501 - "The Wars to Come" - SPOILERS

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  • Elisa said:

    The point of Maggy the Frog is that most all these things that the woods witch prophesized has come true for Cersei now. 1) Marry the King Robert not the Prince Rhaegar 2) Three kids for Cersei, 20 bastards for Robert  -- the only thing left is the young upstart 3) Marg, Sansa, Dany, etc  -- which is why Cersei is a bitch to all young royals...and driven by prophecy.  As mentioned above shades of Macbeth.

    That's not the only thing left, Maggy also mentioned all her kids being Kings/Queen and dying. Which is also not going to help Cersei paranoia.

    It does looks like Mance is indeed dead and I'm not really upset. Nothing at all against the actor, but show Mance didn't really interest me.

    I'll be curious to see how close Stanis gets to Winterfell this season. I
    Elisa
  • @davembc I totally agree that the double Ds will stick with book knowledge, I just meant I'm going to have to give up watching the show and expecting to see a strick adaptation of the books.

    About the valonqar, the Sandor theory makes a lot of sense especially if Frankengregor fights as Cersei's champion. If Sandor is the gravedigger he is associated with the faith and may be tapped for that purpose. Having said that, I think Jaime choking the life out of Cersei would make for a far more bitter end.
  • ElisaElisa Los Angeles
    @Raiyne I don't think Varys was pro Marcella as Queen.  Varys is pro Dany.  Was that just a typo?

    I am not expecting the Valonqar, Mance/Rattleshake switch, nor the return of the Hound.  It's a brave new world.  Looking forward to more Stannis da Mannis, Dorne, Tyrion and Dany meeting, Cersei's walk of shame, Drogon's return, Tyrion venturing into the Sorrows, and Arya aka No one's training.  
  • @elisa Thanks - nope total brain fart on my part. I had completely confused the Myrcella in Dorne and Dany in Meereen plot lines (insert confused emoji here)
    ksa1001Elisa
  • First of all I love the bald move casts and am so glad to have you guys back! I especially like how you've set up GoT with Jim as the non-reader and you handling the spoilores and tinfoil. I've lurked on many a forum but am finally breaking my silence to address a book/show difference I haven't heard anyone mention so far.

    So…I know that Dany's storyline is not a fan favorite for book readers, and I agree her Mereen adventures are a bit drawn out. But dammit, I'll just say it - I really enjoyed her chapters in Dance. And here's why: book Dany has a sense of humor and playfulness, even when she's dealing with the problems in mereen and hearing about the slave masters retaking the cities she left behind. She's kinda wiley, she teases Barristan and makes little jokes to herself. Even at the very end when she leaves Drogon and is wandering through the savannah, she's got a little lilt to her step. I think these qualities make Her character a lot more interesting and sympathetic.

    Whereas, show Dany is all indignant outrage, exalted mhysa, etc. it's pretty bad ass when she yells at people in old valyrian, but her character is pretty one-dimensional. This makes her show storyline a lot less interesting to me (and I'm not attached to the books; I love the show.) Is it the actress? The way her character is written? Am I missing something here?

    I know a lot of her personality comes across through her inner monologue and P.O.V., but it seems the show has done a decent job of creating well-rounded characters out if a lot more introverted examples. Jon snow, Sansa, even brienne.

    I know a lot of viewers and readers alike have issue with Dany; I've just never seen this particular issue addressed anywhere. Would love to hear what you guys think.
    steph_b
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    If you like Dany's plot, or hell, especially if you don't, I highly recommend the Meereenese Blot blog.  The one I'm thinking of is the first collection of essay's listed on this page:  https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/essays/
  • ElisaElisa Los Angeles
    @skp I agree show Dany is bland and book Dany is multi dimensional.  That said I have faith based on the first episode, Dany was playful, concerned, and the Queen.  So let's hope they have listened to the viewers more layers for John and Dany in the show please. 
  • @Georgexile I've always assumed that Varys warned Jorah that there was going to be an assassination attempt on Dany.
  • Book Dany and show Dany both suck. But show Dany is even worse. She is written badly and acted poorly. Season 2 was the peak of the awfulness though Thanks the Gods.
    RaiyneKenzie
  • ElisaElisa Los Angeles
    @Benoît I thought Jorah was informed by Varys of the assassination attempt planned and might have been in on it but he had his change of heart once he became part of Dany's gang and fell in love. 
  • That's what I thought too, @Elisa

    I am chalking the Varys inconsistency up to the change from the books decision coming later in the game and wasn't necessarily mapped out since season 1. I think there is room for interpretation with respect to the letter Jorah received that day at the marketplace so it's not too much of stretch for diligent show watchers to overcome.
    Elisa
  • edited April 2015
    When Mance was on the stake, they focus on Tormound quite a lot. At least three separate cut aways to his reaction shot. Do you think he is replacing rattleshirt so they keep the story line going?

    I recall The baby switcheroo was the main plot point of Sam, Gilly and Ammond heading off to Essos.
  • ksa1001ksa1001 Plano, TX
    I hope they do away with both plot personally.
    Elisa
  • UnderwoodUnderwood Philadelphia, PA
    Random, but the picture used for the podcast of this episode is just straight badassery.
  • I'm just waiting for the Sam/Gilly sex scene! I hope it's super long and awkward...
    RaiyneElisaKenzietrippy
  • I think Mance is just dead.
    ElisaRaiyne
  • @A_Ron_Hubbard  I look forward to hearing clips from the audio book with Roy Dotris' performance - I just have one request, please, please, play at least one clip of Roy reading one of Martin's famous GofT sex scenes, so people can know what they're missing out on. They are hilarious!

