308 - "Now Am Found"

2

Comments

  • Yeah it does almost feel like something was cut from the season with Wayne and his daughter, but it could of just been a red herring.

    I feel like Hoyt should of been an actor we didn't know, i cant explain why, but soon as i recognized Hal from Cliffhanger, the moment lost a lot of its suspence, but thats just me.


  • edited February 2019
    Roland spiralling downwards after being involved in a murder (not to mention Tom's death and falling out with Hayes all over again) seemed totally plausible to me. I think the show plays the emotional reality very authentically, which is why it can stand out to those of us accustomed to seeing our heroes blow away dozens of bad guys without a hint of remorse.

    In retrospect, some of the plot stuff did seem like a stretch, though. Like, the whole postmortem conviction isn't something that would really happen to begin with, but also, what was his family hoping to gain by ooverturningit? No matter what, he's still going to be seen as a crazy murderer for planning and staging that massacre, no matter what drove him to that point. Surely any relatives of his would want to forget about the whole thing, rather than shine a light on their connection to him.
  • raabnhood said:
    ...

    -Finally, I am struggling with who was the big bad? Hoyt seemed more like another fake out. He felt more like a rich dad just trying to keep his family from falling apart after the boy died and his daughter took Julie. My thought is his daughter was doing all that without him knowing and wasn't clued in until Julie was in his house and he had to use his power and influence to cover everything up as much as possible. Maybe he knew his daughter played with the kids, or that they wanted to adopt them, but nothing about what eventually happened until later. My real confusion comes to Harris James and the fact that it does seem like he murdered Tom, or did he? 

    As the one eyed man described the events to the two old detectives it was confirmed that the boy's death was an accident (something I thought from the beginning) and that Julie was taken with somewhat "best" intentions. Harris James was just a normal cop that kept a reckless driving situation off the books. Then Hoyt paid him off to stash a backpack to end an investigation for a fat check as a security man of the chicken farm. BUT THEN we are led to believe he found Tom in the basement and killed him? That seems like a far stretch. I mean, I'm not convinced they established Harris James as a straight up murderer, did they? And if he did murder, are we convinced Hoyt was the one who ordered the killing? It didn't seem like it but maybe Hoyt knew what happened and started drinking more because he realizes the lengths he's going to protect his family, that an innocent father who lost his kids also be murdered was getting out of hand. That's some dark stuff and the scenes with Hoyt and Harris James didn't really make me feel they were that sort of murderous disgusting people. Thoughts?

    3) Harris James definitely murdered Tom.  He was already shown to be somewhat crooked (pinning Will's murder and Julie's disappearance on Woodard) and so it's not that far off to believe that he would have killed Tom once Tom discovered part of the truth.  I mean, the last we see of Tom alive is him getting into the pink room and we see Harris sneaking up behind him.  There's no way Harris lets Tom go and after finding that pink room, there is no chance that Tom then just kills himself.  In hindsight, there isn't a truly "big bad" this season. 

    ...

    As for Harris, going back to point 3, i think he killed both Tom and Lucy.  As mentioned, we see him sneak up on Tom and then the next thing Tom is dead.  Now, did Hoyt order this?  Not sure.  Harris could have just acted on his own feeling a sense of loyalty to the Hoyts and not wanting the truth to come out (which would also implicate him and planting evidence against Woodard).  Additionally, Hays makes a connection that right before she died, Lucy was calling Harris and Harris went out to Vegas and then Lucy dies and Harris leaves Vegas.  Granted, it could be circumstantial, but pretty suspicious as well.  Would be willing to bet that Harris also killed Lucy to silence her.  Plus, when Hays and Roland kidnap Harris and start to interrogate him, if he truly had nothing to hide and was not guilty of some things, he would have talked.  Instead, he was keeping his mouth shut and when given a chance (after Hays uncuffs him), Harris lunges at Hays.  Doesn't really come off as the actions of someone who is entirely innocent.  Seem more like behavior from someone that might have been guilty of what they were accusing him of.  So while Harris might not come off as a psychopath killer, i think he wasn't above murder when he thought the situation called for it.

