So how is GOT gonna end?

tpelzytpelzy Dallas
edited April 17 in Game of Thrones
I was going to email A.Ron, and then I remembered that I already wrote him an email on this exact topic almost three years ago. So I'll just put this here with some of my new thoughts. I've been thinking a lot about the the themes of the show/ASOIAF, is GOT trying to "say" anything, and what's the ending going to look like. I assume that D&D know how the books end and are trying to get as close to that as possible. 

There are basically infinite amounts of elements and themes to this story. I'm just going to list the ones I think are most important to the endgame. 

Frodo, ...were not in Kansas anymore. 

This quote pretty much says it all. 
The war that Tolkien wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and that’s become the template. I’m not sure that it’s a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that.

Violence is not the answer!

ASOIAF is kind of an anit-war story. GRRM goes to great lengths to show the human cost and the toll it takes on the everyday people of Westeros. War never resolves conflict on Planetos it only lays the ground for the next conflict. Virtually all the characters are wrapped up in a cycle of vengeance just creates more vengeance with no end in sight. The climax of the story might involve someone choosing peace over war and mercy over vengeance. 

The Others are the other. 

The White Walkers, in my opinion, represent the sociological concept of the other. From Wikipedia...

The practice of Othering is the exclusion of persons who do not fit the norm of the social group, which is a version of the Self. Likewise, in human geography, to other an individual identifies and excludes them from the social group, placing them at the margins of society where social norms do not apply.

Almost every faction in the story engages in othering. If the Night's Watch and the Wildlings can learn to humanize each other, is it that much of a stretch to extend that to the WWs? The little background we get on the WWs often serves to humanize them. Think about Craster's son, the first WW, and Uncle Benjen/Cold hands (though Benjen is closer to a wight than a WW).

Bittersweet

GRRM said the ending would be bittersweet. 

The Last Hero didn't defeat the WWs and neither will the New Hero

This is just a theory. All the myths about the long night suggest that humanity learned to use dragon glass/valyrian steel, and wiped out the WWs. That just doesn't ring true. They didn't even have dragons. Also, just killing the Night King and instantly saving the day seems kinda boring. 

But who knows? Maybe Jon or Arya or even Sam will stab the Night King in the back and everybody will live happily ever after. What do you guys think? 

Edit: 

I found a theory fits the description above. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_0ag77_HG4

I don't believe it lol, but it definitely works with the themes of the books and show. It also would be a very satisfying, non-tropey ending, at least for me. 

1. You literally can't get any further from Tolkien than by making your Big Bad also one of the protagonists of the story. 

2. It doesn't involve killing the Nightking in some final climactic battle. Btw, if that's what we end up getting I'm going to be genuinely bored and let down. 

3. It totally humanizes the Others in a tragic way. 

4. Call that shit cranberry juice cause it's bittersweet af. 

5. If Bran is also the Last Hero that could maybe explain why humanity defeated the WWs without totally destroying them. Imagine how many things Bran might have to try to fix the timeline. 

One caveat to all the "Bran to the Future" theories is that the do kind of rob the story of it's significance. Think of all the characters who've died, sacrificed and done terrible things just so Bran could snap his fingers and fix it all in the end. 

Another caveat, GOT seems to have a particular kind of time travel. Someone should ask GRRM what he thinks about solutions to the Grandfather Paradox. I bet he doesn't think any of them are valid. As the 3ER said, “The Past is Already Written. The Ink is Dry. So any actions that a time traveler does have always already happened. To put it in a more confusing way, if Bran goes back in time to kill himself, then how can he be alive to go back in time to kill himself?  To put it simply there's a chain of dominoes that would bring Bran to point were he can travel to the past, but he can't move any of those dominoes without breaking logic or the fabric of the universe. (It could be the case that D&D don't care about any of this or don't have enough details to make a logical ending involving time travel. Hopefully GRRM laid it all out for them.) I would love to see a time travel theory does work logically. 


Kate23telephoneofmadnessElisaFlukes
«134

Comments

  • A.Ron mentioned the theory that the White Walkers are invading because the humans have broken some kind of ancient contract. I think part of the contract was giving the White Walkers baby boys to turn into male White Walkers, and the other part was that every so-many years the humans need to give the White Walkers a human queen to turn into a Night's Queen. So I think the story will end with Dany being turned into a Night's Queen and ruling north of the Wall. Cersei will die and Jon will become King, legitimize Gendry, step down and become King in the North while Gendry rules in the south.

    Another idea A.Ron mentioned was democracy in Planetos. The contract with the White Walkers will mean that democracy isn't possible in Westeros, but maybe Essos will be made an autonomous region and Tyrion and Varys will go there and become the first Presidents of Essos, or something.
  • tpelzy said:
    Also, just killing the Night King and instantly saving the day seems kinda boring. 

    But who knows? Maybe Jon or Arya or even Sam will stab the Night King in the back and everybody will live happily ever after. What do you guys think? 

    I wonder if the Faceless Men could be hired to kill the White Walkers. Seems like a win-win, since if they fail, you've eliminated a really dangerous group from Planetos.
  • Not a book reader....I don't recall anyone saying the WW were wiped out, only that they were gone. And then Osha, who was right about everything, said they were only sleeping.

