Neil De Grass Tyson.....

HatorianHatorian Dagobah
edited December 2 in General
in today’s age it’s hard to be shocked when any famous person gets these sort of allegations but man..this is a kick in the balls if true. Can’t even count how many kids/people look up to this man. Hope it’s not true but if it is then he’s a real sleazeball given his status/image as such an outstanding citizen of the world. 

https://screenrant.com/neil-degrasse-tyson-cosmos-sexual-misconduct/

EDIT: he commented on the allegations. Not sure what to think...

https://m.facebook.com/notes/neil-degrasse-tyson/on-being-accused/10156870826326613/
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Comments

  • gguenotgguenot CA
    edited December 2
    This sucks. It really really sucks. My default position since #metoo began was to believe the woman/victim, but this one is difficult. I think a thorough investigation would do well for all parties, but on the surface this seems like there should really be consideration given to severity of the offense. This isn’t a Harvey Weinstein type offense. I hope he’s exhonortated, but if proven guilty, should face consequences. 
  • I’ve been avoiding this on purpose. I’m doubling down that the only celebrity at this point that would destroy me is Mr Rogers.   But that was a man who wouldn’t hurt another human because it would cause that person pain. Not someone who tried to avoid hurting other people because it would make him face consequences that would cause himself pain. 

    Having said that:

    We’ve had a culture for over a hundred years of entitlement and predation. It’s not surprising that, even people who are exemplary in others ways, behaved disgusting in what was, at the time, entirely culturally permissible ways. 

    I liken it to go a trash can that was over full with garbage to the point people just flung waste at it without regard. Everyone was doing it, it smelled and even those that flung excrement into it agreed they thought it was wrong. 

    A cultural shift happened, we realized it was unsanitary and disgusting and began cleaning up the mess. 

    But the people who contributed to making the problem as serious as it became are still around, and even if they are now ashamed of the mess they helped to make they need to be accountable to acknowledge it was a mistake and to help clean it up. 
    April_May_JuneHatorian
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    I grew up in the church with alllll the nice men being hypocrites (and the sleezy ones too). I've probably expressed this before, and I know Aron has said something about this and gave me this expression, but I'm innoculated against shock.
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited December 2
    His response is so suspect. These guys really should remain silent or keep their responses fucking short. I don't think innocent people act this way, and I've seen too many liars think details make them safe. There were specific things he wrote that were ridiculous, but I don't feel like dissecting it.
    russkelly
  • JaimieT said:
    His response is so suspect. These guys really should remain silent or keep their responses fucking short. I don't think innocent people act this way, and I've seen too many liars think details make them safe. There were specific things he wrote that were ridiculous, but I don't feel like dissecting it.
    Typically I agree with you on this fact, but I think this kind of person (insanely academic) responds to anything this way. If you told him you liked his tie he would submit a paper about the historical classification of neck wear. 

    Im not affirming nor arguing the validity of anything he said, just that I think this is a more authentic response than a lot of the long winded diatribes of innocence we generally get. 
    telephoneofmadness
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    gjulleen said:
    JaimieT said:
    His response is so suspect. These guys really should remain silent or keep their responses fucking short. I don't think innocent people act this way, and I've seen too many liars think details make them safe. There were specific things he wrote that were ridiculous, but I don't feel like dissecting it.
    Typically I agree with you on this fact, but I think this kind of person (insanely academic) responds to anything this way. If you told him you liked his tie he would submit a paper about the historical classification of neck wear. 

    Im not affirming nor arguing the validity of anything he said, just that I think this is a more authentic response than a lot of the long winded diatribes of innocence we generally get. 

