Leaving Neverland

i tried looking for a thread but couldn’t find out. 

I always believed something was off about MJ but damn I didn’t think he was that sick. My heart breaks for those two men. 

My SO had a great theory on Culkin and Feldman. He never tried his antics on them bc they were his version of a “beard.”  They were famous in their own right and had abilities to be believed if they outed him. However, if he was around them and NOTHING happened, then they would have more clout than a nobody child/parents that could be painted as money hungry. 

Once he said it, it all made sense. 
ken hale
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Comments

  • DeeDee Adelaide
    Hey, long time no see! 

    I don’t know whether I am just more suspicious than most people, but I’ve believed he was a predator since way back in the early 90s with the first court case. There were just too many things that didn’t sit right - and it grossed me out that everyone just explained it all away by him being some kind of pixie man-child. I haven’t watched the doco because I don’t feel I need to - I’ve always believed those kids. 
    CretanBull
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    Yeah, it's a tough watch but I think it has firmly put those suspicions I always had about him to rest. He absolutely did this.

    I thought one of the most powerful moments was actually during the credits. Wade had mentioned earlier that one of the first times meeting MJ he told him could have anything out of his closet. And he took the Thriller jacket. THE Thriller jacket. And then at the end to see it being burned...wow.

    Seeing the pictures of him in his pajamas, hanging out in these people's homes while simultaneously being the biggest and most famous person on the planet was wild. That might have actually been the tipping point for me. That was when I thought "yeah, he's going to these lengths to get to these kids. He did this."
    BourbonQueen
  • Re: the discussion about enjoying Jackson’s creativity today/introducing other people to it. 
    It’s factual that he created things of great beauty that millions across the world enjoyed, and he inspired others to be creative themselves. 
    I predict that history will accept/forgive/forget the sins he committed against a small group of people directly, in favor of enjoying the fruits of his creativity without complication. 
  • Re: the discussion about enjoying Jackson’s creativity today/introducing other people to it. 
    It’s factual that he created things of great beauty that millions across the world enjoyed, and he inspired others to be creative themselves. 
    I predict that history will accept/forgive/forget the sins he committed against a small group of people directly, in favor of enjoying the fruits of his creativity without complication. 
    I think in time his art will outshine his crimes, but it's going to take a long, long time.  Like, I doubt if anyone knows about any creeping things that Franz Liszt might have gotten up to (I'm not implying that he did, I'm just picking someone at random who's music but not private life is commonly known), but for the foreseeable future MJ is going to be linked to being a sexual predator of children.
  • Teresa from ConcordTeresa from Concord Concord, California
    I own many MJ albums. Even have my Jackson 5 45’s with the yellow disc in the middle. But I will no longer listen to his music. There is no creativity great enough or music video brilliant enough to make me forget the manipulative, sick man he really was. And yes I am disappointed in myself for not listening to the allegations the first time. And yes I hope the estate makes 0 dollars from this day forward. 
    BourbonQueen
  • I mean, Michael Jackson was not that great. He just had a wider appeal to a white audience than a lot of other artists who came out of the same tradition.
    BourbonQueen
  • Oy. I have to admit I was in denial about the rumors. As someone who loved MJ's music as a kid and to this day, I wanted to believe the internet POV that if the FBI hadn't found anything after multiple investigations and after his death, that he was just a weird arrested development case. I can't believe that anymore. And I will be honest...if I didn't have two young kids of my own, I don't know if I'd be as receptive. I was hoping that, similar to Making a Murderer and Serial, that this was a biased documentary against someone who is dead and can't speak in his own defense. Fuck that, man. These kids couldn't speak in their own defense. 

    I still have not watched Leaving Neverland, but I plan to, As bad as I feel for the victims, there's something about the subject matter that I know will be hard to watch and something Several friends have told me the victims seem credible, and after listening to Jim and Aron's BaldMove TV episode, I'm swayed. While I am obviously not shocked bc I always it admitted MJ was a weird dude, I am saddened, betrayed, and a little bit sick about it. 