    I honestly think it's because, after the longest summer, the longest winter is coming, AND that there was a coming changing over of the 3ER. Because I also think the NK, being like a flip of the 3ER, had foreknowledge of this happening. And knowing this, he's ramping up his army. So I also think the "defeat" of the NK must be at the Isle of Faces. Bran has to make it there. Maybe the NK himself becomes the 3ER by killing Bran, who knows.
    But for some reason the NK had to get past the wall...he could've easily overcome Bran north of the wall, which is why I think he's headed toward a specific location (Isle of Faces).

    So I believe Jon and Dany etc etc will fight and win the war for the living, but it will be Bran who somehow stops the NK. Maybe that means the living leave Westeros to the NK, and they go back to Essos and Dragons Bay to continue to defeat slavery there. This part seems the most far fetched to me though. 
    Elisa
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    Yub Nub
    TravisDummybudesigns
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    @Kate23 The Isle of Faces is a pretty deep pull. I would be surprised if the show's NK cares at all about it or even in being the 3ER. He is way more powerful than that. (Or at least what we've seen so far. Maybe Bran will unleash something huge. More than warging/skinchanging or seeing past events)
    Kate23Elisa
  • We've already been over this. GoT ends with the birth of Drs. Wiley and Light.
    Murderbeartpelzy
  • tpelzytpelzy Dallas
    Yeah I don't think we'll go to the Isle of Faces this season. My guess is that D&D are going to use Bran's vision to sum up a lot of story lines form future books. The first WW scene probably happens on the Isle of Faces, and I think that's all we're gonna get. Also, the Isle of Faces is heavily connected to The Children and they're all gone. 
    ElisaTravis
  • tpelzytpelzy Dallas
    edited March 19
    Kate23 said:
    Not a book reader....I don't recall anyone saying the WW were wiped out, only that they were gone. And then Osha, who was right about everything, said they were only sleeping.

    The Westerosi version the myth includes the Battle for the Dawn where the WWs were finally defeated, which maybe implies they were wiped out. In the show it seems like mostly northerners still believe the old myths. I believe in book one Ned says that the WWs are all dead just like the Children. People in the south probably aren't sure if they even existed. The wildlings are the closest to the WWs and most likely to know they're still around. 
    ElisaTravis
  • Forget how it ends.. I’m here for a Sean Bean flashback.
    ElisasamartianTravis
  • Everyone lives happily ever after?
    cdriveElisaTravisFlukes
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX

    tpelzysamartianTravis
  • FreddyFreddy Denton, Texas
    I fucking hate Phish. Didn't have the sound on, but based on the dancing...
    DoubleA_RonTravisbudesigns
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX

    I fucking hate Phish. Didn't have the sound on, but based on the dancing...
    Lol it’s someone apparently called Santigold, but yes! Phish drugs on  Dance Party Patient 0




    Travis
  • Oh, that's at the Gorge! Very interesting venue in the middle of NOOOOOWHERE but with killer moonscape views.
    Travis
  • DoubleA_RonDoubleA_Ron San Diego
    Freddy said:
    I fucking hate Phish. Didn't have the sound on, but based on the dancing...
    I wish I could like this comment more than once
    FreddysamartianTravis
  • Teresa from ConcordTeresa from Concord Concord, California
    Now back to our regularly scheduled program
    Murderbearcdrive
  • tpelzytpelzy Dallas
    cdrive said:

    For some reason I thought the first guy was Aiden Gillen haha. I love how this thread has completely gone left lol.
    cdriveTravis
  • tpelzytpelzy Dallas
    CeciliaM said:
    Everyone lives happily ever after?
    @CeciliaM don't joke about that lol. I assume D&D are trying to be faithful to GRRM's vision. But I'm a little afraid that we might just get the "Disney" version of the book ending. 
  • tpelzy said:
    CeciliaM said:
    Everyone lives happily ever after?
    @CeciliaM don't joke about that lol. I assume D&D are trying to be faithful to GRRM's vision. But I'm a little afraid that we might just get the "Disney" version of the book ending. 
    I mean.. Disney never had so much blood and gore and prostitution so I think we're safe lol
    Travis
  • TravisTravis CA
    edited March 23
    Dawn of the great battle, everyone is lined up to fight. Jon and the Night's King are across from each other on the battlefield, ready to square off:

    Jon: You're being so mean! Why are you so mean?!
    NK: You guys are mean to me! Why are you so mean to me?! I only kill people and turn them into zombies because you guys are jerks and never invite me over for wine. When was the last time I was invited to joust against the Mountain? When was the last time Tyrion called me up to hang out at the brothel? Spoiler alert: NEVER!
    Jon: I guess we haven't been very nice to you. I'm sorry.
    NK: Look, I get it too. Maybe I overreacted and should have talked with words instead of stealing babies and zombifying your friends and your girlfriend's dragon. I'm sorry too.
    Jon: Best friends?
    NK: Like... Forever!!!

