eye plane? Like that was super weird too, because it seemed part of Caffeys case was that Santiago should’ve been on this earlier flight that’s been covered up and yet the dramatic reveal is it maybe didn’t even happen?
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    edited August 2018
    As far as the dishonorable discharge, it’s not “considered a felony” it’s a punishment for conviction at court martial of a crime considered equal to a felony. You can only be dishonorably discharged if convicted of a crime at court martial (so say you beat someone to death, you get convicted, and the offense is serious, you would be sentenced to jail time, reduction in rank to lowest grade, and your discharge classification is dishonorable are the punishments) if someone like say, Santiago, is just a fuck up and gets seperated early from the service because he can’t hack it or for unsatisfactory job performance (but no crime) he may get a “general” discharge. No veterans benefits usually but also it’s not indicative of a criminal conviction.

    an ancillary bit of trivia, dishonorable discharge forfeits gun rights, other categories do not. 

    So how a dishonorable effects your career in the civilian world depends, it would be legally very similar to being found guilty in a civilian court of manslaughter 
  • edited August 2018
    adobo1148cdrive
  • @emnofseattle Markensen felt guilty that he didn’t stand up stronger for Santiago in that initial meeting with Jessup and Kendrick. He ate his pistol because in his mind, testifying couldn’t make it right. Nothing could. I think it goes back to the theme of honor. He lost his, and in his mind, he couldn’t get it back no matter what because he failed to save Santiago.

    the flight- there was an earlier flight, but Jessup has the power to delete all records of it, and Kaffee brought in the ground crew in hope of proving an earlier flight existed, of course, they couldn’t remember weeks later, so it was to make Jessup nervous, because he “doctored the log books” and made the flight disappear. He was good at covering his tracks, but he slipped up with his conflicting testimony.
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    edited August 2018
    seanray said:
    @emnofseattle Markensen felt guilty that he didn’t stand up stronger for Santiago in that initial meeting with Jessup and Kendrick. He ate his pistol because in his mind, testifying couldn’t make it right. Nothing could. I think it goes back to the theme of honor. He lost his, and in his mind, he couldn’t get it back no matter what because he failed to save Santiago.

    the flight- there was an earlier flight, but Jessup has the power to delete all records of it, and Kaffee brought in the ground crew in hope of proving an earlier flight existed, of course, they couldn’t remember weeks later, so it was to make Jessup nervous, because he “doctored the log books” and made the flight disappear. He was good at covering his tracks, but he slipped up with his conflicting testimony.
    I just thought about this, and I forgive Sorkin for not thinking of this, but any flight leaving Cuba for Washington, even a military flight is in contact with air traffic control, and in that case in two countries so after takeoff they would be handed off to Cuban ATC at Havana Center, then the FAA at Miami center, then Washington Center, then Washington TRACON then Andrews Approach then Andrews tower, all of these are regulated by the FAA, and are public records, including audio recordings which are maintained for some time before being deleted, there’s no way for Jessup to suppress that, because all of this conversation is required for safety purposes and would be on frequencies shared with dozens of aircraft at a time. So JessupAir01 takes off from Gitmo “Havana Center, this is J-A 01 blah blah blah, then after exiting Cuban airspace “Ja 01 contact Miami center 122.9 (I’m making the frequency up) and each time the controller changes they will tell the pilot the next frequency. 

    So axtually it shouldve been really easy for Moore and Caffey to trace that plane, god they’re incompetent public records of a flight from civil aviation authorities in two separate countries...
  • seanray said:
    @emnofseattle Markensen felt guilty that he didn’t stand up stronger for Santiago in that initial meeting with Jessup and Kendrick. He ate his pistol because in his mind, testifying couldn’t make it right. Nothing could. I think it goes back to the theme of honor. He lost his, and in his mind, he couldn’t get it back no matter what because he failed to save Santiago.

    the flight- there was an earlier flight, but Jessup has the power to delete all records of it, and Kaffee brought in the ground crew in hope of proving an earlier flight existed, of course, they couldn’t remember weeks later, so it was to make Jessup nervous, because he “doctored the log books” and made the flight disappear. He was good at covering his tracks, but he slipped up with his conflicting testimony.
    I just thought about this, and I forgive Sorkin for not thinking of this, but any flight leaving Cuba for Washington, even a military flight is in contact with air traffic control, and in that case in two countries so after takeoff they would be handed off to Cuban ATC at Havana Center, then the FAA at Miami center, then Washington Center, then Washington TRACON then Andrews Approach then Andrews tower, all of these are regulated by the FAA, and are public records, including audio recordings which are maintained for some time before being deleted, there’s no way for Jessup to suppress that, because all of this conversation is required for safety purposes and would be on frequencies shared with dozens of aircraft at a time. So JessupAir01 takes off from Gitmo “Havana Center, this is J-A 01 blah blah blah, then after exiting Cuban airspace “Ja 01 contact Miami center 122.9 (I’m making the frequency up) and each time the controller changes they will tell the pilot the next frequency. 

    So axtually it shouldve been really easy for Moore and Caffey to trace that plane, god they’re incompetent public records of a flight from civil aviation authorities in two separate countries...
    The curse of knowing too much about whatever the movie's about lol. Almost every movie shortcuts stuff like this, but 99% of the time we don't notice cause we don't know it wouldn't work like that. 

