Avengers Endgame - Full Spoiler discussion

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  • @hisdudeness915 Great read. Makes sense for the most part. There are alternate timelines if there is a deviation. Cap created one, but since the only significant change was him marrying Peggy, no harm no foul. 

    Good explanation on Spidey. 
  • Teresa from ConcordTeresa from Concord Concord, California
    The only time I have FOMO is when someone posts a reddit article. Do not reddit
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    If there is only one timeline then how does the Cap vs Cap battle happen with 2 shields? 
    ken hale
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited May 2019
    From that interview I guess I'm definitely wrong and it's not a time loop. But I hate it.

    He creates a different reality and gets married... and that reality also happens to get their one in fourteen million chance at beating Thanos? There are a millions way to write how he prevents it from happening there too I suppose. Tell the Ancient One what's to come and totally change the future of everything. Tell Shield and Fury and everyone else and fight side by side with double Cap, but it's so messy now.

    Our heroes also had a complete disregard for every other reality they created. They were extremely selfish. Let's just take Mjolnir from other Thor. He doesn't need it. Peter Quill who? Let's just totally screw him over and possibly prevent him from ever meeting the people who he considers family which means they won't be together to stop Ronan. Sucks to be them. Let loose the criminal who brought an alien invasion to Earth and let him go with no consequences? Whatevs.

    Hey guess what reality 2 cap, I got to marry Peggy Carter. I'll tell you the secrets how you can do it too. And don't worry, Bucky is alive, I'll get everything sorted out so he doesn't get accused of killing the king of Wakanda. And here's some cliff notes on if you want to go back in time to marry your own Peggy Carter in Reality 3. But first we have to get Iron Man to create a time machine. Oh! But since I changed everything let's make sure Ant-Man exists.

    It also doesn't explain why Thanos saw his death and said, "Oh yes. Destiny fulfilled." And now his plan is less genius than I thought.

    It's all so messy. But that's comics I guess.
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    Hatorian said:
    If there is only one timeline then how does the Cap vs Cap battle happen with 2 shields? 
    Looks like I'm definitively wrong, but if it was a time loop, there is a future and past Shield just like there's a future and past Cap.
  • Anominal said:
    It's all so messy. But that's comics I guess.
    Oh, man, just wait until they introduce young-Tony-Stark-clone Iron Man in the movies. 
    rkcrawfrhcoop
  • edited May 2019
    I kind of wish that the Russos didn't explain the Cap ending and instead left it up to the viewer to decide while also presenting ways both theories could work.

    For me, I like the thought that Steve was still in the main timeline and he had always been Peggy's husband a la time also being a flat circle. I know some have said how could he just sit and let the bad things happen, but the difference is its in a past where he knows they come out on top in the future, so it also seems consistent with Steve that the right thing is to not tamper with anything major as it will surely lead to the greater doom of Thanos being victorious. 

    I dunno. I just know I loved the final scene.
    Anominalrhcoop
  • Hatorian said:
    If there is only one timeline then how does the Cap vs Cap battle happen with 2 shields? 
    It happens, but then it gets erased when Hammer Cap puts the stones back. 

  • I kind of wish that the Russos didn't explain the Cap ending and instead left it up to the viewer to decide while also presenting ways both theories could work.

    For me, I like the thought that Steve was still in the main timeline and he had always been Peggy's husband a la time also being a flat circle. I know some have said how could he just sit and let the bad things happen, but the difference is its in a past where he knows they come out on top in the future, so it also seems consistent with Steve that the right thing is to not tamper with anything major as it will surely lead to the greater doom of Thanos being victorious. 

    I dunno. I just know I loved the final scene.
    That would require him to be okay with letting Widow (and others) die and doing nothing. Not everyone came out on top. 

