Overreaction or righteous indignation ?

For the record I wasn’t crazy about The Last Jedi but this may be a parsec too far for me

http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/petition-last-jedi-removed-star-wars-canon-closing-goal/
Freiberg
«1

Comments

  • amyja89amyja89 Oxford, England
    edited September 2018
    For the record, I loved The Last Jedi, and I love Star Wars, but maybe I was never going to be part of this anti crowd because I have never been a Luke Skywalker fan, never felt ownership or connection with him, tbh had given up on him half way through Empire because of his constant whining.

    The level of entitlement of these fanboys (and girls) is off the chain. Remake an entire movie the way that you want it to be made, because? Why? You say so? Chill the fuck out. 
    FreibergKingKobraMurderbearDummyTravis
  • Ikr, Franchises like Star Trek, XMen, and spiderman get rebranded and reinvented all the time, 
  • Redoing the prequels seems like a more worthy goal.
    amyja89
  • Internet petitions have always seemed odd to me, have they ever accomplished anything?
  • edited September 2018
    I think we discussed this in the TLJ thread when it was first going around. This won’t happen, so it’s basiclsly just making the rounds now and again to rile up folks. 
  • CretanBullCretanBull Toronto
    edited September 2018
    IMO The Last Jedi was better than Force Awakens.  Judged as a movie, Force Awakens is decent but the way it absolutely shit all over the Star Wars legacy makes it a steaming pile of bile IMO. 
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Yeah the cynicism in Force Awakens was off the charts.

    I don't think these petitions show entitlement as much as naivety.
    CretanBullTravis
  • Then how is Marvel able to satisfy fanboys/girls as well as a wider audience? Are the fanboy/girls not wedded to the source material like Star Wars? Also could anyone foresee a time when episodes IV, V, And VI get remade? Maybe 10, 20, 30 years from now? 
  • adobo1148 said:
    Then how is Marvel able to satisfy fanboys/girls as well as a wider audience? Are the fanboy/girls not wedded to the source material like Star Wars? Also could anyone foresee a time when episodes IV, V, And VI get remade? Maybe 10, 20, 30 years from now? 
    They don’t always satisfy them. There are more than a few that have been disliked. While it’s “possible” eventually they could be remade, I’m not sure it would be anytime soon. 
  • For a lot of the mainline characters where legacy and source material matter, Marvel have sometimes had 50+ years of talented comics writers and artists essentially storyboarding movies for them.  They can pick the top 5% of those stories and produce them or at least something in the vein of those stories.  They also haven't always hit it out of the park (Hulks, some of the Spidermans, Avengers 2, Iron Man 2, apparently Age of Apokolips....)  

    adobo1148 said:
    Then how is Marvel able to satisfy fanboys/girls as well as a wider audience? Are the fanboy/girls not wedded to the source material like Star Wars? Also could anyone foresee a time when episodes IV, V, And VI get remade? Maybe 10, 20, 30 years from now? 

    asmallcat
  • While I generally agree Marvel has had some clunkers but even those haven’t  been as universally panned (by fans)the way Last Jedi has been. Maybe cause the MCU is recent and Star Wars has such a legacy to follow.  Star Wars seem to take greater “ownership” of the franchise that comic book fans do with Marvel. I’m not that invested in either case, i just find the psychology interesting, the way the fans of pop culture take a sense of ownership over the franchises they patronize. 
  • adobo1148 said:
    While I generally agree Marvel has had some clunkers but even those haven’t  been as universally panned (by fans)the way Last Jedi has been. Maybe cause the MCU is recent and Star Wars has such a legacy to follow.  Star Wars seem to take greater “ownership” of the franchise that comic book fans do with Marvel. I’m not that invested in either case, i just find the psychology interesting, the way the fans of pop culture take a sense of ownership over the franchises they patronize. 
    I would say the 1st Hulks, AAoU, a few of the spider-man movies, Thor 2, Iron Man 3, and others have been “panned”. The “problem” is that there is at least one new movie a year so instead of living with it, there is always one right around the corner to focus on. MCU has done a great job at controlling the story and even if there is a “bad” one, it still keeps to the story. 


    Those that don’t like TLJ are the loudest, those that do like it, just don’t participate in the conversations anymore as it’s just a flat circle of debate. Every time a new “hate m” discussion comes up, I just let out a big sighh take a quick look to see if something new has been brought to the table and move along. As you said there could be some recency bias, which also has some nolstalgia grasping involved. I’ve seen posts from those that were younger when the prequels were released say they love/like them, much like those who were there for the release of the originals say the same thing. We come up to current times and I see people who have kids say that they really liked these two recent entries, but older folks tend to dislike it. I don’t know these days I just ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Also... The word "canon" is thrown around far too freely nowadays.

