@All the Chickens I'm OK with it being a red herring, but who knows what story D&D are telling at this point.
It would be ironic though. Jon is supposed to bring light into the darkness, where in actuality, I'm pretty sure he shit his pants hiding from Viserion at the end -- bringing more darkness to the darkness.
I don't know if this has been mentioned and I don't feel like scanning thru 12 other pages right now, but has anyone checked out Leslie Jones' Twitter feed from last night? She live watched and posted tons of little live reaction vids - hilarious! (Except she calls him 'Theron', but whatev.) https://twitter.com/Lesdoggg/status/1122690357282652160
I have no military experience, nor do I even watch military movies, or read about it or anything, so correct me if this is wrong. But one thing I thought the episode was going for was keeping the point of view centered at Winterfell and how it would feel if you are there waiting for the enemy to show up at your gates, and then the aftermath when the enemy does show up. Other than Jon and Dany's pov on top of wherever they were with the dragons, the action took place all around the castle without moving far from its walls. It made sense to me when the battle lines were drawn and the Dothraki took off with their flaming swords and came back hastily retreating and we didn't get to see what happened because that's the point of view of most of the characters at that point.
I'm not asking for military mistakes. I was referring to the feeling of being in your location (defending Winterfell) while this battle is raging in all different places, and your perspective just being tied to your particular location (the left flank, the wall, inside the library etc).
Lazy writing? Bran gave Arya that dagger two seasons ago, the red woman told Arya she would kill ‘blue eyes’ in season two? Very hard to write something well that isn’t actually written by the author yet
The DD's mention that they've known Arya kills the NK for years now. Apparently it was one of GRRM's bulletpoints. This is brought up in the "After the Episode" interviews.
They say they decided 3 years ago. way after the season 2 prophecy. Its easy to say that Mel's prophesy about killing brown, blue, and green eyes in Season 2 was a plot pay off, but don't forget Mels character had not got one single prophesy right till this battle. People forget she burnt a child alive because of a clear message from the Lord of light and she was proven to be way off the mark. So we are now lead to believe somehow she comes back at the right moment, gets every prediction spot on and even knows to be in that exact room when Arya and the hound end up after a panic zombie survival run through the halls of Winterfell. She then gives Arya a pep talk and says that everything and everybody (even if they don't believe in it) was placed on this earth to get Arya to this point. Its a disservice to the other characters to suggest that everybody and every action they have taken thus far is due to the Lord of light influence or plans.
i think GRRM's bullet-points are used as a crutch by the writers. I wouldn't be surprised if GRRM has the last laugh and has given them some slightly misdirected points in order to make sure that when he gets around to writing the last books he has some breathing space and isn't cornered by the shows outcome. After all, its his story to finish.
I’m not going to insult anyone that compares this show to latter seasons of TWD bc clearly we’re not watching the same show.
Let's ignore the TWD part and just say and and every movie that establishes a space, has a character suddenly appear, and when you ask where the character came from the answer really is just "off screen" as the answer then they're using a bad technique. (And there are plenty of shows and movies that use this technique.) And this time Game of Thrones decided to use that bad technique. If they had shown her come down from the tree, shown her full on ninja running over the wights, tossing a wight mask of one of the newly deceased, established a place to squeeze through, anything but fly at a weird parabolic angle with no where to have launched from because it was from a wirework platform instead, any of those options would have been better.
They conveyed that she rushed passed the other WW. She could have launched off of a pile of bodies that they had shown strewn through out the woods. Doesn’t seem like the most unbelievable part of the episode
My contention is that showing Arya’s approach ruins the surprise for the viewer. The D’s explicitly say in the post-show that they did a feint. They showed all these other characters in mortal danger hoping you’d forget where she was when you last saw her. I had forgotten where she was. So, i think if you accept that explanation, having a viewer-visible approach would undo all that. That’s why I say it’s not TWD...they did an excellent job of establishing the battle plan and logistics consistently.
You could argur that Dany should have held the Dothraki back during loot train, too. You play chess...don’t expose your queen. I didn’t like the plan (and neither did Dany), but that was there was a plan. I also don’t think you can expect Dothraki to run a flanking maneuver like the Lannister army. They clearly needed the Unsullied to protect the retreat.