    This has been a week of a lot of nitpicking for Endgame and Thrones. I think its okay for anyone to be into the details and what-ifs, but at some point it starts to ruin my enjoyment of products that are arguably the best thing out there. I can't think of a time-travel movie that stands up to scrutiny. It'd be one thing if I was confused and didn't understand what the creators were trying to convey. But since I do understand, and I enjoyed the experience, I gotta leave it alone. 
  • Anominal said:
    From that interview I guess I'm definitely wrong and it's not a time loop. But I hate it.

    He creates a different reality and gets married... and that reality also happens to get their one in fourteen million chance at beating Thanos? There are a millions way to write how he prevents it from happening there too I suppose. Tell the Ancient One what's to come and totally change the future of everything. Tell Shield and Fury and everyone else and fight side by side with double Cap, but it's so messy now.

    Our heroes also had a complete disregard for every other reality they created. They were extremely selfish. Let's just take Mjolnir from other Thor. He doesn't need it. Peter Quill who? Let's just totally screw him over and possibly prevent him from ever meeting the people who he considers family which means they won't be together to stop Ronan. Sucks to be them. Let loose the criminal who brought an alien invasion to Earth and let him go with no consequences? Whatevs.

    Hey guess what reality 2 cap, I got to marry Peggy Carter. I'll tell you the secrets how you can do it too. And don't worry, Bucky is alive, I'll get everything sorted out so he doesn't get accused of killing the king of Wakanda. And here's some cliff notes on if you want to go back in time to marry your own Peggy Carter in Reality 3. But first we have to get Iron Man to create a time machine. Oh! But since I changed everything let's make sure Ant-Man exists.

    It also doesn't explain why Thanos saw his death and said, "Oh yes. Destiny fulfilled." And now his plan is less genius than I thought.

    It's all so messy. But that's comics I guess.
    I'll start off with I 100% loved End Game.  I'm not a nitpicker when it comes to these time travel issues and I can just hand wave it away and be completely fine with it.  @Anominal you did an amazing job explaining everything and honestly I like what you've laid out better than what the article states.  One thing I'd like you to clarify using your logic with what happened.  When Iron man snapped his fingers and all of the baddies from the 2014 or whatever timeline turned to dust, I assume they just transported back to their original timeline with no memories of what had just happened and they are completely oblivious to the fact they time traveled to the future.  Does that track or is there a better answer to that part of it?  Also if that's the case, 2014 Gamora got dusted as well right?
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited May 2019
    I'll start off with I 100% loved End Game.  I'm not a nitpicker when it comes to these time travel issues and I can just hand wave it away and be completely fine with it.  @Anominal you did an amazing job explaining everything and honestly I like what you've laid out better than what the article states.  One thing I'd like you to clarify using your logic with what happened.  When Iron man snapped his fingers and all of the baddies from the 2014 or whatever timeline turned to dust, I assume they just transported back to their original timeline with no memories of what had just happened and they are completely oblivious to the fact they time traveled to the future.  Does that track or is there a better answer to that part of it?  Also if that's the case, 2014 Gamora got dusted as well right?
    Yeah. That's I was thinking.

    Without knowing if the stones can just bring anyone back to life or just those Snapped, I was thinking past/young Nebula is only incapacitated and not killed. She's full of robot parts, and we've seen in her in all kinds of bad shape after all. And then she gets sent back. 

    Tony snaps everyone back to the past with no memories, but there would be enough lingering evidence that Thanos knew something happened. 

    Gamora is left as an unresolved thread because of how Tony thought of his wish, and she was fighting for the good guys, and would be resolved in Guardians 3. That they would realize that she has to go back to where she came from. 

    That's on the heroes end. On the villains end... 

    What I was thinking was that when Thanos saw the video of himself saying he was inevitable, he took that to mean he was going to succeed and realized he had to travel to a point in time past the moment of his beheading. It's not just arrogance. He truly believes he won and nothing they can do can stop him. He has won before, he will win again. He interprets it wrongly, and the Avengers do win, but that's what he believes.

    He sees that his future self kills half the universe, then his current/past self will go past that moment in time and kill the rest to restart everything as stated, and then return to the past keep the loop intact and march towards that beheading so it would be "destiny fulfilled."

