Avengers Endgame - Full Spoiler discussion

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  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    From reddit...

    hisdudeness915BloodyTacoAnominalDoubleA_RonAww_PHuuCkrkcrawf
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited April 27
    First. Loved the movie, but I agree Infinity War was better in terms of tonal consistency and pacing. A perfect Fantasy Epic set in the MCU. Endgame was a time travel movie that had such extreme tonal moods that it doesn't feel as cohesive. But still a great movie. The characters that were leaving, they showed them at their best, which left Thor open to be goofy and transition to a place in life and tone to fit with the Guardians crew which should be fantastic. Infinity War was better, but as a closing movie to this 22 movie arc, it's still pretty fantastic.

    But I want to talk about people's concepts of the time travel in the movie. I thought it was pretty clear that there is only one singular timeline. No branches, no alternate realities.

    (And Spider-Man and friends who were snapped have to resume high school. They were brought forward in time, but they weren't aged and magically implanted with five years of high school and college teaching and experience.)

    There is only one timeline.

    The whole premise of the movie hinges on there being one timeline and they repeat it multiple times. The plan is to put back the stones so history as they know it remains unaffected. They bring the Snapped to the present rather than rewind time five years so history remains unaffected. They cannot go back in time to kill baby Thanos because history has to remain unaffected (more on this later). The Ancient One concedes the point to Bruce that reality will be fine and there will be no branched realities as long as they return the Stones to the proper time periods. It's why we can't bring Vision or Black Widow back.

    So what about plot point XYZ?

    Cap vs Cap - Captain America fights himself and wins by spilling the secret that Bucky is alive. He's not supposed to know that and is changing his own history... but then he immediately uses the Mind Stone to wipe that knowledge back out of himself. Problem solved. As for spilling the secret that "he's Hydra"? They'll hear that Loki escaped, stole the Tesseract, and that their Captain America fought what he believed to be Loki disguised as himself.

    Old Cap - Captain America as his last stop after returning the Stones and Mjolnir returns to Peggy Carter and reveals he's alive, and tells her the importance that no one can know and that he has to keep some secrets from her to preserve the win or else 50% of the universe dies. She is Director of SHIELD. She can easily give him a new identity, and he can be the husband we've heard about but never seen. Believing there is an alternate reality is where confusion happens. He didn't jump realities, he just went to the past and changed his name. What we don't see is how Tesseract returns to SHIELD hands, but that could happen in all kinds of ways and I don't think it's that important. The scene may also have been a jump off point for the Loki Disney Plus show.

    Howard Stark meeting Tony - This shouldn't have to be explained, but at least one person on reddit thought it was weird that Howard wouldn't look at his teenage son, and he think looks like that weird 40s+ year old (I don't know how old Tony Stark is supposed to be) that he met for a brief moment over a decade ago and make the connection that they were the same person. That would be bonkers if he did make that connection and it doesn't need explaining.

    Young Nebula dying - Did she die? I kind of just assumed that she was incapacitated but not dead. She'll full of robot parts, I don't think it's a stretch to say she wasn't definitively killed.

    Young Thanos dying - This is the big one. This one isn't explicitly stated and not even implied well. This is the one this that had me scratching my head in the moment. The only thing that I can say is that because they were so set in trying to make it clear about how time travel doesn't work like those other movies, we can make some inferences. (Trying to explain how there is only one timeline in the most confusing way possible in an attempt to be comedic didn't help their case in clearing time travel up for the audience.)

    If baby Thanos cannot die because that changes why they're even coming up with the plan to stop Thanos in the first place, it prevents the Snap from every happening, then Young Thanos cannot be permanently killed and must also return to the time he was taken from to resume his collection of the Stones. We also know that the Snapped 50% of the universe were safely transported five years into the future. Put those together and there are a couple options.

    1) We did see it happen. Tony snapped his fingers and didn't kill Thanos and army, and he actually sent them back to where they came from probably with their memory of their stay in the future clouded or wiped. And so Thanos resumes his search for the Stones.