@CeciliaM Mel predicted the death of Renly, Joffrey, Balon, and Robb. She predicted Jon’s death. She interpreted some visions incorrectly, but she’s not some charlatan.
So the magic ninja who has been training as an Assassin killing the night king isn’t a good pay off? Despite her being given the dagger to do it last season? Or Mel’s prophecy that was given to her in season 2? Or her being trained for it since season one? All the main players played their part, without them all doing what they did, the living would have lost. Honestly how much of this blowback is because it subverted your expectations?
No. Stop. Listen, I'm not trying to piss in anyone's cheerios; if you think that scene was cool then whatever. But don't try to sell me on the bullshit. As if Arya wasn't op enough, you now have to somehow justify her newfound powers of invisibility and flight. And don't tell me she's a ninja. We clearly saw an overhead shot of a crowd of magic zombie monsters making a full circle around that fucker. There was definitely a million ways they could have done that scene well, but what we got was just some poorly-written fan service thrown on top of a hack "everything goes as shitty as possible until the last possible second" plot-contrivance-episode. It was emotional manipulation, and it was poorly done. Glad some folks liked it!
You hit it right on the head. I rewatched the episode last night and this scene was Grade A bullshit. She literally came from the clouds and jumped on the Night King out of nowhere. People trying to justify it by saying her training over the past 4 seasons earned this moment. I just don’t agree with that. For her to pull off that move would require training from Morpheus and not Jaqen. Oh and she bailed halfway through her training with Jaqen. Didn’t even come close to completing it. It takes a huge leap of faith to pull off a scene like that and I’m not buying it. To have someone literally jump out of the clouds is just crazy to me and bad storytelling. And to be fair to Arya, I’d probably have an issue with any character doing this.
I respectfully disagree. I know about shot composition, framing, and editing; I also know how a director can manipulate the fuck out of these to create some straight-bullshit false tension. This were the latter, and Sapochnik is fully aware (and proud?) of it. Call it personal preference, but I like a shocking twist to be well-established, not some bullshit editing trick.
ETA: Also, nobody forgot about Arya at any point in the last 8 seasons, Miguel. Shut up.
To be fair, all tension in a TV show or movie is false tension. None of it's real.
We know that they are editing and filming in a way that makes the viewer more tense and afraid that something bad is about to happen, all while coming to an outcome that they always needed to happen and wrote down in a script a year beforehand.
Listening to Miguel Sapochnik in the behind the scenes of that
episode describing that big scene makes you appreciate how well they
filmed that. He describes it as:
"You're inter-cutting
with all of our other characters who are so fucked. Everybody's fucked.
That's literally the phrase we kept using, lets do the "its fucked" shot. There is no escape,
everyone is going to die right now. We want you to feel same feeling of
oh my god, what's the recovery? How do we come back from this? And we
have all forgotten about that little innocent girl from all of those
years ago who's turned into a trained killer and who's coming out of nowhere."
Perhaps you can just shoot your own ending. Just because the camera didn’t show you something doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. If you don’t like it and are done with the show, fantastic - less negative reviews to read for episodes 4-6.
"You're inter-cutting with all of our other characters who are so fucked. Everybody's fucked. That's literally the phrase we kept using, lets do the "its fucked" shot. There is no escape, everyone is going to die right now. We want you to feel same feeling of oh my god, what's the recovery? How do we come back from this? And we have all forgotten about that little innocent girl from all of those years ago who's turned into a trained killer and who's coming out of nowhere.”
I disagree with this. I’d say 80% of the audience knew something was about to go down and the Night King was not just going to slay Bran without something unexpected to happen.
How are people watching that scene and thinking she jumped from the trees? She clearly rushed past the WW, the one feels the breeze and looks back and downish and she obviously just ran straight at him and jumped. If you don't believe the ninja we saw earlier this very same episode can move quieter than the sound of a drop of blood hitting the floor could be able to sneak past a couple of WW. Fine. But just a plain reading of the angle she jumped at him is not crazy at all. She's not coming in from above. If you were running at him and jumped, it would look just like that.
