Pete raped Peggy?

You guys have said this multiple times on your cast but you are terribly, terribly mistaken.

To the best of my knowledge (I rewatched season 1 last week) ALL of Pete and Peggy's relations were consensual. Pete is obviously in the dominant position due to him being Peggy's superior but in no way does he ever rape her. Peggy is actually very into Pete during their in office flings. They joke about Pete accidently ripping her blouse, etc. Peggy then starts to resent Pete and wants to cut contact after the baby.

We know Pete is a grimy pimp but he didn't rape Peggy. You guys are smearing his character. Go back and watch season 1 again
steph_b

Comments

  • steph_bsteph_b Austin
    edited April 2015
    Peggy seemed pretty into it to me. He did rape the German au pair tho
  • broompersonbroomperson the Iron Islands
    steph_b said:

    Peggy seemed pretty into it to me. He did rape the German au pair tho

    Did he? I'll have to rewatch that. I remember it being creepy but sort of ambiguous when it came to what actually went on
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    edited April 2015
    I tried to find a clip of it, but everyone on Youtube has to be an artist and remix it to Madonna's "My Baby's Got a Secret" bullshit, so I never did.  So, having not seen the scene in years, I'll stick with my first impressions and say that reasonable people could disagree about Pete and Peggy.  Me, I consider everything she'd experienced up to that point, women's perceived and accepted role in the office and in the world at large, her coaching by Joan, etc and say that Pete showing up was coercive, and that he said a pack of lies to get his nut off on her.  I'm not going to say that Pete's a rapist after that scene, he's just sleazy and gross.

    He straight up raped that au pair though. And the thing is, there is no way I believe he'd do anything different of Peggy had just kept saying "no" or refused him when he came to her door.  
  • broompersonbroomperson the Iron Islands
    From what I'm reading it seems the general concensus is that he raped the au pair. I'll rewatch the scene when I get a chance tonight.

    But as for the Pete/Peggy, I agree it oozes of sleaze (picture that in your head) but the sleaze is really coming from both sides. Peggy lets Pete into her apartment where he bones her, and they have at least one in office fling in which Peggy is very much into it. So much that it kind of grossed me out knowing what we know about pete and what kind of character Peggy becomes. It's very weird going back and seeing Peggy have sex with Pete
  • Definitely re-watch the episode with the au pair. They don't explicitly show the rape happening, but they make it pretty clear by the way he gets confronted by his neighbor about it. This is S3, e8.
  • steph_bsteph_b Austin
    edited April 2015
    I think we have to be careful about calling caving to pressure rape. Women make choices all day long - good, bad, weak, strong. It is still her choice. Calling caving to pressure from men rape steals the choice away from the woman. As if we are so weak that we are always the victim of men then choices aren't choices at all - all we do is react to men who moves us around like so many pieces on a chessboard with their overpowering strength and manipulative prowess. 


  • ksa1001ksa1001 Plano, TX
    This is giving me flashbacks of the Game Of Thrones debates from last year with Jaime and Cersei.
    steph_b
  • broompersonbroomperson the Iron Islands
    ksa1001 said:

    This is giving me flashbacks of the Game Of Thrones debates from last year with Jaime and Cersei.

    I recently had that debate with my friend who was watching the series for the first time. He originally didn't think it was rape. I wanted to slap him
  • ksa1001ksa1001 Plano, TX
    edited April 2015
    @broomperson If they're just a show watcher it's a lil cut and dry/obvious.

    The debate last year seemed to revolve around book readers who felt that it was depicted differently and somehow less "rape-y" in the books (whatever that means)
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    Well, as I said last year in GoT, we as a society are currently moving away from the "violent, forced" concept of rape to a "lack of or inability to give consent" concept of rape.  So, people are correct when they instinctively feel the goal posts are being moved.  I fully endorse this redefinition.  

    Even granting that, it's my view that Pete raped the au pair.  She was scared, she didn't consent, she had many social barriers between her and Pete that made her rather powerless in the scenario, and clearly the experience effected her enough that it was brought to the attention of her employer.  In my mind that's rape.  In some people's minds you need to pull a knife or slap a person around to rape them, in my mind that's rape + sexual assault and battery. 