    I will prob still always love his music, but it will def change how I feel when I hear it. People should do whatever they are comfortable with when it comes to the artists work. Billie Jean is still a great song. Usual Suspects and Seven are still great movies with great performances by Kevin Spacey (although I can't watch his later "smug Spacey" performances anymore and American Beauty was always creepy to me).  Cosby Show was still groundbreaking. But my relationship with the material will definitely change. 
    CretanBullDeemylifeaskirkMFGBourbonQueentpelzy

  • CeciliaM said:
    I mean, Michael Jackson was not that great. He just had a wider appeal to a white audience than a lot of other artists who came out of the same tradition.
    I don't know how anyone can say that, really. You don't have to like his music, but minimizing his impact seems a bit off. If you ever watch one of his live DVD's, his talent as a performer a) is undeniable and b) had worldwide appeal. It wasn't just white people buying his album. 
    LandscrapingMurderbearDoubleA_RonNoelDeemylifeaskirkFrakkin TDoubleT
  • I also wonder if there were people around him that could have / should be held accountable, but were forced to be silent. Lisa Marie Presley, maybe? Security people? Someone had to know, right? 
    mylifeaskirkBourbonQueen
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    rkcrawf said:
    I also wonder if there were people around him that could have / should be held accountable, but were forced to be silent. Lisa Marie Presley, maybe? Security people? Someone had to know, right? 
    There is no way in hell he gets away with that for years like he did without a lot of help. There had to he quite a few people turning a blind eye for so long. Hell, I bet when he was sleeping over at those people's houses, there was probably a security detail sitting outside in an SUV waiting the entire time. As ridiculous as that sounds, it's either that or they dropped a thirty year old man off to have a pajama party with a child. It's all so fucked up.
    rkcrawf
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    edited March 11
    Years ago, one of my favorite bands (at least their first two albums) had their singer get arrested for some of the most heinous shit ever. Lostprophets was the band. (If curiosity gets the better of you to look up what he did, be warned. It's awful and you can never unknow it) I gave them a rest for a very long time before I ever tried listening again. And I can't. It's absolutely ruined. If it had been the guitarist or something, maybe I could listen but since it was the singer, every word just crept down my spine and I couldn't do it anymore.

    Obviously Michael Jackson is objectively a million times better than Lostprophets but I don't know. It's going to be very hard to hear him sing about love when he might be singing about a little boy. Maybe that's too harsh but you know that's what was in his heart.
    rkcrawfBourbonQueen
  • mtron32mtron32 San Diego
    Yeah, it's a tough watch but I think it has firmly put those suspicions I always had about him to rest. He absolutely did this.

    I thought one of the most powerful moments was actually during the credits. Wade had mentioned earlier that one of the first times meeting MJ he told him could have anything out of his closet. And he took the Thriller jacket. THE Thriller jacket. And then at the end to see it being burned...wow.

    Seeing the pictures of him in his pajamas, hanging out in these people's homes while simultaneously being the biggest and most famous person on the planet was wild. That might have actually been the tipping point for me. That was when I thought "yeah, he's going to these lengths to get to these kids. He did this."
    I was kind of the same but still listened to his music till a few years ago.  The man had an amusement park in his front yard and I remember being a kid and thinking: "If I were as rich and famous as MJ I'd recreate the playboy mansion instead of six flags but maybe that's just me." 
    rkcrawfLandscraping
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    CeciliaM said:
    I mean, Michael Jackson was not that great. He just had a wider appeal to a white audience than a lot of other artists who came out of the same tradition.
    Yeah, nah. I mean, I haven’t listened to his music for 25+ years because of this stuff, but even I have to admit it was groundbreaking back in the day. Thriller is objectively one of the greatest albums of all time. 
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    @Dee I actually thought about you and some of the Australian Bald Movers while watching this. I wondered if you remembered the whole Wade Robson thing from back in the day. Michael plucking one cute little Australian kid out of the country was probably a pretty big deal.
  • bizmarkiefaderbizmarkiefader San Francisco
    The reaction to this doc is really surprising to me. I thought the general consensus was already that he did all this stuff, maybe I just don't know enough big MJ fans
    BourbonQueen
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    @Dee I actually thought about you and some of the Australian Bald Movers while watching this. I wondered if you remembered the whole Wade Robson thing from back in the day. Michael plucking one cute little Australian kid out of the country was probably a pretty big deal.
    I don’t really remember hearing much about it in Australian media, but I’d already written MJ off by then so I wasn’t paying much attention to anything about him. There may well have been tabloid stories that I missed, but I think largely Wade was ignored, as the earliest time I ever even heard of him was a couple of years ago on Oh No They Didn’t (US-centric celebrity gossip website). 
    MurderbearBourbonQueen
  • hisdudeness915hisdudeness915 Atlanta, Ga
    rkcrawf said:

    CeciliaM said:
    I mean, Michael Jackson was not that great. He just had a wider appeal to a white audience than a lot of other artists who came out of the same tradition.
    I don't know how anyone can say that, really. You don't have to like his music, but minimizing his impact seems a bit off. If you ever watch one of his live DVD's, his talent as a performer a) is undeniable and b) had worldwide appeal. It wasn't just white people buying his album. 
    This is 100% true. I had a supervisor a while back that grew up in Germany and he is still a die hard MJ fan to this day. I don’t think anything could sway him. Perhaps I should give him a call? However, I don’t think he would even watch the documentary 
  • mtron32mtron32 San Diego
    The reaction to this doc is really surprising to me. I thought the general consensus was already that he did all this stuff, maybe I just don't know enough big MJ fans
    I think it was the details of abuse and of the grooming that set everyone off.  Before it wasn't in your face like it is with that 4 hour viewing, I felt like Chris Hansen was about to knock down my door during the first part.  
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    Yeah, I think a lot of people have the luxury of being able to think "yeah, it probably happened" and not really think about it much more. Chock it up to his upbringing and just being a general creepy weirdo. But like @mtron32 said, being confronted with it really opens your eyes. It didn't take too long into the doc for me before that thought turned to "Holy shit. He DID do it."
    rkcrawf
  • I’m at the gym and it took me almost the entire song to realize they were playing “Don’t stop till you get enough” and I was grooving to it. Arguably the grossest song of his now. Ugh. 
  • Dee said:
    CeciliaM said:
    I mean, Michael Jackson was not that great. He just had a wider appeal to a white audience than a lot of other artists who came out of the same tradition.
    Yeah, nah. I mean, I haven’t listened to his music for 25+ years because of this stuff, but even I have to admit it was groundbreaking back in the day. Thriller is objectively one of the greatest albums of all time. 
    These things are matters of opinion and perspective, surely. Michael Jackson didn't spring out of nowhere. There are plenty of other R&B, pop and soul artists to listen to if one would like to stop listening to Michael Jackson forever. 

    But I always thought he was overrated even when I was a kid, haha
  • Kind of crazy going down the La Toya rabbit hole on YouTube after all this.

  • Teresa from ConcordTeresa from Concord Concord, California
    Tom said:
    Kind of crazy going down the La Toya rabbit hole on YouTube after all this.

    La Toya the voice of reason? Welcome to realities version of Stranger Things. 
    majjam0770
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    Honestly why are we so surprised? The dude made a song about how BAD he was...
    ChinaskiCeciliaM
  • I got halfway through the first episode and had to turn it off.  Not that it was bad or anything, but it became a really hard watch.  I've mentioned before that years ago I had to work with pedophiles, the one thing that you don't internalize - even when you hear them talk about their crimes - is the victims themselves.
    DeeCeciliaMrkcrawf
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    I'm going to come clean here and embarrassingly admit I was one of these Michael Jackson denialists.  I can't believe it's already been pretty much a decade since his passing.  I remember when he died, the whole past was brought up and re-litigated again on the court of public opinion.  And me, being a child of the 80s who rode the Captain EO ride at Epcot, and grew up wearing out the thriller cassette my teenage uncle had...I couldn't accept it.  "He's just weird, broken childhood, eccentric" etc, all that stuff. 

    Even in 2014 that latest hit was released posthumously w/ Justin Timberlake, Love Never Felt So Good, I was like "wow...this is amazing. What a pop genius.  How many more of these gems are laying in the treasure chest of unreleased Michael Jackson recordings?"  2014, man, that was the feel good jam.  Now I'm pretty certain I can't listen to that song anymore.  After getting through Pt 1 of the documentary, that song resonates super gross to me now.  