    You could be right. I didn't see his behavior as forgiving of this as much as this explaining his behavior. He seems very narcissistic to me now.
  • There's got to be some kind of middle ground here. Something satisfying both parties' right to be heard. Something that doesn't destroy one person's life outright without an investigation, and recognizes if another person's life was destroyed as a result of mistreatment or harassment. For once I'd like to see both parties (if it's many against one, then one at a time) meet each other in a monitored room and talk out their different perceptions....and come to something close to a resolution for both. Obviously I'm not talking about grievous physical harm and rape.
    I've read Tyson's account but I haven't seen the first person account(s) of his accusers so I have to do more digging. 


    gguenottelephoneofmadnessJoshTheBlack
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited December 2
    Okay one thing that stood out to me...

    The "I welcome inquiry" line, stated a few times.

    Great, but you literally just described every situation so that it can only be a he said / she said thing. There's no inquiry to be done. You're not a fucking idiot, so while you're being so honest how about a little honesty? THAT WAS THE INQUIRY. 

    The illusion that any of these women will get any further here, like he's going to give them a fair shake. He called them all liars or idiots. Maybe while you're being so apologetic about not having a chance to be apologetic you could have a little more tact on the liars and idiots front.

    At best, it reeks of lawyers. I mean at worst too.

    These guys should take a note from the responses of evangelical Christians. Talk about effecting innocence... I could write that shit in my sleep.

    To me, this is a case of ego getting in the way of an airtight defense, which is a shame because ego really ain't his persona, here or otherwise. 
  • I had so much respect for NDT (although I'll never forgive him for demoting Pluto - it will always be a planet to me, lol). 
    Anyway ... this whole thing has really broken my heart.  I would never have expected any of this.    :'(
  • edited December 3
    Adjusting people's clothes to look at their tattoos is rude.

    The wine and cheese thing sounds like the classic situation where someone realizes their friend is attracted to them and feels betrayed, guilty, etc..
    Kate23 said:
    There's got to be some kind of middle ground here. Something satisfying both parties' right to be heard. Something that doesn't destroy one person's life outright without an investigation, and recognizes if another person's life was destroyed as a result of mistreatment or harassment. For once I'd like to see both parties (if it's many against one, then one at a time) meet each other in a monitored room and talk out their different perceptions....and come to something close to a resolution for both. Obviously I'm not talking about grievous physical harm and rape.
    I've read Tyson's account but I haven't seen the first person account(s) of his accusers so I have to do more digging. 


    For me it boils down to: how does a society deal with people who are very good at harming others and covering their tracks? How do you deal with journalists who write articles about an asian basketball player being a "chink in the armor", etc.? As an individual you can boycott them, but I don't know what the solution to these people is for society as a whole.
  • mtron32mtron32 San Diego
    gjulleen said:
    I’ve been avoiding this on purpose. I’m doubling down that the only celebrity at this point that would destroy me is Mr Rogers.   But that was a man who wouldn’t hurt another human because it would cause that person pain. Not someone who tried to avoid hurting other people because it would make him face consequences that would cause himself pain. 

    Having said that:

    We’ve had a culture for over a hundred years of entitlement and predation. It’s not surprising that, even people who are exemplary in others ways, behaved disgusting in what was, at the time, entirely culturally permissible ways. 

    I liken it to go a trash can that was over full with garbage to the point people just flung waste at it without regard. Everyone was doing it, it smelled and even those that flung excrement into it agreed they thought it was wrong. 

    A cultural shift happened, we realized it was unsanitary and disgusting and began cleaning up the mess. 

    But the people who contributed to making the problem as serious as it became are still around, and even if they are now ashamed of the mess they helped to make they need to be accountable to acknowledge it was a mistake and to help clean it up. 
    Forest Whitaker and Sam Jackson are mine, I'll at least peep the trailer if they're in the pic
  • Don't have heroes, apparently.
    telephoneofmadnessgguenotKate23
  • calebthrowercalebthrower South Carolina
    jluzania said:
    Don't have heroes, apparently.
    Reminds me of a line in the song Hoodie Weather by The Wonder Year

    "Growing up means watching my heroes turn human in front of me"
    gguenotlengmo
  • I have no idea what to do with the third accusation, but it was pretty bullshit of NDT to say "Hey, she believes in this weird spiritual shit, so you shouldn't believe anything she says." Completely unnecessary and not a good look. If it's true he needs to be jettisoned from any project giving him celebrity. I need to read more about this one. 