I don't get it why we have a scene with Arya earlier where she says she wants to see this new face of death for her collection and not follow up on it. It would have been great if a wight just walks up to the night king and all the white walkers exchange glances like "uuhm, who is controlling that one?" and than that wight pulls out a dagger and stabs the night king in the back while Theon is charging. Than Theon could literally land in Aryas arms or tragically kill her with his spear. Bittersweet there you go.
Man, the show was broken for me a long time ago. It's been morphed into serving up big moments for several seasons now, as if that's why we like the show. A complete misunderstanding of what makes something like the Red Wedding satisfying. Or dragons satisfying. The show has been disregarding the groundwork of big moments in favor of just having big moments constantly. It's obvious that the show just broke for a few more people Sunday night. That's fine, welcome to the club. I think some people are subconsciously sexist with the Arya complaint, but I don't think everyone is; I can understand why you might not like it from a holistic standpoint. So have a seat in the We Watch GoT Although It's Bullshit club.
A shame really as seems just simply a couple of them going for Aryia or maybe a cheeky neck slit / achilles cut on the way & it's generally a well received scene.
Hope to see her perspective or Brans from another angle next episode.
I’m not going to insult anyone that compares this show to latter seasons of TWD bc clearly we’re not watching the same show.
Let's ignore the TWD part and just say and and every movie that establishes a space, has a character suddenly appear, and when you ask where the character came from the answer really is just "off screen" as the answer then they're using a bad technique. (And there are plenty of shows and movies that use this technique.) And this time Game of Thrones decided to use that bad technique. If they had shown her come down from the tree, shown her full on ninja running over the wights, tossing a wight mask of one of the newly deceased, established a place to squeeze through, anything but fly at a weird parabolic angle with no where to have launched from because it was from a wirework platform instead, any of those options would have been better.
They conveyed that she rushed passed the other WW. She could have launched off of a pile of bodies that they had shown strewn through out the woods. Doesn’t seem like the most unbelievable part of the episode
My contention is that showing Arya’s approach ruins the surprise for the viewer. The D’s explicitly say in the post-show that they did a feint. They showed all these other characters in mortal danger hoping you’d forget where she was when you last saw her. I had forgotten where she was. So, i think if you accept that explanation, having a viewer-visible approach would undo all that. That’s why I say it’s not TWD...they did an excellent job of establishing the battle plan and logistics consistently.
You could argur that Dany should have held the Dothraki back during loot train, too. You play chess...don’t expose your queen. I didn’t like the plan (and neither did Dany), but that was there was a plan. I also don’t think you can expect Dothraki to run a flanking maneuver like the Lannister army. They clearly needed the Unsullied to protect the retreat.
How are people watching that scene and thinking she jumped from the trees? She clearly rushed past the WW, the one feels the breeze and looks back and downish and she obviously just ran straight at him and jumped. If you don't believe the ninja we saw earlier this very same episode can move quieter than the sound of a drop of blood hitting the floor could be able to sneak past a couple of WW. Fine. But just a plain reading of the angle she jumped at him is not crazy at all. She's not coming in from above. If you were running at him and jumped, it would look just like that.
I think you’re right that she could get that height simply from a running start. My issue is that she would be running at full speed and sneaking pass all the walkers without being seen or heard. That’s the big holdup for me.
Man, the show was broken for me a long time ago. It's been morphed into serving up big moments for several seasons now, as if that's why we like the show. A complete misunderstanding of what makes something like the Red Wedding satisfying. Or dragons satisfying. The show has been disregarding the groundwork of big moments in favor of just having big moments constantly. It's obvious that the show just broke for a few more people Sunday night. That's fine, welcome to the club. I think some people are subconsciously sexist with the Arya complaint, but I don't think everyone is; I can understand why you might not like it from a holistic standpoint. So have a seat in the We Watch GoT Although It's Bullshit club.
This reminds me of a assessment of why Batman Vs Superman was dump (just playing out "moments" instead of a compelling story)
Theory - DOES ANYONE THINK ARYA WILL USE THE NIGHT KING'S FACE DURING FUTURE BATTLES AT KING'S LANDING?
What face?
She's just going to slather snow all over her face, I presume.
This is why I never understood the whole "Arya becomes a white walker to kill the Night King" theory. You can't cut their faces off. They explode into a million shards of ice when you pierce their skin with anything that could kill them.