    He saw it and instantly knew how to use time travel so the end of his life and the end of where he affected the universe don't have to sync up.

    Edit: If the stones can bring just anyone back to life, Hulk better have wished to bring back all the secondary deaths caused by the Snap. All the car crashes and fires and all that.

    If the Stones can't bring normal dead back to life, it's also perfectly convenient that none of the Children of Thanos were killed during the battle. The one big guy was stepped on by giant Ant-Man but that's it. That's not necessarily fatal. So conveniently they can be returned to the past to complete their loops to die in Infinity War.

    Edit 2: Instead, Thanos sees his beheading and says "destiny fulfilled" for no particular reason, but learns half measures won't work, and goes to the future... Because I'm not sure. To want to win of course, but certainly not expecting to be beheaded ever. 

    If he realized the 50% wasn't going to work, he could have just waited for them to return the stones and the first time through in this universe he could just kill everyone. But maybe he just didn't want to gamble that they'd return the stones.

    Edit 3: My original thought was messier. The Tony sending them back is on screen and clean. But I was thinking at some point after the movie ends Dr. Strange gathers the stones and Snaps Thanos back just like the heroes could take five years to Snap everyone back to life. He had the knowledge, power, ability, and responsibility to ensure time is secure.

    It could also have led to a big Avengers villain that also deals with time travel in a later Avengers movie.

    Edit 4: Thor's mom also very pointedly keeps on interrupting him from telling her when she's going to die becasue she understands time travel and is keeping him from messing up anything. And also, she's quite happy when he takes the hammer. She should be angry that he's taking her reality's hammer if it was alternate realities. Or at least tell him to remember to return it.

    I was also expecting future Nebula to be the reason why Thanos knows where all (most) of the stones are. They get snapped back and have some of the files. (This is not necessary for any of it to make sense. Just what I thought while watching the movie.)

    Future Nebula was also very careful to not outright tell Past Gamora how she dies, and rather question if she realizes what Thanos does to her in the future. But that became less important as it's revealed that she likely didn't go back. But they worded the scene to be very vague to be able to use it either way.
    awookiee
  • Anominal said:
    From that interview I guess I'm definitely wrong and it's not a time loop. But I hate it.

    He creates a different reality and gets married... and that reality also happens to get their one in fourteen million chance at beating Thanos? There are a millions way to write how he prevents it from happening there too I suppose. Tell the Ancient One what's to come and totally change the future of everything. Tell Shield and Fury and everyone else and fight side by side with double Cap, but it's so messy now.

    Our heroes also had a complete disregard for every other reality they created. They were extremely selfish. Let's just take Mjolnir from other Thor. He doesn't need it. Peter Quill who? Let's just totally screw him over and possibly prevent him from ever meeting the people who he considers family which means they won't be together to stop Ronan. Sucks to be them. Let loose the criminal who brought an alien invasion to Earth and let him go with no consequences? Whatevs.

    Hey guess what reality 2 cap, I got to marry Peggy Carter. I'll tell you the secrets how you can do it too. And don't worry, Bucky is alive, I'll get everything sorted out so he doesn't get accused of killing the king of Wakanda. And here's some cliff notes on if you want to go back in time to marry your own Peggy Carter in Reality 3. But first we have to get Iron Man to create a time machine. Oh! But since I changed everything let's make sure Ant-Man exists.

    It also doesn't explain why Thanos saw his death and said, "Oh yes. Destiny fulfilled." And now his plan is less genius than I thought.

