4.10 Winner (Season Finale)

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  • DeeDee Adelaide
    Hunkulese said:
    Frakkin T said:
    Hunkulese said:


    I'm not saying Walt wasn't awful since he is defined by his actions, but he at least in his own head, his actions were necessary. 
    Except they weren't. Remember when he admitted to Skyler finally that he did it because he liked it? It was always about Walt's pride, never about the family.
    That's part of what makes Walt a fascinating character. He didn't come to that realization until everything came crashing down.
    Walt wasn’t fascinating. Walt was the same angry entitled man you see in every second drama show or movie. Jesse was by far the more interesting character, as he was the one who struggled with the choices he and Walt made. 
    Kela15
  • I mean Walt sold poison that ruined families, and then kept doing it long after he had the money he felt he needed even before stuff started to go wrong, and killed people direcly, etc.

    But, you know, Jimmy has so far sold burner phones to criminals and made some people feel really bad.
    Dee
  • Hunkulese said:
    gguenot said:
    Hunkulese said:
    Frakkin T said:
    Hunkulese said:


    I'm not saying Walt wasn't awful since he is defined by his actions, but he at least in his own head, his actions were necessary. 
    Except they weren't. Remember when he admitted to Skyler finally that he did it because he liked it? It was always about Walt's pride, never about the family.
    That's part of what makes Walt a fascinating character. He didn't come to that realization until everything came crashing down.
    Goal post move. Fascinating =/= good 
    I never said Walt was a good guy. He just had far more redeeming qualities than Jimmy who is pretty much 100% selfish dirtbag. Walt has a ton more layers and dimensions to discuss than Jimmy.

    You can disagree with me about Walt and that's fine. But you have to at least admit there's an argument there to have. What's the argument for Jimmy not being about Jimmy and only Jimmy?
    Fair. I don’t hate Walt and I really like his character, I would just never put him in the “good guy” camp
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited October 2018
    Jimmy also does feel regret for things he does at times. Feels bad about some of the consequences of his actions, like wanting to help Huel get free after what Huel did for him. Wanting to help repair the relationship of the one old lady after he drove all her friends away. He also took care of Chuck for years until he found out it was Chuck that was backstabbing him.
    Dee
  • Did anyone else get the thought during the cold open that it was going to turn into Chuck completely taking the spotlight and basically pushing his brother off stage.  As soon as he got up there and started singing and then it turned to him grabbing the microphone from Jimmy I thought for sure this was going to be another time where Chuck was a complete asshole to his brother.  As soon as Chuck got on stage and made it clear he could sing very well I thought oh god this is going to turn horrible for Jimmy once again.
    AnominalDemic
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    It made me think about when exactly Chuck's condition started. Did they ever say what exactly it was? (They probably did I just don't remember) I had always thought it was after Rebecca left but this was after that based on Kim and Jimmy talking about how he "needs to get back out there." I was really worried this scene was going to end with some huge blowup and Chuck spiraling out.

    For the record, I'm glad they didn't do that. As the scene was playing and I had that thought, I immediately thought of Hector's bell and how we didn't need another origin story this season. Also, I loved this scene. I had a smile on my face almost the entire time. It was incredibly nice to have a scene with him where I wasn't directly thinking about #FuckChuck
  • Natter CastNatter Cast San Francisco, CA
    Live casting the podcast:

    * On Chuck and Jimmy: yes, Chuck thinks Jimmy is a chimp with a machine gun and he undermined him at HHM, but all that happened post Jimmy getting his license. It could be that Chuck has reservations but is ultimately on Jimmy's side here and then sees how he practices law at HHM and it sours his reluctant support. And it's probably also the case that Chuck's electricity allergy and the breakdown of his marriage exacerbated his negative attitude toward Jimmy.

    * "How did it look?"/"How did it feel?" is actor/director patter .. I'm betting that The Villigan uses it on the set :)

    * On Gus always being a psychopath: this never bothered me because it was clear he was a psychopath when he killed Victor. No way an inexperienced killer would be able to do that. 