One last thing with the Arya scene, not only did I think it was well done and made sense, I think every bit of it was tactically thought out by her. Because in that second when she is lunging at him, dagger raised and screaming at him, I thought, what are you doing?? Why are you yelling? But I think it was a calculated risk on her part to get him to reach his arm up to grab her and thus stretching his armor and exposing his sweet sweet chest meat.
One last thing with the Arya scene, not only did I think it was well done and made sense, I think every bit of it was tactically thought out by her. Because in that second when she is lunging at him, dagger raised and screaming at him, I thought, what are you doing?? Why are you yelling? But I think it was a calculated risk on her part to get him to reach his arm up to grab her and thus stretching his armor and exposing his sweet sweet chest meat.
That’s a lot of luck and circumstance. The Night King could have done a lot of different things there. He could have:
- side stepped her - grabbed her by the throat and crushed it before she had the option of dropping her dagger to the other hand - tossed her to the ground instead of holding her by the throat
My point really is there’s no way Arya could know how the Night King was going to act when she came from the clouds. She was fortunate to say the least.
One last thing with the Arya scene, not only did I think it was well done and made sense, I think every bit of it was tactically thought out by her. Because in that second when she is lunging at him, dagger raised and screaming at him, I thought, what are you doing?? Why are you yelling? But I think it was a calculated risk on her part to get him to reach his arm up to grab her and thus stretching his armor and exposing his sweet sweet chest meat.
Agreed. You "see" her silently pass the White Walkers; the one Walker instinctively moves his head in her wake. Screaming is only disadvantageous, and she's not that stupid. So I think she wanted him to underestimate her, and then she improvised after that. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned screaming got him to turn around.
She looks like a child. He didn't see it coming.
I noticed last episode she was also playing that lying game with Gendry, asking him how many women he'd slept with. A reminder her intuition is keen when she wants it to be.
Sorry if this has been discussed but I gotta ask. Everyone keeps saying that the giant that killed Lyanna was Wun Wun. How on earth did Wun Wun die at Winterfell during season 6 at the BOB, then somehow end up beyond the wall as a whight at the beginning of season 7 during Bran's vision? I know he looks like Wun Wun and has one eye but the logistics of it don't make sense. Am I missing something?
Sorry if this has been discussed but I gotta ask. Everyone keeps saying that the giant that killed Lyanna was Wun Wun. How on earth did Wun Wun die at Winterfell during season 6 at the BOB, then somehow end up beyond the wall as a whight at the beginning of season 7 during Bran's vision? I know he looks like Wun Wun and has one eye but the logistics of it don't make sense. Am I missing something?
You aren't missing anything.They're wrong. Plain and simple.
One last thing with the Arya scene, not only did I think it was well done and made sense, I think every bit of it was tactically thought out by her. Because in that second when she is lunging at him, dagger raised and screaming at him, I thought, what are you doing?? Why are you yelling? But I think it was a calculated risk on her part to get him to reach his arm up to grab her and thus stretching his armor and exposing his sweet sweet chest meat.
That’s a lot of luck and circumstance. The Night King could have done a lot of different things there. He could have:
- side stepped her - grabbed her by the throat and crushed it before she had the option of dropping her dagger to the other hand - tossed her to the ground instead of holding her by the throat
My point really is there’s no way Arya could know how the Night King was going to act when she came from the clouds. She was fortunate to say the least.
And she could work with two of those things.
The instant-kill is hard but (1) there is plenty of reason to think she was thinking she had nothing to lose, (2) she might have seen how the NK didn't instant-kill Theon with magic or strength but outmaneuvered him, suggesting he liked to play.
I think they certainly set up Arya's skill sets for this, but does her internal planning really matter? This was a Hail Mary! Someone at the top of their game, executing against all odds at the last minute for the upset. You only hate to see it when you're on the losing end.
One last thing with the Arya scene, not only did I think it was well done and made sense, I think every bit of it was tactically thought out by her. Because in that second when she is lunging at him, dagger raised and screaming at him, I thought, what are you doing?? Why are you yelling? But I think it was a calculated risk on her part to get him to reach his arm up to grab her and thus stretching his armor and exposing his sweet sweet chest meat.