    The way I describe it to people is to imagine a soft-core porn being performed by the cast of Monte Python. It's a confusing mix of feelings... You have this graphic sex scene in Roy's gravely Monty Python voice, which only makes you realize all the more that this scene came straight from the brain of George RR Martin - so you have that visual to deal with...It really is an interesting experience. Not knocking Roy's performance generally, I agree it's pretty great.
    Raiyne
  • I have heard a bunch of people question if Dany can be burned and if she knows whether or not she can. She said, "He [Viserys] was no dragon. Fire cannot kill a dragon." Then later on, she walks into fire and is not killed. So it seems that fire can't hurt her and she knows it. 
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    Yeah, I thought that as well, but Martin has made it clear that fire resistance is not a magical Targaryan trait.  But, the show isn't the books, so who knows what they'll do.  Maybe she'll turn into Firestar from Spiderman and Friends before it's all over.
    GojantElisa
  • tristantristan Liverpool
    I posted something on the fb thread about a possible solution to dannys problem this episode, but wasn't sure if it could be considered as a spoiler.

    Anyway surely the easy solution is for Danny to use trial by combat as a means for judgement. She could even have the harpy murderer face selmy, who would be just some old guy to the unsuspecting mereen crowd. I feel she needs the equivalent of sending someone to the nights watch, like joff could of done with ned to appease everyone. The fighting pits could serve as this device for Danny, and would also give the people a justice they understand.
    Elisa
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    That's a solid point.  I think the Meereenese would "get" trial by combat in the way they don't get the concept of the primacy of the law.  Or, I think they "get" it, the majority just think it's stupid. But,  more to the point, I think the show has 10 hours to tell the gist of a story that took 1000 pages to tell, so they don't really have time to slowly apply pressures to Dany in the form of war, famine, plague, and steady wheedling of bureaucrats, sycophants, as well as the drip drip of murders perpetrated by terrorists, so instead we get a few big scenes like this one that communicates "uh oh, Dany is wayyy out of her depth here."

    This all sounds like a criticism, but it's not.  I don't think people would have the patience for what would end up being 5 seasons mired in Meereen (and counting!  she's still over there as far as we know), so they have to do things differently.  Usually they come up with something just as good or even better/more efficient, but I thought it was a bit clunky last night.  But something I'm trying to keep an eye on is whether that's just me as a book reader seeing a sour note where there is none or if there is a problem and if so how big a problem is it?
    Elisa
  • I think you are exceedingly generous where the show is concerned, @A_Ron_Hubbard and if after some contemplation you still think it's clunky then I think most likely it's fair and not just "book douchiness" as the kids like to call it.

    It also doesn't help that Dany is surrounded by a boring ass crew.
  • ElisaElisa Los Angeles
    So the double Ds brought up Grey Scale with Shireen and Gilly's book club chat...with out Jon Connington..I was thinking maybe someone else will catch the plague on the road to Mereen.  Hmmm look out Jorah and/or Varys...
  • Yeah, I figured they would cut out the grey scale stuff, but this makes me think otherwise. I agree Jorah or Varys might be in danger.
    Elisa
  • hypergenesbhypergenesb Atlanta
    edited April 2015
    Shum said:

    I'm just waiting for the Sam/Gilly sex scene! I hope it's super long and awkward...

    With any luck, Glenn (from Mad Men) will join the Night's Watch instead of going to war, show up and make it a super awkward threesome.

    image
    steph_b
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
     
    Shum said:

    I'm just waiting for the Sam/Gilly sex scene! I hope it's super long and awkward...

    "Fat pink mast".  That's all I need to say.

    On the Greyscale, yeah... I feel like, at a minimum, the Double D's want to keep the action set piece where they get attacked on their voyage down the Rhoyn.  Griff or no, that would be a nice set piece (especially with them building this up about the greyscale victims looking grotesque and acting like wild animals, this could get Walking Dead levels of disgusting action), and Tyrion falling into the river would be a nice moment of suspense, a potential episode cliffhanger, even.  It might not be super important to the plot, but it would make for an awesome five minutes of show.
    Elisasteph_bGojant
  • God I hope so! That trip through the sorrows was my favorite chapter in ADWD. So atmospheric. I will be pretty disappointed if we don't get some Rhoyne scenes and maybe even a nice sighting of the Old Man in the River. I really expected them to cut all of it but @A_Ron_Hubbard makes a mean point about all the build up needing to lead somewhere and it would make a fantastic set piece.

    I wonder if Tyrion will play the hero to save someone as in the books and who that someone would be given all the streamlining of characters.
  • A.Ron, just re-listening to this podcast and have to let you know I've giggled like a little girl each time I've heard you say "...EAST Watch by the Bay and Shadow Tower, I don't know which one is east or west." Good stuff. :D
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    Haha, Mark, I know, I realized how stupid that sounded when I was listening to it myself.  God, it was like one of those SNL Jeopardy  skits where Trebek is serving up softballs and the guests keep whiffing.  
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