That doesn't make any sense. And I don't think any of that was communicated in either this episode nor the previous episode if that really was the plan. Of course the castle was going to be overrun. They knew it was going to be overrun. They even set up defenses inside the wall.
What they didn't show was a planned landing spot for Jon and a guarded route to get to the Godswood. They didn't show a way to signal Jon to make his way back.
It would have actually made more sense to not rely on Jon at all. Jaime, Brienne, and a Jorah all had Valyrian steel swords as well. Keep Jon on the dragon and use the others on the ground.
If it was supposed to be Jon as the plan because of prophecy, that was never mentioned.
From what I remember from last week, the plan was dragon fire.
Holy shit. I feel real dumb for not realizing that Viserion was blocking the way. I thought he was just hunting down Jon. Obviously I knew Jon was going for Bran, but damn...if Jon does say Go Go Goooo then that is cool as hell!
@All the Chickens As far as Bran seeing the future, I am about 90/10 that he cannot. I long held that thought that he could because of the wildfire scene being in there but someone pointed out that the timelines might not exactly line up. So it could be a past event to Bran but not to us as viewers. That is a total GRRM move he pulls in the books but it's definitely not a show type of move so it's reasonable if people think that.
I personally think think Weirwoods can only give you sight of the past or the present.
@All the Chickens As far as Bran seeing the future, I am about 90/10 that he cannot. I long held that thought that he could because of the wildfire scene being in there but someone pointed out that the timelines might not exactly line up. So it could be a past event to Bran but not to us as viewers. That is a total GRRM move he pulls in the books but it's definitely not a show type of move so it's reasonable if people think that.
I personally think think Weirwoods can only give you sight of the past or the present.
Yeah, I've heard the idea thrown out there that that could have been a past event, but I just don't buy it. There is too much recorded history in the last 300 years (since there has been wildfire being made or a Kings Landing) for any event where a lot of wildfire exploding to not be in the history books. And again, they pulled that clip directly from the episode. It's not just similar clip of generic wildfire exploding in barrels-- it's just exact clip pulled from the wildefire explosion scene that would air 3 or 4 episodes after the vision occurred.
What "timeline issues" are they proposing? That Bran and Meera's escape from the tree cave could have occurred after the Sept explosion a few episodes later? I know that the scenes in different locations aren't all happening at the same time or concurrently, but I think that we would need some sort of evidence that this Bran vision scene in episode 6 is happening after the Sept explosion scene in episode 10.
Also, Bran has had other visions in earlier season well before he was endowed with the 3ER powers. He saw the Greyjoys taking over Winterfell well before it happened. I don't think that future visions happen in a way that makes Bran all-knowing, but I think there is more than enough evidence to say that he has had small glimpses of the future that he probably can't interpret to know everything.
I rewatched it. To me it still looks like he's just yelling, "GAAAAAH!!", but it does sound maybe like Go, and there are definitely two more "Go. Go." sounds after it cuts away. Like maybe it was added after the fact but also possibly planned from the start.
This makes me hate it all the more. It could have been fantastic.
Make it clear the goal is dragon fire and/or Valyrian steel. Dany and Jon on point, Jaime, Brienne, Jorah in strategic positions. Battle starts and gets screwed up, but we get to the point where Jon and Dany both see the dragonfire doesn't work. So Valyrian steel it is. Jon makes his attempt like in the show and fails, but it's okay, we have the other three ready to make their moves.
At various points we see Jaime, Brienne, and Jorah finding opportunities to try to make the kill and they all fail, giving a lot more meaning to get getting isolated and surrounded. We see the Night King enter through the archway past the undead dragon, and cut to inside the Godswood and him appearing there making it clear that's the same archway, and the path to getting to the Night King. Giving a clear sense of space for the audience to know what the goal is. Jon makes his couple attempts to get by and it's not working which I guess is on screen but I didn't get that while watching. And then make it clear he actually sees something off screen, then decides to try to distract the dragon because he can't get by. We could be thinking it could be any of the planned two/three, but afterwards we'll remember Arya showed him her dagger when they compared weapons (Did they? Or did she only show needle?). We cut back more to still surrounded Jaime, Brienne, and Jorah (who at some point has stopped trying for the Night King and decided to guard Dany instead.) Then we get the Arya kill.
Give actual stories to the characters on screen. Plot and not just character moments. Clear goals and dilemmas. Clear plans, and clear plans failing. And then the win. I would have loved that.
This gives characters like Jaime more motivation throughout the episode besides, fight, fight, save Brienne, fight, fight, get saved by Brienne, fight, fight. And Brienne vice versa. Possibly gives Dany more reason to land Drogon. Gives a different context for Jorah if he realizes he can't get to the Night King because there are just too many wights, but he can at least protect Dany. (Also gives more weight to Sam giving Jorah his sword, by making him a key part of the plan.) Gives plot reasons to keep cutting back to some of the named characters. And helps the audience understand the flow of the battle better.
@All the Chickens As far as Bran seeing the future, I am about 90/10 that he cannot. I long held that thought that he could because of the wildfire scene being in there but someone pointed out that the timelines might not exactly line up. So it could be a past event to Bran but not to us as viewers. That is a total GRRM move he pulls in the books but it's definitely not a show type of move so it's reasonable if people think that.
I personally think think Weirwoods can only give you sight of the past or the present.
Oh now that I've been been reminded, I think it's correct that he has visions of the future but doesn't necessarily know the complete future.