Agreed. You "see" her silently pass the White Walkers; the one Walker instinctively moves his head in her wake. Screaming is only disadvantageous, and she's not that stupid. So I think she wanted him to underestimate her, and then she improvised after that. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned screaming got him to turn around.
She looks like a child. He didn't see it coming.
I noticed last episode she was also playing that lying game with Gendry, asking him how many women he'd slept with. A reminder her intuition is keen when she wants it to be.
“Agreed. You "see" her silently pass the White Walkers; the one Walker instinctively moves his head in her wake.”
We’ve never seen Arya do this before or seen faceless men run faster than the speed of light which seems to be insinuated her. She’s so fast that she can’t be seen. If this was the case than she should be using this tactic a lot more.
“Screaming is only disadvantageous, and she's not that stupid. So I think she wanted him to underestimate her, and then she improvised after that. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned screaming got him to turn around.”
Her screaming was extremely stupid. If she didn’t she could have just daggered without him turning around. Instead, her screaming put her at the mercy of the Night King and him holding her in the perfect position for her dagger move.
I think they certainly set up Arya's skill sets for this, but does her internal planning really matter? This was a Hail Mary! Someone at the top of their game, executing against all odds at the last minute for the upset. You only hate to see it when you're on the losing end.
(Yeah this level of criticism is where it starts to feel sexist.)
Comments
You could argur that Dany should have held the Dothraki back during loot train, too. You play chess...don’t expose your queen. I didn’t like the plan (and neither did Dany), but that was there was a plan. I also don’t think you can expect Dothraki to run a flanking maneuver like the Lannister army. They clearly needed the Unsullied to protect the retreat.
https://www.kialo.com/melisandre-makes-various-predictions-which-turn-out-to-be-true-2331.323
Man, the show was broken for me a long time ago. It's been morphed into serving up big moments for several seasons now, as if that's why we like the show. A complete misunderstanding of what makes something like the Red Wedding satisfying. Or dragons satisfying. The show has been disregarding the groundwork of big moments in favor of just having big moments constantly. It's obvious that the show just broke for a few more people Sunday night. That's fine, welcome to the club. I think some people are subconsciously sexist with the Arya complaint, but I don't think everyone is; I can understand why you might not like it from a holistic standpoint. So have a seat in the We Watch GoT Although It's Bullshit club.
A shame really as seems just simply a couple of them going for Aryia or maybe a cheeky neck slit / achilles cut on the way & it's generally a well received scene.
Hope to see her perspective or Brans from another angle next episode.
This is why I never understood the whole "Arya becomes a white walker to kill the Night King" theory. You can't cut their faces off. They explode into a million shards of ice when you pierce their skin with anything that could kill them.
- side stepped her
- grabbed her by the throat and crushed it before she had the option of dropping her dagger to the other hand
- tossed her to the ground instead of holding her by the throat
My point really is there’s no way Arya could know how the Night King was going to act when she came from the clouds. She was fortunate to say the least.
Agreed. You "see" her silently pass the White Walkers; the one Walker instinctively moves his head in her wake. Screaming is only disadvantageous, and she's not that stupid. So I think she wanted him to underestimate her, and then she improvised after that. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned screaming got him to turn around.
She looks like a child. He didn't see it coming.
I noticed last episode she was also playing that lying game with Gendry, asking him how many women he'd slept with. A reminder her intuition is keen when she wants it to be.
And she could work with two of those things.
The instant-kill is hard but (1) there is plenty of reason to think she was thinking she had nothing to lose, (2) she might have seen how the NK didn't instant-kill Theon with magic or strength but outmaneuvered him, suggesting he liked to play.
“Agreed. You "see" her silently pass the White Walkers; the one Walker instinctively moves his head in her wake.”
We’ve never seen Arya do this before or seen faceless men run faster than the speed of light which seems to be insinuated her. She’s so fast that she can’t be seen. If this was the case than she should be using this tactic a lot more.
“Screaming is only disadvantageous, and she's not that stupid. So I think she wanted him to underestimate her, and then she improvised after that. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned screaming got him to turn around.”
Her screaming was extremely stupid. If she didn’t she could have just daggered without him turning around. Instead, her screaming put her at the mercy of the Night King and him holding her in the perfect position for her dagger move.
(Yeah this level of criticism is where it starts to feel sexist.)