    I personally believe Harris James killed Tom. It'd be hard to dispute. But looking the other way on a car accident and even planting evidence is pretty low level compared to hitting someone in the head and then killing him and staging a suicide. But I guess he was just a victim of escalating circumstance and wanted to provide for his family. Same with Hoyt. In that case, Season 3 is nothing like Season 1. It's just a sad series of events of characters believing they're making the right choices with some of the worst possible outcomes. The show presents a mystery so much deeper and there is none to be had. This whole season played with viewer's expectations. Hiring such a well known actor for Hoyt and the final minutes of Episode 7 with the conclusion it had, I am sure people were waiting for more. Absolutely loved this season still, so I'm not having that thought to put it down or anything. 
  • The more I let the finale settle, the more it pisses me off tbh. 
    mylifeaskirkgroovydooleyPangs
  • raabnhood said:
    I personally believe Harris James killed Tom. It'd be hard to dispute. But looking the other way on a car accident and even planting evidence is pretty low level compared to hitting someone in the head and then killing him and staging a suicide. But I guess he was just a victim of escalating circumstance and wanted to provide for his family. Same with Hoyt. In that case, Season 3 is nothing like Season 1. It's just a sad series of events of characters believing they're making the right choices with some of the worst possible outcomes. The show presents a mystery so much deeper and there is none to be had. This whole season played with viewer's expectations. Hiring such a well known actor for Hoyt and the final minutes of Episode 7 with the conclusion it had, I am sure people were waiting for more. Absolutely loved this season still, so I'm not having that thought to put it down or anything. 
    That's also how it can start though.  You do one small thing and then the next thing you know, you're trapped and being leveraged or blackmailed into doing something else.  The other thing is if Harris was so innocent, then his actions while being "questioned" by Roland and Hays aren't fully explained.  Yes, i can believe that Harris feared for his life so perhaps that's why he attacks Hays as a form of defense/survival but on the other hand, it also can be portrayed like he was guilty and was trying to hide something as you'd think an innocent person would have try to explain what they know and what they don't know.
  • Great season but just a good finale. 3 takeaways on the finale for me.

    1) Stephen Dorff was fucking incredible
    2) I’m  just waiting for a moment when I get to use the “butt face garbage humans”as an insult.  
    3) Holy exposition, Batman


    Kate23mylifeaskirk
  • MichelleMichelle California
    edited February 2019
    Agree with all of you.  I thought the entire season was really great, and should have ended with a sizzle - but closed with a weak fizzle instead, you know, like when you're trying to spray something but the sprayer won't work?  I thought we'd end with a powerful action packed scene or at least a scene of the guys confronting adult Julie and getting closure that way, letting her go on with her current life but letting her know they know who she is.  I also thought something more major would happen with Watts.  

    Loose ends/'let the mystery be':
    • I'm glad that Julie's actually alive and living her best life as 'Mary' with her husband and daughter, but I also wonder how something like that is pulled off.  Does she apply for an entirely new social security card?  Don't they need a birth cert for that?  How is she on her husband's medical insurance without any sort of proof of ID?  (Yes, I think about these things.)
    • Why give Tom extra flavor in terms of his orientation if they don't do a single thing with it?  If it was just to get us thinking that maybe the kids weren't his, well, we were already on board that train.
    • Is Henry going to investigate the address that he put in his pocket?  As of right now, he has no idea who lives there or what he'll actually find.
    • No answer as to why Roland and his gf split up?
    • What happened to all those other corn husk dolls that Isabel and Watts bought?  Did they give one away to each little girl they came into contact with?  If so, why didn't that signal any red flags from parents?  In a small town like that, people talk.  You're telling me some mom's not gonna be like "did your daughter come home with a weird doll of some sort today?"  
    • And whatever happened to Elise and the documentary they were filming?
    BroRad33
  • CoryCory New Scotland
    Michelle said:
    Loose ends/'let the mystery be':
    • Is Henry going to investigate the address that he put in his pocket?  As of right now, he has no idea who lives there or what he'll actually find.
    Well he knows that's where he picked up his father, which I'd think he'd recognize, therefore knowing Wayne didn't end up there by accident.
  • edited February 2019
    I think I'm comfortable saying that this season was at least as good as season 1.