    2) It hasn't happened yet. Someone in the future beyond this movie, who understands time travel, reassembles the full gauntlet. Someone who has the power to use it and sends Snapped Thanos and company back to the past, just like the Snapped 50% were brought to present. Thanos resumes his quest to collect the Stones. Out of the people we know, Doctor Strange makes the most sense in having the knowledge and ability and ethical and professional responsibility to pull this off. But it could someone unseen so far in the MCU. There is at least one Avengers villain who could fit that idea. I don't know that it will ever be explicitly stated, and that's sad. A one sentence comment by Tony or Dr. Strange solves it all.

    Side Note: Thanos' plan - Assuming he's also working on a singular timeline theory. His plan is genius. He sees the recording of his death and he immediately understands that doesn't mean he lost. His current self can go to the future of that moment and ensure his victory, come back to the past and resume his quest with the knowledge that he won. That he is inevitable. His assumption is ultimately proven wrong, but he believes it to be true.

    Past Gamora in Present Day - Assuming incapacitated Nebula was dusted/sent back in time with Thanos, this is the last lingering plot thread. Obviously it's because they want to leave it open to have a Gamora in Guardians of the Galaxy 3, and it's something that will have to be solved later.

    What we didn't see

    Captain America returning the Soul Stone and his reaction to being greeted by the Red Skull.

    (Side Note: I was expecting that returning the Soul Stone would return Black Widow. And when Captain America goes back in the end, I was expecting Black Widow to return in his place. That would have made perfect sense to me, but I guess they're done with her after her movie.)
  • Natter CastNatter Cast San Francisco, CA
    Endgame spoiler? Well I, for one, couldn't believe that Duncan beheaded Kell at the end. I so totally didn't see that coming.
  • hisdudeness915hisdudeness915 Atlanta, Ga
    edited April 27
    Changing the subject a bit but Cap catching Mjolnir might be favorite moment of the entire MCU. Goddamn that had me geeking out so hard.  My previous fav was Hulk’s “I’m always angry” in the first Avengers. 
    GBraltarkcrawf
  • GBraltaGBralta San Diego, CA
    Cap catching Mjolnir might be favorite moment of the entire MCU. 
    Same here. I sat straight up and started clapping. When he started spinning it a woman behind me screamed "What the F*ck is happening!?!?!" People could not contain themselves.
    hisdudeness915DummyAnominalMurderbear
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited April 28
    Hammer Cap and Hail Hydra were two stand out Captain America moments. But I'm sad though that between this movie and Infinity War we really didn't get much with his relationship with Bucky. They had Cap psyching himself out with the Bucky is alive secret as a nod to it, but the two never got a good-bye or side-by-side moment really. Captain America leaving means it's also the end of that relationship which was so important in the solo trilogy. Peter Parker got all his moments with Tony, I wish Bucky had the same.
    majjam0770
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    GBralta said:
    Cap catching Mjolnir might be favorite moment of the entire MCU. 
    Same here. I sat straight up and started clapping. When he started spinning it a woman behind me screamed "What the F*ck is happening!?!?!" People could not contain themselves.

    Haha, yeah, I saw it again with my boy and some of his friends, and people lost their mind when Cap picks it up, and when he landed that first hammer uppercut on Thanos the place erupted.
    gguenot
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    I just came in here to run around hi-fiving everyone.

    We just got out about an hr ago.  Amazing. I’m still processing what just got thrown at my eyeballs.  And I’m still getting used to firm ground after getting off that 3hr 4DX mechanical bull ride. 
    gguenot
  • GBralta said:
    Cap catching Mjolnir might be favorite moment of the entire MCU. 
    Same here. I sat straight up and started clapping. When he started spinning it a woman behind me screamed "What the F*ck is happening!?!?!" People could not contain themselves.