    With the other 2, both are inappropriate, but these to me (as a straight white man, so my opinion on this has a lot less weight than others) seem inappropriate within the realm of "can be corrected by HR without a firing" types of inappropriate rather than "salt the earth" type inappropriate. That being said, when are rich, famous, and/or powerful dudes gonna realize it's never ok to hit on female employees. Jesus. Also, the whole "if I hug you I might want more" is fucking weird and creepy, but again, might just be an awkward guy being awkward.

    Finally, it sure seems like inviting someone back to your house, alone, for wine and cheese, is a move that an average person would see as a romantic gesture. Especially if they didn't have that kind of close friendship. I don't wanna assume anything about anyone's relationship, but if it's not open, NDT's wife may want to talk to him about this. 
    telephoneofmadness
  • asmallcat said:
    Finally, it sure seems like inviting someone back to your house, alone, for wine and cheese, is a move that an average person would see as a romantic gesture. Especially if they didn't have that kind of close friendship.
    I've done stuff like that before without thinking about the politics of it, i.e. being so laid back that I forget how much other people can read into it.

    For me the suspicious part about that story is the "special Native American handshake". Just weird at best.
    asmallcatJaimieT
  • I don't know what to think here.  I'm not excusing his behavior, and celebrities really do need to be aware of their actions.  Please, if I have missed something help me out here.  I have been on the receiving end of creepy behavior, I don't want to be making excuses for people being made to feel uncomfortable or insecure in their employment.  But I have been thinking a lot about this case specifically.

    Some people are just not socially adept.  I listened to an interview with this guy loooong ago (may have been on the Nerdist with Chris Hardwick, I honestly don't remember) and he way saying that he never understood that 'eat like a bird' means that the person doesn't eat a lot.  Because birds eat a lot.  He seemed awkward, kept talking over the (male) host, and was a little- I don't know how else to put it -off.  He started going off on atheism and it was aggressive and again, off putting.  And he was talking to someone who agree with him.

    This was years ago so I may be remembering an exaggerated version of it, but it was enough to color my opinion of him from 'cool science black guy with awesome voice' to 'awkward guy,' and thereafter I found him a little cringey whenever I saw him.  Even in circumstances where it was more scripted, I still felt a little off about him.

    I read his account and am slightly more charitable to him than I would be to most people in these situations because I sincerely think he doesn't read peoples' signals.  You could be broadcasting "I AM UNCOMFORTABLE, PLEASE DO NOT LOOK UNDER MY SLEEVE!" and he wouldn't register anything other than his own interest in seeing if your tattoo includes Pluto.  And he may project that interest onto the person he is interacting with.  His comment about "I may want more" is so socially weird that I'm more tempted to think he's just weird.

    It doesn't make it okay, the object of his interest is still creeped out, but I think it is very slightly different from someone who can feel that you are uncomfortable and either disregards your emotions or even (CK) finds it part of their own gratification.

    So here are my questions, and I am not trolling I honestly want to know if it is okay to have this conversation:

    1. To what extent do we allow people to have emotional disabilities to engage in behavior that otherwise would be utterly inappropriate.  I think we all agree that if someone has Asperger's we will have more sympathy, but what about people who are simply socially in-adept?

    2. If we give allowances for some people how do we determine who?
    DJ_150
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited December 4
    asmallcat said:
    Finally, it sure seems like inviting someone back to your house, alone, for wine and cheese, is a move that an average person would see as a romantic gesture. Especially if they didn't have that kind of close friendship.
    I've done stuff like that before without thinking about the politics of it, i.e. being so laid back that I forget how much other people can read into it.

    For me the suspicious part about that story is the "special Native American handshake". Just weird at best.

    ROFL.

    I forgot about that until now. 

    That should be a meme.