    • Harris James: I don't think he killed Lucy. She used the bag of money to buy drugs, and overdosed. I'm less sure about Tom, but I think there's a good chance he could have committed suicide after Harris James explained what had happened. I think by the time they've interviewed James's widow in the nursing home, we're supposed to understand that he was a kind man.
    • Henry started to throw away the paper with the address, then put it in his pocket, so I think he follows it up somehow -- gives it to the documentary woman, Roland, whatever.
    • The last scenes with Wayne -- I'm not sure what to make of them. That part reminded me of Frank Semyon's death in season 2, where he's talking to the vision of his wife. When Wayne walks into the jungle, maybe that's supposed to represent him finally getting completely lost in his dementia? If so, that's very sad.
  • MichelleMichelle California
    Cory said:
    Michelle said:
    Loose ends/'let the mystery be':
    • Is Henry going to investigate the address that he put in his pocket?  As of right now, he has no idea who lives there or what he'll actually find.
    Well he knows that's where he picked up his father, which I'd think he'd recognize, therefore knowing Wayne didn't end up there by accident.
    Right, but is he going to follow up and see who lives there, thereby discovering all this info on his own?
    • Harris James: I don't think he killed Lucy. He told her Will was dead, she used the bag of money to buy drugs, and overdosed. I'm less sure about Tom, but I think there's a good chance he could have committed suicide after Harris James explained what had happened. I think by the time they've interviewed James's widow in the nursing home, we're supposed to understand that he was a kind man
    This could have been a nice way to wrap up Tom's story, but I don't think there's evidence for it on the screen. Couldn't Harris have just bounced Tom from the estate before he discovers the pink room? (or just kept that big ass vault closed). I thought with Lucy she's given the money in 80 but doesn't die until years later when Harris visits her in Vegas.
    telephoneofmadness
    • Harris James: I don't think he killed Lucy. He told her Will was dead, she used the bag of money to buy drugs, and overdosed. I'm less sure about Tom, but I think there's a good chance he could have committed suicide after Harris James explained what had happened. I think by the time they've interviewed James's widow in the nursing home, we're supposed to understand that he was a kind man
    This could have been a nice way to wrap up Tom's story, but I don't think there's evidence for it on the screen. Couldn't Harris have just bounced Tom from the estate before he discovers the pink room? (or just kept that big ass vault closed). I thought with Lucy she's given the money in 80 but doesn't die until years later when Harris visits her in Vegas.
    The police were planning to pin Will's death on Tom, and I don't think they'd have believed him anyway if he'd told them about the pink room, so he was doomed. Add the alcoholism, gambling addiction, homosexuality, and trauma of the case and he had plenty of incentives to kill himself.

    Yes, I watched that scene again and the bag exchange is from 1980. Harris James could have gone to Vegas to kill Lucy or pay her off. But with both deaths there's no hard evidence either way.
    johnnytruant
  • Agreed about him having the motivation. And I think I prefer that to Harris James being a patrolman turned jet setting fixer. I just wish they would have shown us some of this. Like what happened to O'Brien?
  • I'm thinking Wayne re-remembers why he's at Julie/Mary and Lucy's house while he's drinking the water. But he does the math and decides against it. I see him in the mode that made him counsel his son into not telling his wife he had an affair if he didn't think it was a sign of something else. Because he'd only be doing it for himself, and hurting others. Wayne realizes everyone who would care/"benefit" from this news is dead or has moved on. No need to throw that family into a world of shit for nothing. Because that documentary crew would certainly kick up a lot of shit if they knew.
    MurderbearPangs
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    I'm thinking Wayne re-remembers why he's at Julie/Mary and Lucy's house while he's drinking the water. But he does the math and decides against it. I see him in the mode that made him counsel his son into not telling his wife he had an affair if he didn't think it was a sign of something else. Because he'd only be doing it for himself, and hurting others. Wayne realizes everyone who would care/"benefit" from this news is dead or has moved on. No need to throw that family into a world of shit for nothing. Because that documentary crew would certainly kick up a lot of shit if they knew.
    I agree. I also think though his son will figure it out....Maybe.
  • WonderedObjectWonderedObject SAN Francisco, CA
    So what’s with the season 1 tie in? Is the son gonna pass along information to the reporter and they bust the case wide open? 