    Haha, yeah, I saw it again with my boy and some of his friends, and people lost their mind when Cap picks it up, and when he landed that first hammer uppercut on Thanos the place erupted.
    I want to see it again just so I can relive my theater experience. There were people standing for parts of it cheering
    rkcrawf
  • Changing the subject a bit but Cap catching Mjolnir might be favorite moment of the entire MCU. Goddamn that had me geeking out so hard.  My previous fav was Hulk’s “I’m always angry” in the first Avengers. 
    I definitely had the geeking out moment during the Captain America and Mjolnir part. I'm seeing it again tonight but I still think my favorite "badass" moment is when Thor lands in Wakanda and yells "bring me Thanos" and then proceeds to smash the ground with Storm breaker. 
  • hisdudeness915hisdudeness915 Atlanta, Ga
    Changing the subject a bit but Cap catching Mjolnir might be favorite moment of the entire MCU. Goddamn that had me geeking out so hard.  My previous fav was Hulk’s “I’m always angry” in the first Avengers. 
    I definitely had the geeking out moment during the Captain America and Mjolnir part. I'm seeing it again tonight but I still think my favorite "badass" moment is when Thor lands in Wakanda and yells "bring me Thanos" and then proceeds to smash the ground with Storm breaker. 
    That is my number three. The only thing that gives the Hulk moment the 2 spot is the Avengers Assemble camera pan that happens seconds after he stops that alien worm dead in his tracks
    awookiee
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    edited April 28
    Wow. I absolutely loved it! Smart Hulk and Fat Thor were fantastic. I see some people complaining that he was fat too long but I'm really glad he didn't just show up in some scene super cut and sporting 18-pack abs. I think it's awesome they stuck with his feeling defeated and it's a pretty great send up for that character. And obviously Cap swinging Mjolnir was amazing. We've all been waiting for that ever since Cap nudged it in Age of Ultron. Fantastic moment. And while I'm talking about Thor, so glad to see the Asgardians of the Galaxy ride again! I would love it if he was just in the crew for when they make part 3.

    Overall though, it was an amazing end to a ten year 20 something movie journey. I was surprised we didn't lose more people but I am glad we did not. I think I cried four different times in this movie and I think that was plenty. Honestly though, I could watch the four and a half hour version of this film where every character gets their due and a bit of time to shine and eat up every second of it.
    gguenotrkcrawfmajjam0770
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    edited April 28
    Could’ve used a little less Gwenith Paltrow toward the end there but I guess that was inevitable.  Paul Rudd is my spirit animal so I loved all the Ant Man bits. “Hot tube time machine.” When he expanded into a giant from inside that ship. When giant Ant Man cold cocked tha fuck out of one of those giant worms.  I could write 20 more sentences starting with “When” about that movie.  Lots of people were losing their minds in our theater. It was fun to see everyone getting worked up. 


    Murderbearmajjam0770
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited April 28
    I can't stop thinking about this movie. I think I'm going to watch it again tomorrow morning. I haven't done that in a long time. The five year jump is so brilliant. Plenty of audible gasps and yells when the text appeared on screen. I love the way it created added pressure on Tony in the beginning, and even though I expected Tony Stark to die at the end especially because of the baby talk in Infinity War, to have a five year old daughter as a character really worked to manipulate my emotions instead of just a baby on the way. The cheese burger talk on the bench at the end was perfect. I love it 3000.
    gguenotMurderbear
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    I thought it was incredible and my wife was an absolute mess after the movie. Tony talking to his little girl at the end through his record message got me, because I see every little girl as my own 4 year old daughter. 

    *I did have questions.

    So... what happened to the past version of Gamora who travelled to the present with Thanos? She meets present day Peter Quill and smacks him around a little, then we dont see her again at the end.

    Did Tony dust everyone who travelled from the past to present day with Thanos (which would have been all bad guys except for Gamora)?
    Obviously Peter Quill and the GotG would want the Gamora who was killed in Infinity War to come back since she is the one who has memories and experiences with them. But that Gamors, I assume, was inside of the Soul stone that Thanos destroyed before having his head chopped off.