    * On the insider cast last week, Vince Gilligan said you should never choose to have characters do something stupid just because the plot needs it .. any stupidity has to be earned. I had this in mind with the Werner scene. Werner was established as cautious, thorough and intelligent. All that's out the window because plot?

    * Someone needs to paint Jim like a French girl .. #MyHeartWillGoOn

    * The Gale scene is pure fan service .. I think the only thing it establishes is that the German team has been sent away

    * On Jimmy gloating after the speech, this is what we call a "Sons of Anarchy" moment .. on that show, the Sons used to openly discuss murder, gun running and drug dealing on the steps of the police station 
    Kela15
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited October 2018
    (After listening to the podcast)

    Regarding the opening scene. In season one, it was a shock that Chuck was the one working against Jimmy, and Howard wasn't the bad guy. It was a shock for us, and a shock for Jimmy. Chuck conned the conman. I do think what we saw in the opening was genuine, but whether it was or not, whatever happened there would have to be convincing to Jimmy that he had a loving brother. And with the scenes last season with Chuck trying to convince his ex-wife that he was okay, I can totally see the type of personality there of someone who'd cook someone pancakes for breakfast. I do think that was the real Chuck in that moment in time, and I do think there's been enough to establish that kind of a personality that used to be there.

    As for Werner, when it comes to the job, Werner knows his stuff. I've met plenty of people that are total professionals on the job, but are kind of a mess socially, or are just the dumbest people when it comes to common sense. Or the opposite. Some people who have their social game on point, but there is no amount of money you could pay me to work alongside them. That's what's happened with Werner. His professional side is top notch. He knows his stuff, and he has the smarts where it counts to do the job. Enough so that not just Mike, but Gus as well, was convinced he was the right guy. But he doesn't have the street smarts, or the common sense smarts, to even just shut up and not talk to the guys' at the bar. Combine that with thinking Mike was his buddy instead of his manager, and that just allowed Werner's bad tendencies to come out even more. So in the end, Mike realizes that Werner isn't who he thought he was (Just like Kimmy realizes that Jimmy isn't who he thought he was.)

    I like Jim's point that this episode was all about trust, on both the Mike and Jimmy arcs. Pretty much the whole season was about the loss of trust. (Plus the Nacho stuff which was only a half arc and hasn't been resolved)

    Edit: The Winner takes it all.... Maybe that song fits the theme of the season? On the surface it seems like a good choice? But when you look deeper it's totally not what you thought. Just like Werner to Mike, and Jimmy to Kimmy.

    Also 100% are with Jim's take on Kim's dual purpose. She was constantly giving him all kinds of weird looks through the episode. Trying to look and see what she knows is in there. Which just makes the end so brutal cause she was wrong.

    Edit 2: What Mike did at the end solidifies Mike with Gus. Gus told him he wanted to hire Ike for a job right? Not a permanent position? Gus probably would have found a way to keep him even if the plan went smoothly, but now he doesn't have to. We haven't been shown that Gus can afford to lose Mike right now. I guess they could make me believe Victor was capable enough with figure scenes, but they haven't shown that up to this point. Gus was ready to just intercept Werner .. At the airport or something?... But Mike said, and demonstrated, that he would be able to find him even sooner than that. 
    MurderbearDnowelshDemic
  • does anyone else wonder why Jimmy who obviously has some cash cannot spend 1-2K on a decent car? he can spend 23K on an event but still driving that $200 POS. 
    MurderbearNervousRhinoKela15
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited October 2018
    I think he was initially low on cash until the cell phone thing... but then at that point when you're selling cell phones in shady areas do you really want to get a nice car while selling phones out of that nice trunk?