    Idk, I liked it a lot but still waiting to understand the relationship it has with season one. So is it no longer an anthology? 
  • edited February 2019

    I felt a little letdown with the finale of this season.  While we basically got all of the answers to questions that needed answering, it just felt a little weird to have the main plot basically end up as a giant accident and having Mr. June appear like a decent person.  Can't say i fully understand why after all that time, Mr. June wanted to clear his conscience.  Why not do that in 1997 when he said he found Julie? 

    I started out thinking this way, and even commented how much I liked the ambiguous ending, but then I realized that if Junius Watts was watching the dominos as they fell in real time (which he was), he was less and less incentivized to admit anything, because the chain of events went something like:

    1)  November 7, 1980--The mentally-ill and grieving Isabel Hoyt accidentally kills Will Purcell while abducting his little sister, Julie Purcell (which would be felony murder, most likely, since Isabell caused Will's death while kidnapping Julie, which is a felony), and Watts moves Will's body to help cover up the crime (which, by the way, could also make Watts liable for felony murder, because he's conspiring to cover up a killing by moving a body while aiding and abetting in the felony kidnapping);
    2)  1980 - 1990--Watts continues to aid and abet Isabel Hoyt's felonious abduction and abuse of Julie while knowing the Hoyt family is paying Lucy off to stay quiet for about 10 years (or until Lucy's death by murder or OD);

    Watts is surely very aware of the resulting events related to the case, which very quickly include the following:

    3)  1980--Three innocent teenagers are harassed and questioned by the cops for the death of Will Purcell and disappearance of Julie Purcell;
    4)  1980--An innocent man (Brett Woodard) is harassed and hunted down by locals for the death of Will Purcell and killed (via suicide by cop), but not before Woodard kills 10 other men and shoots a cop (Roland);
    5)  1980--The innocent Woodard is framed and is posthumously convicted of the murders of Will and Julie, while Watts knows Woodard is innocent of both (especially of Julie's, since she is alive and well in that sketchy-as-hell pink dungeon at Hoyt Manor);
    6)  1988--Lucy Purcell is murdered by Harris James (or OD's) in Vegas;
    7)  late 1980s--Watts finds out Isabel is, and has been, heavily drugging Julie, so he releases Julie, leading Isabel to commit suicide by OD'ing (this may occur before Lucy's death, I'm not sure);
    8)  1990--After Julie Purcell calls in to the police hotline with vague statements casting suspicion over Tom Purcell, an innocent Tom Purcell is harassed and interrogated by police for the death of Will Purcell (since Woodard's conviction is overturned), causing Tom to have a full mental breakdown complete with a harrowing and piercing scream into the void;
    9)  1990--Tom Purcell beats the shit out of Dan O'Brien (highlighted by a stellar flying nut kick), and then either Tom kills Dan that night, or Harris James kills Dan at some point afterwards;
    10)  1990--Tom Purcell breaks into the Hoyt mansion, finds the shady-ass pink hellhole Julie was held in, and is either murdered by Harris James (and staged as a suicide), or commits suicide;
    11)  1990--Wayne and Roland beat the hell out of Harris James, then murder him, and try to cover it up like total fucking amateurs;
    12)  1990--Edward Hoyt keeps Wayne from revealing (or pursuing) the truth by blackmailing him with knowledge of Harris James' murder and threatening Wayne and his family;
    13)  1995--The nuns stage a fake burial for Julie with a contrived death due to HIV;
    14)  1997--Watts finds out Julie's alive and well, and she ends up "happily ever after" with that kid who had a crush on her in 1980;
    15)  Watts feels sooooooooooo guilty about all of this that he starts idling his car by Wayne's house in...2015....but is too chicken to come inside, which leads Wayne to have dementia- and PTSD-related flashbacks to Vietnam and of ghosts all up in his shit in his own home.

    So...that one "innocent" accidental death of Will Purcell, that Watts helped Isabel Hoyt cover up that November night in 1980 while abducting poor Will's kid sister, turned out to be not-so-innocent after all.  Especially since it really didn't involve that many other guilty parties--just parties who got caught up in a shitstorm of consequences.

    And that's not even mentioning the non-fatal but extremely detrimental effects it had on Wayne, his marriage, his career, his kids, his kids' families, Roland, his relationship, and his career, etc.  Sure, Wayne and Roland ended up on a porch sipping ice tea and laughing softly at the end, but I think the last shot of the horrors of war, and the horrors of trauma and time ravaging one's mind, are much more likely to be the takeaway from this story.