    I still dont understand how they reset everything in the past timelines by returning the stones right before they were taken or whatever. They changed a lot more than just taking the stones. Seems like that would have been almost impossible without changing those timelines. I mean, they knocked 2014 Quill out in the past. Loki disappeared with a space stone before they could take him, so did Cap return another space stone to 2012 or did he just take iit to 1970, and so the 2012 version of the space stone is simply now with 2012 Loki who was now never imprisoned by the Asgardiands (therefore changing everything including Thor: The Dark World)? 2014 Thanos, his army, Gamora and Nebula literally travelled to the future and were dusted away. You cant undo those things. They were changed forever in some timelines, but they acted like they were preventing different timelines from branching out. I dont know, it may have been better to just snap and undo everything to the way it was before the original snap. 

    Also, the idea that this apocalyptic Earth would return to semi-normalcy by the time the new Spider-man movie comes out is absurd. And many millions would still be dead for those who died as a consequence of the snap but didnt dust away in the snap itself.
    Murderbearmajjam0770
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    I had a long post at the top of this page talking about how I think it all works. I think the Quill thing is that he's just going to wake up and go about getting the stone. The Gamora thing I'm pretty sure is going to be addressed in Guardians 3 and why they left it like that. The Loki thing may or may not be addressed in the Loki Disney Plus show.

    I totally agree with you on the state of the earth. It would be an absolute apocalyptic nightmare. Killing a random 50% instantly would really mean a total loss of what... 70 percent of the population dying? Think about all the car wrecks, all the plane crashes, runaway trains. 50% of the world leaders dying, political and military, and all the upheveal that would cause. I think that's something we just have to go with suspension of disbelief because it's a Marvel movie, and it wants to address the threat and the consequences to the world. That's the biggest flaw in jumping everyone to the present despite how much I like the idea, rather than resetting the world back to just after the Snap.
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    In my long post above, I talk about how I think it all works. I didn't mention Quill, but I assume he just wakes up and gets the stone. The Gamora thing I'm pretty sure they're going to address it in Guardians 3, or at the very least they needed to do that because they wanted her in Guardians 3 and maybe it gets addressed even further down the line. As for Loki, that might or might not be addressed in the new Loki Disney Plus show, so I'm on wait and see mode for that as well.

    As for the state of the world, I'm with you. The world would be an apocalyptic nightmare. Wiping out 50% of the world would realistically lead to what... another 20% of the world dying from the after affects? 50% of the vehicles on the road and planes in the air losing their drivers/pilots. 50% of the world political and military leaders disappearing and the chaos that would ensue? I think this is just a case where we have to accept suspension of disbelief because it's a Marvel movie. They want to address the threat and not the state of the world, and the world has to return to the status quo to make more movies they want to make. But it's the biggest flaw in going for the five year jump, which I loved, rather than reverting time to just before the Snap.
    ken hale
  • Not to mention the fact that Banner snapped people back to where they were, but it's five years later?  So husbands are coming back to find their wives remarried, parents are coming back to find their kids grown up (a la Antman's daughter, who seemed to age 20 years in those five), children are snapping back into existence to find their families have moved across the country, older siblings are coming back and now they're the younger sibling, etc.  It's absurd.  Far as I can tell, the only reason they did the 5 years in the future thing was so Tony could have a kid, and that gave his character some kind of motivation, but I think it was kind of a mistake for the logistical mess it makes, and he dies anyway.  It doesn't matter, because they just won't address these continuity problems.
    DoubleA_RonBenCorymajjam0770
  • Changing the subject a bit but Cap catching Mjolnir might be favorite moment of the entire MCU. Goddamn that had me geeking out so hard.  My previous fav was Hulk’s “I’m always angry” in the first Avengers. 
    Thought that was awesome!! I did like the Ruffahulk, too.
  • fidozfidoz Houston
    Just got home from the theater. I hope I have the emotional stamina for the Battle of Winterfell tonight. 
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    I watched it a second time. I think it's better on rewatch. The extreme changes in tone are still there, but the pacing feels better.