    It's all so messy. But that's comics I guess.
    I'll start off with I 100% loved End Game.  I'm not a nitpicker when it comes to these time travel issues and I can just hand wave it away and be completely fine with it.  @Anominal you did an amazing job explaining everything and honestly I like what you've laid out better than what the article states.  One thing I'd like you to clarify using your logic with what happened.  When Iron man snapped his fingers and all of the baddies from the 2014 or whatever timeline turned to dust, I assume they just transported back to their original timeline with no memories of what had just happened and they are completely oblivious to the fact they time traveled to the future.  Does that track or is there a better answer to that part of it?  Also if that's the case, 2014 Gamora got dusted as well right?
    I got the impression they were wiped out similar to the prior snap.  
  • Teresa from ConcordTeresa from Concord Concord, California
    I believe thanos and gang are wiped out. So they don’t exist in the past anymore because they were snapped In the future. No Thanos. No history repeating itself. 

    If Tony did magically think “Gamora don’t die” then she is in the past. But still dead as a door nail now. 
  • I believe thanos and gang are wiped out. So they don’t exist in the past anymore because they were snapped In the future. No Thanos. No history repeating itself. 

    If Tony did magically think “Gamora don’t die” then she is in the past. But still dead as a door nail now. 
    Didn’t we see Quill try to kiss her or something and get knocked out?
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited May 2019
    rkcrawf said:
    I got the impression they were wiped out similar to the prior snap.  
    Yeah. The timeloop is officially debunked, and it's officially alternate realities. Thanos dusting to death same as the Snapped 50% is the simplest answer.

    Conspiracy Theory: Endgame finished principle photography in April of last year. The FOX/Disney deal didn't fully close until March 22nd of this year. The reason why it isn't obviously 100%, no questions asked, crystal clear on how the time travel worked is because of the FOX/Disney deal. It was written as a time loop story and then edited after the fact to allow for alternate realities as a way to get the Fantastic Four and X-men into the MCU.

    But none of that matters, because what is, is. It's alternate realities as the official word from the Russo Brothers themselves. So the timeloop angle that I had originally believed is officially a What If.
    awookiee
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    When Cap decided to live for himself, could he still lift Mjolnir?
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    When Cap decided to live for himself, could he still lift Mjolnir?

    Thor still can, so yes. ;)
    Murderbearrkcrawf
  • JamesJames southern California
    Anominal said:
    Let's just take Mjolnir from other Thor. He doesn't need it. Peter Quill who? Let's just totally screw him over and possibly prevent him from ever meeting the people who he considers family which means they won't be together to stop Ronan. 
    Cap took Mjolnir with him when he returned the stones, so past Thor never missed it. Knocking out Quill in the past is a problem because in GotG he retrieved the orb moments before Ronin's stooges showed up, so it seems like he'll be late this time.
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    James said:
    Anominal said:
    Let's just take Mjolnir from other Thor. He doesn't need it. Peter Quill who? Let's just totally screw him over and possibly prevent him from ever meeting the people who he considers family which means they won't be together to stop Ronan. 
    Cap took Mjolnir with him when he returned the stones, so past Thor never missed it. Knocking out Quill in the past is a problem because in GotG he retrieved the orb moments before Ronin's stooges showed up, so it seems like he'll be late this time.
    Oh, you might be totally right about the Quill one. It's been a while since I've seen that and forgot he gets robbed. Makes total sense since the rest of the movie is about chasing it down.

    But for the Thor one... with the alternate realities as the official canon, no one ever talks about making sure things are exactly they way they left it, not until *after* they already go to the past. After Hulk talks to the Ancient One and makes the promise to return the Stones. That means Thor went to the past and had no idea they were going to return Mjolnir, Thor's mom sees him and talks about how she knows he's from the future but for some reason doesn't say she knows he's from a future branched reality. When he takes the Mjolnir, he's taking the hammer from her current Thor and has no idea if he'll bring it back or not. She's not angry that her Thor will be hammerless, and doesn't even say, "Don't forget to bring it back.

    It's not until during the battle that Hulk mentions to anyone that they need to return the Stones to where they came from. And it isn't until after the the battle that they decide to return the hammer (and they never decide to put Loki back in Thor's custody and just let him roam free.)