    It's like he's trying to head off her saying "He grabbed my hand and made a suggestive thrusting motion with his thumb rubbing on my wrist." As if that's what's annoying here.
  • mtron32mtron32 San Diego
    I'll add Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson to the list as well, love that guy, please don' be a scumbag Rock
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    mtron32 said:
    I'll add Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson to the list as well, love that guy, please don' be a scumbag Rock

    He better not be, he's our next president!
    Kate23
  • And not Tom Hanks. If he’s a creepy letch I don’t know what I would do.
    mtron32
  • The fact that his ex-wife is his manager (and apparently amazing at it) and they remain good friends is a good sign. 

    mtron32 said:
    I'll add Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson to the list as well, love that guy, please don' be a scumbag Rock

  • Seems like Jerry Seinfeld has the right idea when it comes to interactions with people...






    telephoneofmadnessFlukes
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Hatorian said:
    Seems like Jerry Seinfeld has the right idea when it comes to interactions with people...







    His schtick is to be an asshole, but I actually agree with the idea that the normal thing should be to not hug people who you don't know and don't know you. If we're talking about privilege, there's definitely a beautiful woman privilege to flit in and out of social common sense. But don't tell the incels I said that.
    Kate23Flukes
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    edited December 6
    The past two years or so I've been making a conscious effort to ask permission before I touch someone in like a meet and greet situation. "Of course I'll take a picture with you! Do you mind if I put my arm around you?" No one has ever said no, but I've been thanked for asking by quite a few, and conversely no one has been put off (or gave me the impression anyway) by the additional layer of social interaction.

    It's not really because I'm afraid or anything. It just never hurts to make sure people are comfortable and when in doubt, check in. It sucks to see people you admire fail and stumble, but it's a positive pressure in society that I feel like is going to pay huge dividends in our lifetime. 

    It goes against conventional PR wisdom, but I'd love to see celebrities, especially supposedly thoughtful types like NDT be more open about getting called out and using it as a way to keep growing. I've seen a few who really have handled fucking up really well, but it's few and far between. I'm not sure why it is, because it seems like a honest, humble, and graceful response gets you back on track faster with people than anything. 

    I'm also not sure what to do about socially awkward people. It's a skill that can be developed like any other, but also some people have genuine impairments that make improving difficult, but also some people use this as an excuse not to develop their skills. 
    majjam0770JoshuaHeterJaimieTLordByFlukesmjmullady
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited December 6
    Aron just reminded me of this guy in my childhood church that wore a pin on his shirt that said, "I'm a hug-aholic and I need a fix." My mom would get pressured into hugging him, and there was odd pushback from both that guy and other women when she didn't. He was mostly hugging women of course. I picked up on that vibe (or was defensive of my mom?) and didn't want to hug him either, but of course I always did because I was 14 and weak-willed.

    A fucking pin.

    He gave me a DVD of the director's cut of Wrath of Khan so I forgive him. I still have it too. Uhhhh...
    Flukes
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    edited December 6
    The past two years or so I've been making a conscious effort to ask permission before I touch someone in like a meet and greet situation. "Of course I'll take a picture with you! Do you mind if I put my arm around you?" No one has ever said no, but I've been thanked for asking by quite a few, and conversely no one has been put off (or gave me the impression anyway) of being put off by the additional layer of social interaction.

    It's not really because I'm afraid or anything. It just never hurts to make sure people are comfortable and when in doubt, check in. It sucks to see people you admire fail and stumble, but it's a positive pressure in society that I feel like is going to pay huge dividends in our lifetime. 

    It goes against conventional PR wisdom, but I'd love to see celebrities, especially supposedly thoughtful all types like NDT be more open about getting called out and using it as a way to keep growing. I've seen a few who really have handled fucking up really well, but it's few and far between. I'm not sure why it is, because it seems like a honest, humble, and graceful response gets you back on track faster with people than anything. 