    For me, at least, though, once it's something i KNOW doesn't work like that, I often lose any suspension of disbelief and can't enjoy the movie. 
  • emnofseattleemnofseattle Mason County, Washington USA
    seanray said:
    @emnofseattle Markensen felt guilty that he didn’t stand up stronger for Santiago in that initial meeting with Jessup and Kendrick. He ate his pistol because in his mind, testifying couldn’t make it right. Nothing could. I think it goes back to the theme of honor. He lost his, and in his mind, he couldn’t get it back no matter what because he failed to save Santiago.

    the flight- there was an earlier flight, but Jessup has the power to delete all records of it, and Kaffee brought in the ground crew in hope of proving an earlier flight existed, of course, they couldn’t remember weeks later, so it was to make Jessup nervous, because he “doctored the log books” and made the flight disappear. He was good at covering his tracks, but he slipped up with his conflicting testimony.
    I also don’t know I believe someone like Markinson kills himself over that. Like if they had reworked that story o where Jessup had Markinson killed, or Markinson was in deep with the mob or his wife was leaving him, it’s just... it’s weird how his character arc goes that he does contradictory actions and then kills himself, it’s just bizarre. Like being guilty that an enlisted man was killed is one thing, but in actuality this would’ve been way below his responsibility level, he didn’t give the order, etc etc etc I don’t see someone like him killing them selves. It would be like if a coworker of mine got in a fatal accident because of something I’ve been complaining about him or others doing, I ain’t eating my gun over that shit. I just think that arc could’ve been better
  • asmallcat said:

    asmallcatA_Ron_Hubbardadobo1148cdrivetelephoneofmadness
  • seanray said:
    @emnofseattle Markensen felt guilty that he didn’t stand up stronger for Santiago in that initial meeting with Jessup and Kendrick. He ate his pistol because in his mind, testifying couldn’t make it right. Nothing could. I think it goes back to the theme of honor. He lost his, and in his mind, he couldn’t get it back no matter what because he failed to save Santiago.

    the flight- there was an earlier flight, but Jessup has the power to delete all records of it, and Kaffee brought in the ground crew in hope of proving an earlier flight existed, of course, they couldn’t remember weeks later, so it was to make Jessup nervous, because he “doctored the log books” and made the flight disappear. He was good at covering his tracks, but he slipped up with his conflicting testimony.
    I also don’t know I believe someone like Markinson kills himself over that. Like if they had reworked that story o where Jessup had Markinson killed, or Markinson was in deep with the mob or his wife was leaving him, it’s just... it’s weird how his character arc goes that he does contradictory actions and then kills himself, it’s just bizarre. Like being guilty that an enlisted man was killed is one thing, but in actuality this would’ve been way below his responsibility level, he didn’t give the order, etc etc etc I don’t see someone like him killing them selves. It would be like if a coworker of mine got in a fatal accident because of something I’ve been complaining about him or others doing, I ain’t eating my gun over that shit. I just think that arc could’ve been better

    @emnofseattle, honor can be a very difficult thing to understand.  Some people take it very seriously and they feel if they have brought shame or dishonor to themselves or family, then they see no other way but to end their own life.  While others can just live with it and put it past them.  The way I interpret Markensen is that he wanted to make the situation right.  At first, he wanted to spare Santiago and just get him off the base.  However, when he was overruled and couldn't/didn't stop it and then it resulted in a death, he felt great shame/sadness about it.  He goes AWOL because he doesn't want to be part of the cover up anymore and doesn't want to have to follow an order that is given to him by Jessup to help further cover things up.  Markensen then shows back up to help Caffey try to get Jessup because Markensen knows that Jessup is guilty to an extent.  When Caffey tells Markensen that he needs to testify and is going to have to, this is when Markensen can't continue because he can't face Jessup face to face anymore and further bring dishonor to himself and the Corp by not following chain of command.  That's my opinion on that part of the story.
    seanray
  • "Is the Colonel's underwear a matter of national security?"

    " Don't I feel like the fuckin asshole"

    "She doesn't have any points she often has no points, that's part of her charm"

    " Strenuously object, is that how works, objection, overruled, oh I strenuously object, maybe we should stop and reconsider"

    these are a few of my favorite lines, next to Glengary Glen Ross, A Few Good Men both are utterly quotable 

  • Dummy said:
    asmallcat said:

    This is absolutely hysterical
  • AjasAjas Seattle, WA
    edited August 2018
    I'm only halfway through this podcast, but y'all have voiced confusion about 3 different points which are important to the movie--

    1) You thought TC plays the same character in Top Gun and A Few Good Men

    2) Why is he so confused about courtroom procedure?

    3) Why'd he get picked for this case?? 

    The plot-twist is-- in AFGM, he was the armed forces' biggest deal-maker, purposefully with no courtroom experience.  That's the whole point.  That's why he got picked, and had no idea what to do in an actual courtroom. 

    In Top Gun, Maverick was an accomplished pilot who climbed the ranks despite a disgraced (but actually confidentially talented) father.  These are almost polar opposites... Just like being picked for this case and being selected for Top Gun are polar opposites, but I can see how using the same actor to portray both characters causes confusion
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