    Edit: Oh duh. He was saving his money to get an office for him and Kim. 
    Murderbear
  • Pretty much loved the season.  I like how the show takes it’s time. It feels connected to the breaking bad universe but feels different.  I’m fine with a slow moving plot.  Excited for next se@son, which hasn’t been confirmed as the final season? 
  • Poor Jimmy; he got all the way to Mount Doom, but he just couldn’t part with the Ring. 

    Regarding the choice of “The Winner Takes It All:” The irony is that almost every aspiring "Winner" in BB/BCS ends up losing it all after having taking short-lived ownership of his particular it. WTIA is a song that starts low enough that almost anyone can sing it, but quickly, it rises past the point where only an excellent singer can finish a verse. The Villagang gives Jimmy a song that is clearly beyond his average capacity; one which Chuck, naturally, can sing with ease. I’m not suggesting that Kim is exploiting the subtext; from a karaoke standpoint she just signs Jimmy up for something slightly less rigorous than Bohemian Rhapsody, probably just for the entertainment value of watching him try to hit the high notes. Although, if she does so believing that Jimmy is sitting on some heretofore undisplayed talent that will be revealed in the performance, it would be poignantly consistent with her character. 

    We hear Jimmy’s personal reprise of “The Winner Takes It All” in his “The fix is in” speech to Christy, the shoplifting scholarship applicant and future Kim Wexler client. Finally, watching the victorious, nascent Saul Goodman walk away, Kim, finally seeing herself among the rubes, is left to ponder a winner who takes far more than he gives, and Jimmy slips below the horizon not realizing what winning it all has just cost him. Again. 

    Giovanni
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    I agree with Dan from Philly. Nacho was the most interesting and they just forgot about him towards the end, other than a cursory, “Oh, Nacho is rich but sad” moment, and it doesn’t seem realistic that Gus would have let Mike live AND be still trusting him as his 2IC in Breaking Bad. 
    NervousRhinoKela15
  • Dee said:
    I agree with Dan from Philly. Nacho was the most interesting and they just forgot about him towards the end, other than a cursory, “Oh, Nacho is rich but sad” moment, and it doesn’t seem realistic that Gus would have let Mike live AND be still trusting him as his 2IC in Breaking Bad. 
    i think Mike killing Werner was bascially the "final initiation" for Gus. Mike took care of business and is now superlab deep into crime 
    Dee
  • HunkuleseHunkulese Québec, Canada
    edited October 2018
    Dee said:
    I agree with Dan from Philly. Nacho was the most interesting and they just forgot about him towards the end, other than a cursory, “Oh, Nacho is rich but sad” moment, and it doesn’t seem realistic that Gus would have let Mike live AND be still trusting him as his 2IC in Breaking Bad. 
    If you're running a criminal empire and murder everyone who makes any kind of mistake, you won't have much of a criminal empire left. Gus sees that Mike is as meticulous as he is, and even Gus makes mistakes.

    Everything is also going pretty peachy for Gus at the moment, so he wouldn't be in the mindset to have a Victor like reaction.
    Murderbear
  • Thank god Jim liked this episode. Was bummed I was potentially gonna have to turn off the cast if it was 100% negative. Appreciate both perspectives.
    Dnowelsh
  • About the supposed security continuity inconsistency, wasn't it only so tight where the germans were staying?  I thought they drove to work in a sealed truck. You probably don't want any recorded footage from inside your meth lab, since only trusted persons should work there. The cameras came on as a power play of Gus against Walter.

    Are we sure we know the full extend of Werners plan? He already had a good chunk of the money since he offered to give it back. Maybe he planed to run with his wife for good and the note was just a distraction to take pressure off the chase and buy time to come up with a real plan. If he had figured out the location of the lab, he could have even tried to negotiate about the release of his crew. I wish we had a scene where Werner took advantage of Mike and got his phone to get the GPS coordinates of the lab, that would have been a nice callforward to the breaking bad barrels.