    I'm also not sure what to do about socially awkward people. It's a skill that can be developed like any other, but also some people have genuine impairments that make improving difficult, but also some people use this as an excuse not to develop their 
    It seems like a paradox to me.

    On one hand you never want these things to happen to people. You never want someone to be abused. In a perfect world no one is abused. In a perfect world everyone follows proper personal etiquette.  

    But on the other side we don’t live in a perfect world. Abuse does happen. So can these incidents actually do good and bring awareness and change? if they are going to happen is it better they become public so we can make people aware and try to enact change that these actions are not acceptable?

    i don’t know. But I do agree that the more people speak up and say what is unacceptable the more people will stop that behavior. But it sucks knowing that people have to suffer in order for things to change. Seems like a pretty common theme in our world. We learn from our mistakes instead of learning what’s right and wrong before that. 


  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited December 6
    @Hatorian

    "If they are going to happen is it better they become public so we can make people aware and try to enact change that these actions are not acceptable?"

    YES.

    I don't understand how this is a paradox. People don't "have to" suffer. They are suffering. They are finally able to fight back, some of them, in a limited way. I guess it seems like a paradox if you think sexual harrassment is new.
  • JaimieT said:
    @Hatorian

    "If they are going to happen is it better they become public so we can make people aware and try to enact change that these actions are not acceptable?"

    YES.

    I don't understand how this is a paradox. People don't "have to" suffer. They are suffering. They are finally able to fight back, some of them, in a limited way. I guess it seems like a paradox if you think sexual harrassment is new.
    I say it’s a paradox because we hope these things don’t happen. we don’t want them to happen to anyone. But it becomes a paradox when we say maybe there’s are beneficial side if it happens to people where it becomes public and as a society we become aware that these things are unacceptable. 

    I’m also not the greatest literary forum writer. Maybe paradox isn’t the right word. Maybe counterintuitive is the better word. I do think people are learning it’s absolutely unacceptable to do certain things and every time a prominent celebrity is accused it helps make more people aware and potentially makes them stop certain behaviours. 
    JaimieT
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Hatorian said:
    JaimieT said:
    @Hatorian

    "If they are going to happen is it better they become public so we can make people aware and try to enact change that these actions are not acceptable?"

    YES.

    I don't understand how this is a paradox. People don't "have to" suffer. They are suffering. They are finally able to fight back, some of them, in a limited way. I guess it seems like a paradox if you think sexual harrassment is new.
    I say it’s a paradox because we hope these things don’t happen. we don’t want them to happen to anyone. But it becomes a paradox when we say maybe there’s are beneficial side if it happens to people where it becomes public and as a society we become aware that these things are unacceptable. 

    I’m also not the greatest literary forum writer. Maybe paradox isn’t the right word. Maybe counterintuitive is the better word. I do think people are learning it’s absolutely unacceptable to do certain things and every time a prominent celebrity is accused it helps make more people aware and potentially makes them stop certain behaviours. 

    Oh I think I understand. "Isn't it sad for these things not to happen they have to happen."
    Hatorian
  • I also say it’s a paradox/counterintuitive because 99% of abuse that happens in today’s world is stuff we will never hear about. 

    I also say this because Aron said “as of 2 years ago” what changed in 2 years? It became unacceptable for celebrities to do certain things? But has abuse toward people changed in 2 years? No. I don’t know Aron personally but from eveything I’ve read and listened it seems like he is a good person who wouldn’t conduct in these manners. I’m pretty sure he’s conducted himself in a respectful manner throughout his life. 

    Thats what makes it counterintuitive. This shouldn’t happen in the first place. It shouldn’t happen today and it shouldn’t have happened 10 years ago. Why is this just now becoming an issue? Only cuz celebrities are finally getting caught? Anyone who was brought up with a sense of respect and goodwill should know these things are wrong. We shouldn’t have to learn from celebritie’s mistakes. We should already know it’s wrong. So like I said it’s counterintuitive because we should all know abuse is unacceptable and we shouldn’t need these news stories to inform us of so. 
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