    As a comparison; I can be robbed without the use of a weapon, and I don't have to say, "please don't rob me" for it to count.  Anything done in addition to taking my possessions without my consent are things that would aggravate the crime of robbery, or be additional crimes themselves.  "Armed robbery", "breaking and entering", "battery", "unlawful confinement", "murder", etc.  The absence of these doesn't mean I didn't "really" get robbed. Jim's my best friend, he can ask me for money without me thinking he's robbing me.  He could probably let himself into my apartment and "borrow" a cup of sugar from me, he doesn't need a persmission slip filled out in triplicate.  But it's also important to know that despite him being my friend, he could still abuse his position of trust to rob me. If he did so, I'd expect the courts and police to take the matter seriously, and not say, "well what did you expect, you gave him a key to your apartment," or "you're business partners, how they hell can he rob you?"
    I feel like a lot of folks overthink this.
    ksa1001AntManBeeFlukesJayInMemphisPhoebes89SlytherinSister
  • How is it that Peggy would have a lack of ability to consent to Pete? That's where I say the act of choice is being taken from a woman. She is just straight up defined as powerless victim purely because he is higher on the food chain at work?
  • FreddyFreddy Denton, Texas
    edited April 2015
    @A_Ron_Hubbard The issue with the "inability to consent" argument is that it seems to carry a lot of double standards. For instance, if I'm at a party and start verbally flirting with a girl and she becomes physical in return, even though we were both the same level of intoxicated I would be considered the offender if we had sex that night and later she said she was too drunk to consent. The problem is since I didn't say I was too drunk to consent first, I'm the defendant (which is damn near as good as guilty when it comes to rape/sex crimes). It almost becomes a case where "you better make accusations first, just in case she decides to accuse you of something that no reasonable person in your situation would consider having occurred" is the only actual defense against the situation. You know, other than the ultimate defense of not getting drunk and having sex, but who the hell wants to give up drunken sex!?

    By the way, this is all going to be a thing of the past as soon as sex robots are perfected. Technology, is there anything it can't do... eventually... hopefully... God, I'm lonely.
    steph_bksa1001JayInMemphis
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    Steph_B: I'm not really talking about Peggy.  Although, of course, if Peggy felt she couldn't say no to Pete because it would harm her career prospects, you're back to dealing with coercion.  I'm not saying Peggy was a powerless, but there is certainly an imbalance of power in that situation.  I mean, damn, don't we want people having sex with people they genuinely want to have sex with?  Or at least if we're talking prostitution, a fair deal that everyone agrees to mutually in advance?  Maybe secretaries want to have sex with ad execs.  Maybe a 14 year old girl wants to have sex with her high school biology teacher.  Is that the end of the conversation?  It's complicated, but in general I'm for complications that reduce ambiguity and power imbalances.

    Freddy:  I agree, there are a lot of uncomfortable edge cases introduced, and it's going to take time to work them all out.  If I were giving advice to my son (and hell, in 6-8 years I will be), I'd say it's unwise to have sex with a stranger while they are intoxicated, and the more intoxicated, the more foolish the behavior is. Obviously, being blacked out or drugged is a bright white line that can't be crossed.

    Also, I think that this "buzzed sex" turning into "false rape accusation" is fairly an overblown threat.  I think far more blackout / roofie rape gets unreported than men falsely accused.  I think the statistics bear that out. But as a man, if I wanted to stay safe, I'd practice safe sex with sober strangers.  

    It's kind of telling that similar advice one would have to give to women is far more complicated and fraught with danger, and would come down to essentially trusting the man to comply with things like wearing condoms, etc.
    SlytherinSister
  • FreddyFreddy Denton, Texas
    I think the first time a girl gets drunk, consents to sex, and then changes her mind later should represent the last time in her life she gets drunk. Same goes for guys.
  • I didnt get that Peggy had any apprehension whatsoever. Seemed to me like she was totally into it. Assuming she was into it - am I to believe she cant truly be into it because Pete has higher social standing and thus it's rape? That seems like mental jiu jitsu to me. I get that line of thinking with minors and plenty of other power structure scenarios but definitely not with Peggy in that particular scene. 