    We're through Pt 1 after last night, which was extremely difficult to get through.  Sick to your stomach feelings during some of the testimony.  Honestly I didn't want to watch it until the BM podcast that recommended watching if you're a parent.  I got an almost 7 yr old and almost 4 yr old. Both boys.  So the Wade testimony was pretty fucking horrific.  This is why I still accompany my kid when he has to use a public restroom. 

    And I get why A.Ron said it's hard for these mentally ill people to seek help.  Because I also totally get Jim saying "if that happened to my kid I would fucking kill the person."  Like in True Detective Season 1 when Marty Hart blasted Reggie Ledoux's brains out?  Admit it, right?  It felt righteous.  And look it up, the guy Gary Plauche?  Kind of a hero in my eyes if I'm being completely honest.  I'd do 5 years.  The Dad of the gymnast who tried to bum-rush Larry Nassar in court....the other gymnast Dad who killed himself cause he couldn't handle the feeling of guilt. 

    This documentary is just a ton of nightmare fuel for a parent of some young ones and after Pt 2, I need to figure out how to wash my brain of this while also retaining some knowledge of what to look out for.  Ugh.  Double ugh.   
    DeeCeciliaMgguenotBourbonQueenrkcrawf
  • I was at the casino last night and "P.Y.T." came on the music they blast... Barf 
  • @cdrive
    I don't mean to be flippant in any way. I'm not a parent, so I try not to judge other parents. But isn't it completely unbelievable that parents would let their kids sleep over and spend so much private time with a grown adult man ??? I feel like no normal person would do that. I know kids are often molested by people they know without the parents' knowledge and in those cases I don't blame the parents, but in this case I truly have to wonder. 
  • CeciliaM said:
    @cdrive
    I don't mean to be flippant in any way. I'm not a parent, so I try not to judge other parents. But isn't it completely unbelievable that parents would let their kids sleep over and spend so much private time with a grown adult man ??? I feel like no normal person would do that. I know kids are often molested by people they know without the parents' knowledge and in those cases I don't blame the parents, but in this case I truly have to wonder. 
    I can’t think of a scenario where I would allow them to fax/email to the extent of what was going on, let alone sleep in the same house alone, LET ALONE SLEEP IN THE SAME BED 
    CeciliaM
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    edited March 13
    CeciliaM said:
    @cdrive
    I don't mean to be flippant in any way. I'm not a parent, so I try not to judge other parents. But isn't it completely unbelievable that parents would let their kids sleep over and spend so much private time with a grown adult man ??? I feel like no normal person would do that. I know kids are often molested by people they know without the parents' knowledge and in those cases I don't blame the parents, but in this case I truly have to wonder. 
    It’s indefensible.  But I would also say that MJ had his grooming technique down to a science.  Not just towards the victim but grooming towards the victim’s family.  That’s what the film really showed as well. MJ would suss out these families that were susceptible and would abandon their normal red flags under his star power and grooming.

    After finishing Pt 2 last night we started into the Oprah special covering Leaving Neverland, which was a live interview of the 2 victims and the director in front of an entire audience of abuse victims.  So going a step further on the grooming and how could these parents let their guard down on such fundamental barriers, Wade made a comment that got the entire crowd to sort of collectively murmur and stir in agreement by stating that he really felt his grooming started before he even met Michael. 

    And I was like, god damn if he isn't right.  Unintentionally MJ has been grooming kids since he was in the Jackson 5.  The target audience was preteens to young adults, but it was most certainly towards kids too.  Hey look at this cute little kid that can dance like James Brown.  Then more intentionally in the 80s under his solo career, look at the kid dancing like MJ in '87 Smooth Criminal video, and in '88 the Badder video which did the whole Bad video but with kids.  "We are the world, we are the children" in '85.  In '90 at age 7 Wade like many kids were already heavily marketed to.  MJ was God. MJ was safe.  MJ had a ride at Disneyland. Disneyland is safe.

    MJ groomed the entire world.  Public Safety Commendation Award in 1984 presented to MJ by our President of the United States Ronald Reagan. Princess Diana during the '88 Bad Tour.  Every single celebrity in the USA for Africa video.  He had the entire world believing he was harmless and many powerful people to vouch for that.  




    FlukesDeeA_Ron_Hubbard
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