    (I also recorded the audio to argue with people on the internet. A *lot* of people think a lot of branched realities were created. I'd love to see a poll of people who came out of it thinking it was one timeline versus branched realities.)
  • hisdudeness915hisdudeness915 Atlanta, Ga
    @Anominal What was the audio? I’m starting to come around to the single timeline albeit requiring a LOT of secret keeping from Cap and Peggy but was just curious what the exact dialogue was. I’ve still only seen it once but have heard arguments from both sides of the debate on the internet
  • hisdudeness915hisdudeness915 Atlanta, Ga
    Also, I’ve been thinking about Thanos being able to move his entire army through a giant portal in the sky. Are we to assume that he used the space stone that Loki took back in the Avengers 1 timeline?
  • rhcooprhcoop Knoxville, Tn
    MrX said:
    On a side note, selfishly I wanted Bucky to take up the Cap America mantle simply because I don’t give a shit about Falcon. Hell, I barely give a shit about Bucky  :)
    Same. I've always thought Falcon was such a goofy addition to the series. I'd have love to seen Bucky pick up the shield.

    They can do some interesting stuff from the comics with Sam as Captain America - would be fitting for the times.


    I hope people enjoy it if that is what they are looking for, but that comic run as garbage.  

    He's a much better character as Falcon.

    Just for the record, the BuckyCap experiment got old QUICK as well.  Even Dick Grayson as Batman for a few short stints got old after a few story arcs.

    There is a reason they classics stick around for 80 plus years, they are just more interesting characters IMO.

    I'm sure they will recast and bring Cap back from the past whenever they need him or Evans will realize his directing career may not take off and he'll be ready to come back before he ages out of the character completely. 
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited April 29
    Also, I’ve been thinking about Thanos being able to move his entire army through a giant portal in the sky. Are we to assume that he used the space stone that Loki took back in the Avengers 1 timeline?
    Okay. What I'm basically saying is that they're using Primer time travel rules. A movie not on their list of time travel done wrong. What did happen will happen. 

    Cap wipes his memory and the Hydra agents think they were interacting with Loki (in the movie they also had Loki turn into Captain America in front of the agents as he was getting taken away to make fun of how noble Cap is.) It always happened and we're just seeing it now. It wasn't a change to the timeline, and there was no altering the future or creating a branched path. 

    What the movies says, "Changing the past doesn’t change the future." What alternate timeline people are doing is added text that's not spoken, "Changing the past doesn’t change your future [it creates an alternate reality but doesn’t affect where you came from.]"

    Banner then goes on to explain. "I don’t know why every one believes that, but it’s not true. Think about it. If you travel to the past, that past becomes your future. And your former present becomes the past. Which can’t now be changed by your new future."

    And then alternate reality supporters are saying there is implied but never spoken text:

    [So in reality, you’re creating a branched path that leads to a different tlmeline that so it won’t affect our current present. Oh, and our GPS devices make sure that the act of taking the Stone doesn't keep us on that alternate path and will bring us back to the correct timeline.]

    What he’s simply saying is that we can’t create paradoxes. There won't be any slowly fading out of existence like in Back to the Future, there is no "The temporal wake must be shielding us" from Star Trek First Contact. The problem is it was written as complicated as possible to go for the "Exactly," joke by Nebula. What he’s not saying is "…Which can’t now be changed by your new future [because we would be creating a branched timeline and that doesn't affect us in this timeline.]"

    All the terminology is time travel, time travel, time travel. Not creating alternate realities. This is a time heist. Thanos says that they’re trying to fix something I do in their time by doing something in ours, and not talking about how they are trying to fix their reality. The reason he believes he is inevitable is because it’s only one timeline. He sees his destiny to die, but knows he’s going to leap frog their own attempts to thwart him with time travel by one upping them in a singular timeline. He'll eventually go back and collect the stones and assemble the gauntlet and die, but it doesn't matter because he believes he's still going to win. It's inevitable. Not a possibility in some timelines but not true in others. (He's of course wrong, but it's what he believes.) Otherwise, it wouldn’t be his destiny to die in the video he saw.

    The only time alternate realities is mentioned is with the Ancient One, and Bruce then goes and basically says, no we’re not doing that. We’re sticking to time travel only and won’t be creating alternate realities. This is a time travel movie and not a multiverse movie.