    And using that same logic, Harry just served up some attempted rape to Megan. 
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    Sure, but good luck with personally or legally enforcing that. The only thing you have the power to do is not have sex with drunk people, or to the extent that you do, realize you're undertaking a slight risk of being reported as a rapist. The drunker the person, the higher the risk, the sketchier the circumstances, the more likely you are in fact a rapist and will be seen as such in the eyes of the law. It's not a particularly hard risk assessment. I'm a pragmatist. I'll give up the "fun" of drunken sex with strangers/acquaintances for the assurance of not raping or being raped.

    But what I see is a lot of guys (and girls) acting like getting laid requires some form of impairment, however slight, and that's... disturbing. Getting laid is not hard, and if it is, there are probably other problems getting in the way that could use work on.
    steph_b
  • broompersonbroomperson the Iron Islands
    Oh god, what have I started?
    JayInMemphis
  • ksa1001ksa1001 Plano, TX
    lol
    broomperson
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    *Walks into conversation with interest, reads it, backs out again slowly*
    broompersonFrakkin TJayInMemphisksa1001SlytherinSister
  • Frakkin TFrakkin T Currently Offline
    Dee said:

    *Walks into conversation with interest, reads it, backs out again slowly*

    Yeah I would much rather argue about shock collars for dogs

    TaraC73
  • JayInMemphisJayInMemphis Memphis, TN
    @steph_b I understand the argument you're making about @A_Ron_Hubbard 's POV on this potentially denying or disregarding Peggy's agency as a person.

    But in his second post, he specifically led with a distinction in societal evolution. I think the interpersonal aspects of Peggy and Pete S1 have been talked out. But there's also a matter of time. That relationship explicitly happened during the Eisenhower administration.

    I wouldn't make an argument that Peggy was incapable as a person to decide for herself whether to engage in an affair with Pete (or was Pete not yet married at that point?). But the series has made a huge point about Peggy's backstory, and the dire straits she came from.

    Peggy landing this job in an Office Building as part of the typist pool was a big break for her. Getting a chance to express herself as a professional admittedly came a little bit later, but the ambition was always there.

    Yes, Peggy had options and inner convictions when Pete presented himself to her. She took Don's hospital advice and moved on after giving the baby away. But she still harbored some series ill will toward Pete, and flung it in his face a few years later to tell him he had actually had a son that he would never meet. It was probably the most devastating moment to Pete in the series, and it came from somewhere.

    Peggy's class anxieties have expressed themselves famously. ("You never give me any gratitude!" "That's what the money is for!") ("Joan, you're filthy rich and don't have to do anything you don't want to ever again.") That Pete would sense and exploit such a weakness is well in line with the character they've been developing for him from the get go.
    A_Ron_Hubbard
  • aberry89aberry89 California
    edited April 2015
    @Dee  I'm with ya there...

    Walks into thread of rape being discussed by 95% men.  

    image

    Okay, joking aside - Men can discuss a rape of a woman, in fact it's probably good to have discussions about it. But just keep "not being and growing up as female" at the back of your minds...or the front of your minds. 
    pavlovsbellSlytherinSister
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    @aberry89 Never was a more appropriate gif used.
  • aberry89aberry89 California
    edited April 2015
    @Dee ;I almost went into photoshop to put "male perspective on rape" in place of "dead dove"... but that was too much work. 

    For the most part good discussion is going on here, but as two women can have our moment to lean back from the table, meet eyes and make the *exasperated sigh* face. 
  • He raped her....sorry.
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    aberry89 said:

    For the most part good discussion is going on here, but as two women can have our moment to lean back from the table, meet eyes and make the *exasperated sigh* face. 
    Seems like ya'll would get tired of arguing about it, hell I get burnt out on it frequently, so if I can take up some slack here and there figured I would. 
    SlytherinSister
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