    But great season.  Loved it.  
    mylifeaskirkhitmyPangsLeahra821
  • i enjoyed it. It was like BB as someone else said. It just wast not going to live up to expectations. We already knew the most of the story by the end of E6. it was just how they got there and what happened after. it was more of a wrap up with some new info sprinkled in. 

    on some side notes. some cool camera work. when they are going into the pink room the mirror on the floor shows a young roland and wayne. not old. also agree that Roland scene was the best of the episode. But he was moving pretty damn well for someone who was walking with a real limp in the same time period. 
    sarahtatuga
  • edited February 2019
    This makes the ending even more wholesome. Looks like Hays' family life wasn't as fraught as we thought. This also explains why the Wayne/Becca scene in the car seemed a little disjointed.


    Hatorianhisdudeness915DummyUnderwood
  • CoryCory New Scotland
    Why do people seem to think Watts found Julie alive in '97?

    He tells Wayne and Roland he finally caught up to her in '97, then they head out to the convent and find her grave, the stone saying she died in '95.  I assumed he had found the grave and thought she was dead.
  • "Why do people seem to think Watts found Julie alive in '97?

    He tells Wayne and Roland he finally caught up to her in '97, then they head out to the convent and find her grave, the stone saying she died in '95.  I assumed he had found the grave and thought she was dead. "

    I interpreted Watts saying he found Julie in 97 to mean that he tracked her down to the convent and the nuns told him the story about Julie being there but that she died of HIV.  If Watts found her alive, I'm not sure exactly what he would have done because i think Isabel was dead by then, so there would have been no point in dragging Julie back.

    telephoneofmadness, with regards to Harris James, i really do think that he did kill both Tom and Julie.  Yes, there isn't any concrete evidence but from what we do see, it really points to it being him.  Do you really think that Tom just kills himself if he learns the truth about what happened with Julie?  Do you really believe that Tom wouldn't have told someone/anyone about what he just learned?  Yes, Tom was a broken person but no chance he doesn't try to get the story out and there's no chance that Harris is going to let that happen either.  And the same thing sort of goes with Lucy.  Just seems way too convenient that Harris goes out to Vegas, Lucy dies, and then Harris immediately comes back.  It's possible, just like with Will, it was a giant accident, but without more info, it doesn't look good for Harris.  And it appears at that point in time, Lucy was a junkie and to get more drugs, junkies aren't exactly the most trusting people and Lucy could have been threatening to make information more public for all we know.  Now, you also mention Harris' wife/widow saying he was a good man and all but sorry, I don't take her word as proof either.  How many times do you watch the news and listen to a family member or friend claim up and down how their child/friend would never hurt anyone and was so nice and such (only to find out that this person is 100% guilty of the crimes they are charged with)?  So, of course his wife is going to say that he was a great and kind man.  Besides, if he was so innocent, then why didn't Hoyt push the issue of his "disappearance"?  Why did Hoyt let it slide (especially when he had proof of exactly where to find Harris based on GPS coordinates)?  To me, just another piece of evidence that Harris wasn't exactly as clean cut as some people think.

    Hatorian
  • S3 >= S1 for me.  Some of y’all are pretty nit picky.

    Hey, Nolan/Joy: this is how you manage multiple timelines in a reasonably entertaining way that isn’t terribly confusing for the viewer.  Take note.
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    edited February 2019
    I agree there was alot I’d exposition but I never felt Amelia was some supernatural force guiding Hays. It felt more like Amelia was simply his own thoughts communicated through him given 1st person narration is pretty much taboo in cinema, especially when he reads the book and starts connecting the dots. It feels that was more of simply hays internal monologue but just presented to the viewers through Hay’s Wife. 