    High Five!
    Bran: I found a new pet giraffe! I will be its brain.
    Jon and NK in unison: PIZZA FOR EVERYBODY!
    Kate23telephoneofmadnesstpelzycdriveOldGriswold
  • CeciliaM said:
    Everyone lives happily ever after?
    I hope so. I've sunk a lot of time into this show and now I want my happy ending, damn it.
    TravisCeciliaM
  • I think we're in for Dani breaking the wheel and Jon dying climactic-ly in the process type of endgame. I think we're going to lose Arya too. Just a feeling. I don't think it's going to be a TOTAL bloodbath, but I bet we lose a bunch of the sort of "major-minor" characters. I know it feels counter-intuitive, but I feel like Jaime survives.
  • I guess a lot of people will probably die, but I don't want any more Starks to die. Haven't they suffered enough? 

    People who are I am OK if they die (this doesn't include obvious villians like the Night King)
    Cersei and Jaime, obvi
    Varys
    Any and all Greyjoys
    That little girl who is the queen of her station in the north
    Gilly (sorry)

    People I oddly don't care one way or the other if they live or die
    Dany (It would actually be kind of cool if she became the ice queen people have speculated about)
    Samwell Tarly
    Jorah Mormont
    A bunch of other people I am probably forgetting right now, kill em all

    People I really don't want to die:
    Any Starks (including Jon Snow)
    Gilly's baby (I mean he is just a baby)
    The Hound
    Brienne of Tarth and the redheaded dude who likes her
    Tyrion 

    I hope Sansa ends up on the Iron Throne because I have started to think of Game of Thrones as the evolution of Sansa.

    budesignsjenetee
  • Teresa from ConcordTeresa from Concord Concord, California
    I read an interesting speculation that the Song of Ice and Fire is really a song, and not Dany or Jon, etc. And that the song defeats the white walkers. It does make me laugh to imagine who would be seeing this song? Dear god don't let it be Ed Sheeran!!
    CeciliaM
  • I read an interesting speculation that the Song of Ice and Fire is really a song, and not Dany or Jon, etc. And that the song defeats the white walkers. It does make me laugh to imagine who would be seeing this song? Dear god don't let it be Ed Sheeran!!
     :D  :D

    oh man that’s funny. 

    Bronn breaks out in song and and the dead stop...er...dead in their tracks. I guess that’s what Jaime was yelling from the battlements...cuing Bronn to start singing....
    Teresa from Concord
  • tpelzytpelzy Dallas
    CeciliaM said:
    I guess a lot of people will probably die, but I don't want any more Starks to die. Haven't they suffered enough? 

    Unfortunately I Sansa may be the only Stark left in the end.

    Westeros is not ADA compliant lol. There's a lot of ways to die in a battle for humanity, even with two good legs. I think even if Bran isn't physically killed he will end up permanently stuck in the Weirwood net by the end of the show. 

    Arya is drinking the Many Faced God's koolaid so I think shes a goner. 

    For Jon, I'm just going to go with another trope from GOT and literature in general. You can't cheat death forever. That goes literally from Sisyphus to Final Destination lol. Unless you are actually Jesus H. Christ then the Grim Reaper will get you eventually. Same goes for the Hound unfortunately. 
    CeciliaM
  • tpelzytpelzy Dallas
    edited March 25
    I read an interesting speculation that the Song of Ice and Fire is really a song...
    That's an ok theory. It feels pretty anti-climactic tho. I don't love any the theories that reference the title, ASOIAF, directly.  I think the title is a reference to "Fire and Ice" by Robert Frost. It was written post WWI with apocalyptic themes and analogizes desire (love) and hate with fire and ice. 

    Edit: Just remembered the term song can refer to a story that is traditionally sung out loud. The Iliad aka the Song of Ilion is probably the most famous real world example. In universe there are a couple examples like The Reynes of Castamere etc. 
  • Danny’s sitting at a table at the Inn at the Crossroads and Hot Pie serves her an ale. She sees John, Jorah, and Tyrion come through the door while “Don’t Stop Believing” is being sung by the Lannister Soldiers Quartettte featuring Ed Sherman. Theyre eating and laughing together when the screen goes black.
    Teresa from ConcordFreddytpelzycdriveMurderbearCeciliaM
  • I've seen the last episode actually, sorry for spoilers but it ends with Varys looking solemnly at Dany as she sits on the iron throne and him saying:

    "Every year, I took a holiday. I went to Volantis, there's this cafe, on the banks of the Rhoyne. Every fine evening, I'd sit there and order a Fernet Branca. I had this fantasy, that I would look across the tables and I'd see you there, with The King in the North and maybe a couple of Dragons. You wouldn't say anything to me, nor me to you. But we'd both know that you'd made it, that you were happy. I never wanted you to come back to Kings Landing. I always knew there was nothing here for you, except pain and tragedy. And I wanted something more for you than that. I still do."

    MurderbearCeciliaMjenetee
  • Working theory - ice could be the sword that has to be reforged from Widow’s Wail and Oathkeeper but can only be done so with dragon fire - creating Lightbringer? 
    Murderbear
Sign In or Register to comment.