    Welcome to nerd culture becoming pop culture.
  • Redoing the prequels seems like a more worthy goal.
    Or re-do the original trilogy to be all about midichlorians
    TravisPreservedKillick
  • CapeGabe said:
    Redoing the prequels seems like a more worthy goal.
    Or re-do the original trilogy to be all about midichlorians
    Maybe get more into why the force is better than an x wings targeting computer 
  • adobo1148 said:
    While I generally agree Marvel has had some clunkers but even those haven’t  been as universally panned (by fans)the way Last Jedi has been. Maybe cause the MCU is recent and Star Wars has such a legacy to follow.  Star Wars seem to take greater “ownership” of the franchise that comic book fans do with Marvel. I’m not that invested in either case, i just find the psychology interesting, the way the fans of pop culture take a sense of ownership over the franchises they patronize. 
    You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. 
    amyja89
  • TravisTravis CA
    edited September 2018
    amyja89 said:


    The level of entitlement of these fanboys (and girls) is off the chain. Remake an entire movie the way that you want it to be made, because? Why? You say so? Chill the fuck out. 
    Exactly my feelings. Just because you're a fan of something doesn't give you ownership rights. I find it particularly disdainful because I'm sure a high percentage of these people are the same assholes who treated to girl who played Rose so terribly. It must be, because I feel a bit more of a visceral frustration with this notion than I do in similar fan whining, but this actually kind of pisses me off. I am one who appreciates embracing your inner child to enjoy things, but this is a time to grow the fuck up. You don't like something, fine, but you didn't make shit. Quit pretending that you own anything, and quit bombarding people with your vitriol because you didn't like a goddamn movie.

    I'm also not saying not to be critical. Run up to the top of the mountain and scream out that the movie sucks. That is totally everyone's right, but be reasonable about it. Those segments of Star Wars fans are WAY too entitled and just vicious. 
    amyja89
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    @Travis Have you considered they could be naive? I'm pushing back against saying TLJ critics who are acting strangely are the Rose haters.
    Travis
  • TravisTravis CA
    edited September 2018
    JaimieT said:
    @Travis Have you considered they could be naive? I'm pushing back against saying TLJ critics who are acting strangely are the Rose haters.
    Certainly some. Definitely, but I would extend a similar (though not nearly as harsh) sentiment to them too. I think it's important to keep in check, particularly as things like the internet feed our senses of "empowerment" that people are still just arm-chairing things. I like that @amyja89 lead with the word "entitled" because it is the key to this. I appreciate the notion of something that informs a big piece of your childhood and even a big piece of your life if you're a "next level" devotee, letting you down and how frustrating that can be, but as an example that might bring it home for my life experience, just because Frank Black's records don't really interest me anymore doesn't mean that I have the right to tell him that he is doing it wrong. I haven't earned that by buying his records for years and going to his concerts and buying merch. All that I have earned is precisely what I have purchased. His music is still HIS music. The internet gives me the option of doing so, but it would make me an asshole. There is a sometimes blurry line between criticism and just being mean, and I acknowledge that it can get pretty grey, but this is an instance of a collective within the fanbase acting like injured children, and the inner component that may contain actual children aside, they should grow up. All that happened is a movie came out that wasn't the movie they wanted. Just because something is meaningful to you doesn't mean that you own it, and there is something about Star Wars fans that rises to the top of this sort of entitlement, I guess that is why I react more harshly towards it. Maybe it's also a little more personal to me because I love Star Wars too and I don't like that they can't be better, or even find that level that most fan bases fall into and not be at the top of this particular pile. Maybe that makes me naive too.

    Naive or no, focusing on them again, (and I do accept that not all of these people are the ones who have really gone that extra mile that the ones who harassed the actress who played Rose did, of course) these people are still behaving poorly, and they should check their reality.
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Travis said:
    JaimieT said:
    @Travis Have you considered they could be naive? I'm pushing back against saying TLJ critics who are acting strangely are the Rose haters.
    Certainly some. Definitely, but I would extend a similar (though not nearly as harsh) sentiment to them too. I think it's important to keep in check, particularly as things like the internet feed our senses of "empowerment" that people are still just arm-chairing things. I like that @amyja89 lead with the word "entitled" because it is the key to this. I appreciate the notion of something that informs a big piece of your childhood and even a big piece of your life if you're a "next level" devotee letting you down and how frustrating that can be, but as an example that might bring it home for my life experience, just because Frank Black's records don't really interest me anymore doesn't mean that I have the right to tell him that he is doing it wrong. I haven't earned that by buying his records for years and going to his concerts and buying merch. All that I have earned is precisely what I have purchased. His music is still HIS music. The internet gives me the option of doing so, but it would make me an asshole. There is a sometimes blurry line between criticism and just being mean, and I acknowledge that it can get pretty grey, but this is an instance of a collective within the fanbase acting like injured children, and the inner component that may contain actual children aside, they should grow up. Naive or no (and I do accept that not all of these people are the ones who have really gone that extra mile that the ones who harassed the actress who played Rose did, of course) these people are still behaving poorly, and they should check their reality.

    Yeah, I understand how the concept of entitlement could be at play here.