    There are so many instances where they could have inserted a single line to make it crystal clear that it was alternate realities and/or mention anything about returning things from where they got taken from, but the movie never once mentions that stuff except after the fact if at all.

    I still love the movie. I also love comics and know how weird they can get. I also love plenty of time travel movies that don't make sense like how they show consequences in Looper. So this is all just for fun and I'm ready to roll with it however they decide to explain it or not.

    But none of this is clearly explained. As it is, if a kid takes candy from the gas station and the kid's brother makes him take it back, that's basically what's happened with Thor and his hammer. It was an after the fact correction, and not an in the moment conscious decision.
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    It's all a bit much to explain. Like, did he somehow get to Asgard and then re-inject Jane with the Ether? But I think it's okay they didn't bother showing every little minute detail. It's Captain America. I'm sure he got the job done.
    rkcrawf
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    And I guess Hella could have had Peter Dinklage just make another Hammer, right? Thanos probably hadn't gotten to the forge yet.
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    ken hale said:
    Not to mention the fact that Banner snapped people back to where they were, but it's five years later?  So husbands are coming back to find their wives remarried, parents are coming back to find their kids grown up (a la Antman's daughter, who seemed to age 20 years in those five), children are snapping back into existence to find their families have moved across the country, older siblings are coming back and now they're the younger sibling, etc.  It's absurd.  Far as I can tell, the only reason they did the 5 years in the future thing was so Tony could have a kid, and that gave his character some kind of motivation, but I think it was kind of a mistake for the logistical mess it makes, and he dies anyway.  It doesn't matter, because they just won't address these continuity problems.
    This is the part of the movie I can't stop thinking about now. Farming, utilities, city planning have all been changed to account for half the people. Now the world has twice the people with diminished capacity to take care of them. Probably widespread depression even with getting their people back - some depression caused by those people coming back when relatives have moved on and possibly been happier. Or they just don't trust it. Curious what's gone on with Aunt May and how they handle that. Was she without Peter for 5 years, or did she go too? This isn't the Leftovers so I'm sure they don't get into that. 

    Never mind that this is presumably happening universe-wide, so this could be even worse on other planets with different circumstances they have no knowledge of. I can't get around the idea that it's a pretty immoral thing to do.  :)

  • chrisk said:
    ken hale said:
    Not to mention the fact that Banner snapped people back to where they were, but it's five years later?  So husbands are coming back to find their wives remarried, parents are coming back to find their kids grown up (a la Antman's daughter, who seemed to age 20 years in those five), children are snapping back into existence to find their families have moved across the country, older siblings are coming back and now they're the younger sibling, etc.  It's absurd.  Far as I can tell, the only reason they did the 5 years in the future thing was so Tony could have a kid, and that gave his character some kind of motivation, but I think it was kind of a mistake for the logistical mess it makes, and he dies anyway.  It doesn't matter, because they just won't address these continuity problems.
    This is the part of the movie I can't stop thinking about now. Farming, utilities, city planning have all been changed to account for half the people. Now the world has twice the people with diminished capacity to take care of them. Probably widespread depression even with getting their people back - some depression caused by those people coming back when relatives have moved on and possibly been happier. Or they just don't trust it. Curious what's gone on with Aunt May and how they handle that. Was she without Peter for 5 years, or did she go too? This isn't the Leftovers so I'm sure they don't get into that. 

    Never mind that this is presumably happening universe-wide, so this could be even worse on other planets with different circumstances they have no knowledge of. I can't get around the idea that it's a pretty immoral thing to do.  :)

    Tony Stark...job creator. There is now a massive workforce that can be put to use to rebuild. 100% employment. The mother of all stimulus packages. UN levels of cooperation to feed the world. 

    Seriously, I mean they showed the fallout of not being able to maintain everything. I wonder how the MCU shows that Netflix cancelled would have addressed this stuff. They might have sweat the details a bit more. You've got guys like Banner who can use gamma radiation to help increase food output safely. Wakanda still has Star Trek levels of resources. They will figure that stuff out. 
  • Just saw this finally! Was spoiled on who died but that’s it. I really liked this a lot. Yeah there are some things to pick apart but no real complaints here.  And am happy to have a long bald-move discussion to read through afterwards. 
     