    They already know the Matrix, I'm getting old. :-)
    Murderbear
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    @Schlupp Just finished the podcast and I was coming here to write almost the same thing! It makes complete sense Gus would be reticent to have cameras in his meth superlab.

    And while I agree with the guys that the Gale scene was entirely unnecessary, I thought it was funny that A.Ron (I think) wasn't sure why Gus denied him the opportunity to whip up a quick batch. I mean, could be the fact that you have a group of foreign nationals upstairs that while they know they are building something super secretive, they probably don't know they are building a meth superlab. No point in risking blowing that until it's done and they are gone.
    Schlupp
  • I read the whole Gale scene as contrasting the dire situation with Werner. Gus was seriously stressed and pissed at Mike, probably still considering who has to pay for the fuckups and if he needs to go to open war against the Salamancas.  Even Gale with his always sunny nature recognized it as a bad time to make any suggestions. Gus surely doesn't like it when somebody forces his hand and messes up his schedule.  Gale might have saved the german crew though since he told Gus that he is ready to cook, bringing in a whole new crew might take to much time.
  • After listening to the podcast, Jim, and his observations on 'trust', has now taken the 'smart one' title.  Last week it was A.Ron.
    Dnowelsh
  • I know everyone hates the Lalo climbing in the ceiling scene.  But I want to point out that there was a pop machine right under where he entered the ceiling.  So it wasn't as impossible as the guys made it sound.  
  • I think The Winner Takes it All May not entirely be thematic with the big exception of the last line Jimmy says before the end of the cold open. 

    “But I was a fool, playing by the rules.”

    You will notice only Jimmy sings that line in the bed and then pauses as if thinking about it. That line sums up Jimmy pretty well. 
    Murderbear
  • The BCS finale, Winner, was very enjoyable, but I never really liked the Germans storyline. The only purpose it served was to give Mike something to do. I think they should have brought Mike more into the Nacho & Salamancas story. I thoroughly enjoyed watching Jimmy turn full-on Saul - they nailed it. Either of these last two episodes could be submitted for Bob Odenkirk's Emmy consideration. I feel next season we need a time jump, more flash-forward scenes or lots more Gene timeline scenes. Since we know Jimmy McGill basically no longer exists, they need to push the story forward at a much faster pace. Also, I can't wait to see Lalo again. Did either of you get a "Cohen Brothers" vibe from the Western Union office scenes? I could totally see that happening in a Cohen brothers movie.
  • I don't think they're significantly time jumping for quite some time.  They got rid of Michael McKean, I think they're going to hold on to Rhea Seehorn and Kim as long as they can, I'm not sure how many episodes of pure unfettered Saul they really want to  do.

    Tscott123 said:
    The BCS finale, Winner, was very enjoyable, but I never really liked the Germans storyline. The only purpose it served was to give Mike something to do. I think they should have brought Mike more into the Nacho & Salamancas story. I thoroughly enjoyed watching Jimmy turn full-on Saul - they nailed it. Either of these last two episodes could be submitted for Bob Odenkirk's Emmy consideration. I feel next season we need a time jump, more flash-forward scenes or lots more Gene timeline scenes. Since we know Jimmy McGill basically no longer exists, they need to push the story forward at a much faster pace. Also, I can't wait to see Lalo again. Did either of you get a "Cohen Brothers" vibe from the Western Union office scenes? I could totally see that happening in a Cohen brothers movie.

  • I know I'm late on this, but I just listened to the podcast, and I wanted to add my two cents on the feedback about the camera in the super lab in breaking bad versus the cameras on the engineers. 

    I don't think this is an inaccuracy. Gus didn't have cameras in the super lab until Walt forced him to because they were doing obviously illegal things down there that could be easily traced back to Gus (this actually becomes a plot point later on...magnets, bitch). The engineers are not doing anything obviously illegal. If the DEA got a hold of the footage of these guys in a warehouse, they would still have to somehow prove they were being kept there to build a meth superlab. The footage itself is not damning, whereas in breaking bad it definitely would be. 