    The conversation doesn’t have Bruce hear the Ancient One’s concern, hesitate and say, "Oh you’re right. But oh wait! I’ve just now come up with a way to fix that, we return the stone." Instead, Bruce from the start goes into the conversation talking pretty confident, "I don't think that's how the science works out." (The tone of his voice expresses that confidence more so than just the words spoken. He then explains to her why they won't be creating a branched path.

    And of course at the end Old Cap exists and didn’t go off into a branching timeline. Unless that’s the one exception . That it branches at all the other points, but in this one specific case it didn’t.

    With all that said, rewatching and listening to it, they leave enough wiggle room in many of the lines to believe that alternate realities were being created.

    What they don’t ever do is have the heroes address any concerns about screwing up other realities. With the concerns that Captain America had about how they shouldn’t have to give up Vision’s life to save others, he would definitely have concerns about screwing up other realities to save their own. In this very movie, they shoot down killing baby Thanos not just because it can’t be done, but because killing a baby is a horrible thing to do. That would be another instance where people would speak up and question if they should risk screwing up other realities. But they don’t, because they’re thinking of it as time travel only.


  • hisdudeness915hisdudeness915 Atlanta, Ga
    @Anominal I think I get it now. So, essentially the 2023 Avengers jump back to 2014(or whenever they each jump to), borrow the stones, save the world, then Cap takes them all back. So basically everything in the past that we SEE in the film doesn’t happen and the timeline we all know remains unchanged from 2014-2023. My hangup is AFTER that happens what does Cap do? Jump back to 1944 and then does whatever he wants(while his other self is still frozen) which is all fine and good until 2014 when those explorers find another Cap frozen in the Arctic. My head cannon says that Carter just keeps him hidden really well but that’s one hell of a convo they must’ve had. 
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited April 29
    @hisdudeness915 Actually, everything we see does happen. It's just that it always happened. The movie is just showing us stuff that we didn't know that happened off screen before. It's filling in gaps without changing anything we know.

    Captain America's timeline is:

    - Steve Rogers is born, grows up and becomes friends with Bucky.
    - Keeps trying to join the War until he's accepted into the Super Solider program
    - Becomes Captain America, meets Peggy Carter who befriends and flirts with him and a connection between them is formed
    - He thinks he sees Bucky die, eventually defeats the Red Skull, but has to down his plane and Peggy is the last person he speaks to and they make a promise to finally get a dance together when they meet again, and he gets frozen
    - He is discovered and thawed out and thinks he's basically the only thing left from his time except for an old Peggy Carter, and becomes an Avenger
    - Stops the invasion of New York
    - Immediately after he hears that Loki has escaped and then fights what he thinks is Loki but is actually future Cap and gets distracted by being told that Bucky is alive but then gets his mind wiped by the staff
    - Learns that Bucky is alive again, but he thinks this is the first time he learned of it, defeats Hydra
    - Beats Ultron
    - Peggy Carter dies, and there is an Avengers Civil War with Tony trying to prove Bucky is innocent of most things he's being accused of and was under mind control for the rest of it
    - Learns of Thanos and fails in Wakanda
    - They track him down and make a second attempt to kill Thanos at the Garden, but it's too late because the Stones are destroyed, and then five year jump to 2023
    - Learn of time travel possibility and goes back in time to New York and fights his now past self. He wins by revealing the secret of Bucky to distract past self but then immediately uses the staff to wipe his past self's memory.
    - Goes back to the 70s and secures the Pym particles, returns to lead the final fight against Thanos in 2023
    - Says good-bye to Bucky and goes back to return the Stones and Mjolnir
    - Makes his last jump to meet Peggy and tells her he's from the future and the importance of keeping his identity a secret. As Director of Shield she has the ability to change his identity and get another Shield made at some point.
    - They finally get their dance together, and get married under his new identity, which they both know can't be revealed. And they know he has to keep some secrets from her like Hydra infiltrating Shield, or else 50% of the universe is at jeopardy. He allows events to play out knowing they get resolved in the end. 
    - He walks up sits on the bench near where he time traveled from, then talks with Falcon and passes on the extra shield that Peggy had made. 
    - He stays true to keeping the secret by not telling Falcon who he got married to when Sam asks about the ring.
    - He reminisces about going back and finally getting that dance with Peggy Carter before eventually marrying her.