    Kind of glad I waited until now since I will be watching another big finale tomorrow that may not be so great. But we will see. 
  • Can someone please tell me why it makes plot-sense for both Captain Marvel and Thor to let Iron Man wear the gauntlet?? Captain Marvel had possession and clearly has enough juice. Even though Thor isn’t at fighting weight, we saw him take the energy of a star in the last movie. 

    The only answer i can I can come up with is, “who has a better story than Tony Stark?”
  • hisdudeness915hisdudeness915 Atlanta, Ga
    edited June 2019
    @rkcrawf. IIRC, didn’t Captain Marvel basically get knocked out of the fight right before Ironman got the stones? Also, Ironman had his own gauntlet built into his suit as a failsafe. Thanos had the gauntlet they were all playing keep away with but Tony took the stones. All this lines up with Tony’s character, as it’s not the first time he had his own plan that he kept all to himself. 
  • @rkcrawf. IIRC, didn’t Captain Marvel basically get knocked out of the fight right before Ironman got the stones? Also, Ironman had his own gauntlet built into his suit as a failsafe. Thanos had the gauntlet they were all playing keep away with but Tony took the stones. All this lines up with Tony’s character, as it’s not the first time he had his own plan that he kept all to himself. 
    As I recall, Marvel has it for a good two minutes playing keep away. Since Hulk already wielded the thing, it’s not crazy for someone else to try it. I need to see it again, but I don’t get what the plan was. To destroy the thing? To beat Thanos before he gets to it? There’s no real problem with those options I guess, but I remember thinking at the time that Thor or Marvel needed to wear the thing. If anything, Stark’s plan should have been for one of them to wear it bc it likely wouldn’t kill them. 
  • rkcrawf said:
    @rkcrawf. IIRC, didn’t Captain Marvel basically get knocked out of the fight right before Ironman got the stones? Also, Ironman had his own gauntlet built into his suit as a failsafe. Thanos had the gauntlet they were all playing keep away with but Tony took the stones. All this lines up with Tony’s character, as it’s not the first time he had his own plan that he kept all to himself. 
    As I recall, Marvel has it for a good two minutes playing keep away. Since Hulk already wielded the thing, it’s not crazy for someone else to try it. I need to see it again, but I don’t get what the plan was. To destroy the thing? To beat Thanos before he gets to it? There’s no real problem with those options I guess, but I remember thinking at the time that Thor or Marvel needed to wear the thing. If anything, Stark’s plan should have been for one of them to wear it bc it likely wouldn’t kill them. 
    When Captain Marvel had it she was trying to get the gauntlet to Scott at the van to go through the Quantum realm and bring them back from where they came from.  Yes it does make sense for them to use the gauntlet again to kill Thanos and all his minions but my understanding is that Thor and Captain Marvel wouldn't be able to "handle" the snap either which is why Hulk did it the first time.  Tony only did it as a last resort because Thanos was going to win again and this was clearly the 1 in however many million versions that Dr. Strange saw.  
    hisdudeness915rkcrawfrhcoop
  • awookiee said:

    When Captain Marvel had it she was trying to get the gauntlet to Scott at the van to go through the Quantum realm and bring them back from where they came from.  Yes it does make sense for them to use the gauntlet again to kill Thanos and all his minions but my understanding is that Thor and Captain Marvel wouldn't be able to "handle" the snap either which is why Hulk did it the first time.  Tony only did it as a last resort because Thanos was going to win again and this was clearly the 1 in however many million versions that Dr. Strange saw.  
    Thanks. I can accept that explanation. I guess I didn't buy the initial logic of Hulk and the gamma radiation, since (again) we had just seen Thor handle the energy from a star and Captain Marvel was handling similar type (but not scale) energy in her feature movie. 
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