    Also I called we would get a flash back to Vietnam. And every episode it became less and less likely it was going to happen. But it was awesome to see the final shot of him in Vietnam. Not sure what they were telling with that scene besides maybe him disappearing into the woods was a way to tell the audience that the Hays from the 80s and 90s finally left the past behind “him looking behind and then turning around and walking into the bush.”
  • I would rather Julie have a son named Tom because at least he cared. Lucy was a garbage human who does not deserve to have their grandchild named after them. Does Julie have fond memories of Lucy ... I cannot imagine so, so that was an unforced error in my opinion. Also Julie's phone call does not seem to make any sense with regards to what we know happened. That phone call seems like a cheap writing devise that does not make sense in regards to anything we saw Julie go through. They didn't even put in a 5 second scene of maybe Julie being indoctrinated into hating Tom while she was captive. That phone call is a really lazy writing devise in retrospect.
    PangsDee

  • Hays realized who she (Julie) was though, right? I feel like while he was drinking that water, his eyes said he had a realization mid-gulp why he was out at that house.

    Yea, I thought this too, but then they didn't really play it like that after that scene. It also seemed like he realized it on the porch with the kids riding the bike. I guess with dementia, both could be true.
    See I felt that he knew all along what he was doing and was playing up the dementia in this case as an excuse to get close enough to confirm what he thought and decided to not out her at all and leave it be.  Maybe I need to watch it again
  • ncat said:
    I would rather Julie have a son named Tom because at least he cared. Lucy was a garbage human who does not deserve to have their grandchild named after them. Does Julie have fond memories of Lucy ... I cannot imagine so, so that was an unforced error in my opinion. Also Julie's phone call does not seem to make any sense with regards to what we know happened. That phone call seems like a cheap writing devise that does not make sense in regards to anything we saw Julie go through. They didn't even put in a 5 second scene of maybe Julie being indoctrinated into hating Tom while she was captive. That phone call is a really lazy writing devise in retrospect.

    I get the logic here and kind of agree.  But i think the argument is that Julie was drugged for like 10 years and i thought they said a side effect from Lithium was memory loss, so it's possible that all of her memories have been really altered to the point that she really thinks her mom (Lucy) was wonderful and that her dad (Tom) was not.  Or, it could be on a subconscious level something about the name, Lucy, drew to her so hence she wanted to name her daughter that even if she didn't know why she was doing it.  But ultimately, i'd think having a son named Tom would have been a better choice. 
  • I really like this season but I'm not sure if I'd have the same opinion with different actors. Ali and Dorff were such a pleasure to watch together they could have saved almost any script.
    mylifeaskirk
  • @CapeGabe

    Season 2 actors with the season 3 story yields what??  I'm with you to some degree.
    mylifeaskirk
  • telephoneofmadness, with regards to Harris James, i really do think that he did kill both Tom and Julie.  Yes, there isn't any concrete evidence but from what we do see, it really points to it being him.  Do you really think that Tom just kills himself if he learns the truth about what happened with Julie?  Do you really believe that Tom wouldn't have told someone/anyone about what he just learned?  Yes, Tom was a broken person but no chance he doesn't try to get the story out and there's no chance that Harris is going to let that happen either.  And the same thing sort of goes with Lucy.  Just seems way too convenient that Harris goes out to Vegas, Lucy dies, and then Harris immediately comes back.  It's possible, just like with Will, it was a giant accident, but without more info, it doesn't look good for Harris.  And it appears at that point in time, Lucy was a junkie and to get more drugs, junkies aren't exactly the most trusting people and Lucy could have been threatening to make information more public for all we know.  Now, you also mention Harris' wife/widow saying he was a good man and all but sorry, I don't take her word as proof either.  How many times do you watch the news and listen to a family member or friend claim up and down how their child/friend would never hurt anyone and was so nice and such (only to find out that this person is 100% guilty of the crimes they are charged with)?  So, of course his wife is going to say that he was a great and kind man.  Besides, if he was so innocent, then why didn't Hoyt push the issue of his "disappearance"?  Why did Hoyt let it slide (especially when he had proof of exactly where to find Harris based on GPS coordinates)?  To me, just another piece of evidence that Harris wasn't exactly as clean cut as some people think.

    I'm not sure who Tom could have told. Not the police, FBI, etc., since they had already decided to frame him and close the case. Hoyt was not on their radar.

    In my head canon, Lucy runs out of money and wants drugs, calls Harris James a million times, he goes and gives her a bag of money and she overdoses. 

    From Hoyt's perspective Harris James's death was very convenient -- it meant Hoyt wouldn't have to worry about James exposing the Isabel/Julie stuff, and there was nothing to connect Hoyt to James's murder.
  • edited February 2019
    I enjoyed the finale, but I did sort of want more
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