    Also youre talking about trying to keep track of like 12 German Nationals, who speak a different language versus trying to pick track of Walt and Jessie. You need the cameras in order to watch everyone. But Walt and Jessie, obstensibly would be easier to keep track of without having video proof of their meth cooking operation. 
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    edited October 2018
    Dnowelsh said:
    I know everyone hates the Lalo climbing in the ceiling scene.  But I want to point out that there was a pop machine right under where he entered the ceiling.  So it wasn't as impossible as the guys made it sound.  
    Do people really hate that? I thought it was pretty inspired. Reminded me of when Omar somehow survives that fall in The Wire, but you never see how he did it.

    Just occurred to me though that the clerk has presumably been killed, or at least knocked out, and Mike is on tape having been there just before. 
  • Finally got chance to watch ep 9 and 10 and while i wasn't overly impressed with the season as a whole, i loved the final interaction between Jimmy and Kim as Jimmy confesses that it was all an act and you just watch Kim's reaction and realize what a monster Jimmy is.  That was just brilliant.

    As for Mike and Werner, as soon as Werner took off, you knew he was done.  First off, it really doesn't make sense for him to take off like he did.  I guess the person that mentioned previously in this thread that Werner felt that him and Mike were friends (as oppose to boss/supervisor and employee) and was relying on that to save him is the only real logic/rationale behind his action.  Because, otherwise, once you get in bed with the mob, you're not getting out that easy and Werner really should have known this.  But I do understand that part of all of this is that Werner just because stir crazy thinking that he took an 8 month contract and then after 1 year realizing that you're only 50% done and it's going to be another year before you're able to go home. 

    Lastly, for Lalo and Mike, it does seem like a plot error that Lalo instantly starts tailing Mike so quickly without really knowing who Mike is.  Of course we as the audience know Mike's importance but there's no way Lalo makes that connection so quickly (not unless they want to say that Nacho told him something about Mike off screen, but i think i would have wanted to see that scene).  I can say that I buy Lalo doing this all on this own as oppose to passing Mike off to someone else.  Also, for Lalo's tactics (killing a random person, although, it's possible he just tied him up or knocked the guy out unconscious, and crashing into someone during daylight doesn't seem that far-fetched to me as he feels that he's above or beyond the law anyways so he'll do as he pleases and not really about repercussions as he'll take care of it as it pops up.  He's definitely an interesting character but since he's no where to be found in Breaking Bad, I'm going to just assume that he's going to get killed off somehow by someone and that's why we see Tuco taking care of Hector and no mention of Lalo. 

  • JoshuaHeterJoshuaHeter Omaha, NE
    edited October 2018
    Re: Aron’s problem with Kim picking Abba’s “The Winner Takes it All” at kareoke.

    Despite the questionable theme / lyrics of the song, I didn’t have a problem with the fact that Kim selected it because I think there’s an obvious explanation. I was born in 1981 and there must be dozens of pop-songs from the 80’s and 90’s that a) I know of, b) I *kind of think* I know what that they are about, but c) I’m actually (as it turns out) wrong about them.

    Given Kim’s age, it’s totally plausible that she’s heard the song a time or two, thinks it’s about “winning or something”, and picks it because Jimmy is experiencing a big win (becoming a lawyer after years of effort).

    Of course, this becomes even more plausible because... they are at a bar. Jimmy, Kim, and Chuck have all been drinking. Even a beer or two would totally fuel this sort of minor / low stakes mistake.

    Whew... that’s a long-winded defense for a very minor point.
    Garthgou81
  • Garthgou81Garthgou81 Placerville, CA
    Yeah, I had no clue what the song was about. Many songs are ironic in their tune or lyrics. Not everyone is going to know the background or know the real meaning behind a song. Or even care. That was the least of my issues with the episode which I liked much better on the second watch once my expectations reigned in a bit. 
    JoshuaHeter
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