    I just know a surprising amount of people don't know how the industry works. And seeing a petition might mislead them into thinking the industry works this way, and they sign it because it can't hurt. "Well they should stop to think how offensive that is to the artists who worked on TLJ," you might say, and well, TLJ is part of a nebulous, impersonal franchise, as opposed to Frank Black's music.
    Travis
  • TravisTravis CA
    edited September 2018
    That's totally fair, and I completely accept your scenario. I guess I just see it as a symbol because of my complete lack of shock when I saw that this happened. Of course they did that. You know? There is something systemically wrong with Star Wars fandom in this light. There are way too many zealots, and they are way too "zealotous." I guess that's my thing. This petition was just all too perfect of a perfect symbol to launch out at.
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited September 2018
    I'm sure Disney wanted Star Wars because of the degree of fan engagement.  There was essentially no major media productions for over a decade, and the fan interested really burned bright.  I personally think the people who believe that TFA and TLJ are executed to the same degree as ANH or ESB are mistaken, forgetting all the supposed political/SJW issues, just focusing on what is happening in the movies.

    I think Disney may have to worry about being in the phase of Star Trekifying their property- where a really popular property survives uneven movies, is resurgent with a fairly great period (TNG) and then peters out over years of mediocreish followup (DS9 excepted IMO).  I don't think we've had a resurgent period for Star Wars, misstep and mediocre have pretty much followed the original trilogy as far as movies go. 
    JaimieT
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Travis said:
    That's totally fair, and I completely accept your scenario. I guess I just see it as a symbol because of my complete lack of shock when I saw that this happened. Of course they did that. You know? There is something systemically wrong with Star Wars fandom in this light. There are way too many zealots, and they are way too "zealotous." I guess that's my thing. This petition was just all too perfect of a perfect symbol to launch out at.

    "Way too many" yes, but it might be a small group. This survey has a big number attached to it. I think this sort of thing can become a limiting belief (or self-fulfilling prophecy) if one isn't careful.

    I struggle with this with the Rick & Morty fans lol.
    Travis
  • @JaimieT I've done some reflecting on all of this and I fear that you've caught me taking part in sort of "hot take culture." You are right in what you are saying and I am overly generalizing. Truth of it is, if I met someone and they told me that they signed this petition (who knows, depending on how widespread it is I may know a person or two who could have) I wouldn't go in at them with some tirade or think any less of them or anything. I suppose if I didn't know them I might ask them why and depending on what that uncovered... but I get it. I have overgeneralized. Definitely.

    I've heard that about Rick and Morty fans. Don't know anything first hand, but I've heard it a few times. 
    JaimieT
  • Just to see what these folks are up against. TLJ is the top selling Blu-ray of 2018:
    https://www.the-numbers.com/home-market/bluray-sales/2018

    Its sold over 3 million copies (second was Black Panther another “controversial” movie). It’s also the number 8 domestic and 11 worldwide in box office (non adjusted). To say the idea of a company removing that kind of return from the franchise is kind of ridiculous (IMO). While these are “just numbers” it seems thosebwilling to support it at this time outweigh the more vocal of those who disliked it. This has no bearing on if it was a “good movie”, just that the numbers still am against this being “atrocious childhood killing movie”. 



  • Eh, seems like TLJ experienced a significant dip.  Not as bad as the prequels, but still there.  Revenge of the Sith outperformed Attack of the Clones, so we'll see what happens with the 3rd film.  


    Adjusted for ticket-price inflation


    2Star Wars1977178,119,600$1,651,168,692
       
    13The Empire Strikes Back198098,180,600$910,134,162

    16Return of the Jedi198394,059,400$871,930,638

    18Star Wars: Episode I – The Phantom Menace199990,312,700$837,198,729

    98Star Wars: Episode II – Attack of the Clones200253,468,500$495,652,995

    11Star Wars: The Force Awakens2015108,115,100$1,002,226,977

    43Star Wars: The Last Jedi201767,594,900$626,604,723
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    @Doctor_Nick ; Where is Revenge of the Sith? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited September 2018
    68Star Wars: Episode III – Revenge of the Sith200559,324,600$549,939,042    

    Interesting to me is that the Lord of the Rings built business with every movie.
  • Eh, seems like TLJ experienced a significant dip.  Not as bad as the prequels, but still there.  Revenge of the Sith outperformed Attack of the Clones, so we'll see what happens with the 3rd film.  


    Adjusted for ticket-price inflation


    2Star Wars1977178,119,600$1,651,168,692
       
    13The Empire Strikes Back198098,180,600$910,134,162

    16Return of the Jedi198394,059,400$871,930,638

    18Star Wars: Episode I – The Phantom Menace199990,312,700$837,198,729

    98Star Wars: Episode II – Attack of the Clones200253,468,500$495,652,995

    11Star Wars: The Force Awakens2015108,115,100$1,002,226,977

    43Star Wars: The Last Jedi201767,594,900$626,604,723
    Taking “sequels” (4-5) (1-2) (7-8)

    this is based off of non adjusted numbers and are estimates:

    1-2 ~36% drop
    4-5 ~30% drop
    7-8 ~35% drop

    So the dip was more than the originals, but less than the prequels, which seems fitting I guess. Historically it’s right about inline with the others. 
Sign In or Register to comment.