    For him, it's all one linear timeline, at various points in his life he was both the person that fought himself and got the staff used on him to have his mind wiped, and then later on he was the other person and is the one that used the staff to do the mind wiping.
    Underwood
  • hisdudeness915hisdudeness915 Atlanta, Ga
    @Anominal Wow, thanks for all the effort on your posts. Yea, I misspoke about “never happened” but that’s what I was thinking in my head. That last jump  is essentially how it would have to go down and that was the part that I was having the most difficulty with. Can’t wait to see it agin and go in knowing all this. 
  • @Anominal The way I understood it (which may be wrong), is that they were avoiding alternate realities by returning the stones. If they lost, then they wouldn't be able to return the stones. But if the Ancient One doesn't give up the stone, then the same fate of Thanos winning would happen anyway. I thought it was a leap of faith for her to trust that Bruce and co would return the stones at the exact "right" time. 

    The minor problem I have is the concept of replacing the stones immediately, and what does that look like from her perspective? As soon as Banner time jumps away with the Time stone, does Captain America walk on screen and give it back to her? What if he's delayed for 30 seconds? Or a day? Is there some butterfly effect that could happen in that time that makes a new alternate timeline? I saw it as similar rules to Counterpart, where there is an event that would cause a divergence, but here they are rectifying that event immediately after the divergence occurs. I thought that is what Banner was doing when he erased the  "darker" timeline that went up in the air.

    And since Gamorra is saved, why can't Natasha be saved? Why can't Vision be saved? Is the Thor of the past missing a hammer, or are there two hammers? Do the Hydra guys in the elevator ever fight Captain America? 
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited April 29
    @rkcrawf

    The easiest one to answer is the Hammer. They very clearly show him pick up the hammer when he goes to return to the Stones. I think it's safe to presume that he returns it to Asgard when he returns the Reality Stone.

    The one that is definitely left open ended is Gamora. I'm just assuming they wanted to use her in Guardians 3 and I dont even know if they'll resolve her being out of time by the end of that movie. But they did leave us with Peter Quill searching for her right before he changes the screen as Thor walks on to the ship. The Gamora thing is something that isn't definitely answered but may be in the future.

    In terms of a singular timeline, Natasha can't be stopped from dying, because she has to die to get the Stone to beat Thanos. In terms of multiple realities supporters (and where the wiggle room comes in) she can't be brought back because that's a rule specific to Soul Stone. Or it can be both. With a singluar timeline all that could be done is to remove Black Widow from an earlier point in her life and bring her to the present, but she eventually had to be put back to where she came from with those memories erased. (With that said, I was actually expecting when Captain America disappeared, that Black Widow would reappear because returning the Stone might swap her back out, but that wasn't the case.)

    Vision has a similar problem in that he has to die for the Snap to happen, so the time travel happens, so they win in the end. If they stop Vision from dying, they're preventing the reasons why they went back in time in the first place. However there isn't a Soul Stone clause. According to the rules they showed up with the Time Stone, they could go to the spot where Vision died and do an isolated turning back of Time. However, while there's no Soul Stone clause there are wizard rules about frivolous uses for the Time Stone (or any use of it at all according to what's his name), it isn't something Dr. Strange would do. It's more a rule about messing with time than actual impossibility.

    Yes, it was a leap of faith on the Ancient One's part. First Bruce convinced her of the logic, but hearing that Dr. Strange later voluntarily gives it up despite his charge to protect it is what tips her decision. Faith in Dr. Strange who she saw would be her successor, and one that would surpass her, and not faith in Bruce Banner.

    You're right about the immediately. It can't literally mean that, otherwise as soon as she'd let go we would have seen a Captain America there ready to put it back in her hands. Like an Indiana Jones bag of dirt/cursed idol swap on the pressure plate. We would have seen all three together at the same time. The immediately has to be interpreted with some leeway for it to actually work out.
    rkcrawf
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