I do think either way, he could have known Arya was coming, or was already there hiding, or whatever she was doing, since he was warging during the whole time Theon et al was fighting off wights. So that might be why he was so chill. But he's always pretty chill nowadays so who knows.
That doesn't make any sense. And I don't think any of that was communicated in either this episode nor the previous episode if that really was the plan. Of course the castle was going to be overrun. They knew it was going to be overrun. They even set up defenses inside the wall.
What they didn't show was a planned landing spot for Jon and a guarded route to get to the Godswood. They didn't show a way to signal Jon to make his way back.
It would have actually made more sense to not rely on Jon at all. Jaime, Brienne, and a Jorah all had Valyrian steel swords as well. Keep Jon on the dragon and use the others on the ground.
If it was supposed to be Jon as the plan because of prophecy, that was never mentioned.
From what I remember from last week, the plan was dragon fire.
I thought it was supposed to be Jon because he's supposed to be their big hero, although that doesn't always play out the way it's supposed to. No one even checked with Arya to see if it's something she could handle, but only Bran might really know that she could. (That was what I was trying to say with my comments about her not bragging etc)
I'm still trying to get the gripes. It reads like: 1. Ghost died off screen!!!! WTF??? 2. Ghost is alive??? That makes no sense!! WTF??
If Ghost hadn't appeared, it would have been a WTF from someone? Ghost appears for 2 minutes, and it's a WTF? If Ghost had gotten killed in a big death scene, it would have cut time from something else.
My second comment was somewhat tongue in cheek. That being said, it's poor execution when people think two animal characters (Rhaegal and Ghost) are dead and you need a preview of the next episode to understand that they made it. There was no reasonable expectation that Ghost was alive after the Dothraki charge from what the show displayed for viewers.
On the dragonfire vs Valeryian steel thing: my sense is that you have to hit the NK in his heart to shatter the shard. That was also foreshadowed when the Hound told Arya to "strike at the heart." He might even be vulnerable to everyday ordinary steel at that spot.
Sometime I think no matter what they do on this show would ever be enough, they give you an amazing 80 min of TV on a budget thats like 10% of what most movies cost and all you can do is shit on it. No wonder these guys are done this fan base blows ass.
Someone said in the comments that this is why the Lord of Light resurrected Jon. I think that solidifies the theory for me -- currently, since more could be revealed next week. And Jon doesn't need to be yelling "Go," to distract the dragon... any yelling will do.
Honestly this excites me since the most egregious crime of the episode for me was Jon making that suicidal move.
Sometime I think no matter what they do on this show would ever be enough, they give you an amazing 80 min of TV on a budget thats like 10% of what most movies cost and all you can do is shit on it. No wonder these guys are done this fan base blows ass.
Honestly, this show has transcended past a "fanbase". Its most of the TV watching world who watch this show. So they have much more scrutiny than any other show and so many more fans that wont be pleased.
That said, as usual it's not as high of a percentage of viewers who were dissatisfied as people think. The people who are dissatisfied are just normally the most vocal about it in general, especially with casual viewers.
I've seen so many people who had positive initial reactions change their minds after they saw vocal hate for the episode by other media types who write about TV and movies.
Has anyone else ever noticed that or even understand that?
All the Chickens said:you might be right but if i were hbo and d&d i would just pull the rest of the episodes and say scew it, we all know George will never finsh this.
Sometime I think no matter what they do on this show would ever be enough, they give you an amazing 80 min of TV on a budget thats like 10% of what most movies cost and all you can do is shit on it. No wonder these guys are done this fan base blows ass.
Honestly, this show has transcended past a "fanbase". Its most of the TV watching world who watch this show. So they have much more scrutiny than any other show and so many more fans that wont be pleased.
That said, as usual it's not as high of a percentage of viewers who were dissatisfied as people think. The people who are dissatisfied are just normally the most vocal about it in general, especially with casual viewers.
I've seen so many people who had positive initial reactions change their minds after they saw vocal hate for the episode by other media types who write about TV and movies.
Has anyone else ever noticed that or even understand that?
Sometime I think no matter what they do on this show would ever be enough, they give you an amazing 80 min of TV on a budget thats like 10% of what most movies cost and all you can do is shit on it. No wonder these guys are done this fan base blows ass.
Honestly, this show has transcended past a "fanbase". Its most of the TV watching world who watch this show. So they have much more scrutiny than any other show and so many more fans that wont be pleased.
That said, as usual it's not as high of a percentage of viewers who were dissatisfied as people think. The people who are dissatisfied are just normally the most vocal about it in general, especially with casual viewers.
I've seen so many people who had positive initial reactions change their minds after they saw vocal hate for the episode by other media types who write about TV and movies.
Has anyone else ever noticed that or even understand that?
I don't think most of the people who watch GoT read forums or care at all about what people are discussing. I've had plenty of conversations IRL with people about GoT who have no clue these discussions are even going on. But I do see a lot of media outlets who are not really in their lane who are regurgitating complaints, "theories" etc. out of context. I'm thinking of stuff that gets posted on FB like People Magazine etc.
Why is it that people can't sincerely be disappointed with parts or entire episodes of shows? Why is it that there needs to be a nefarious psychological explanation?
In my case, the reason I was left sort of "meh" about this episode is because it dropped the really smart plotting of season 1 for the sort of marvel-esque special powers that were never mentioned and lots of close up of grunting faces of season 8.
Think back to the battle of the blackwater: a carefully foreshadowed and perfectly orchestrated trap that felt both earned, logical, and surprising. Or about Robb's use of direwolves against the Lannisters? Or how Edmure fucked up by beating Tywin instead of drawing him in? This is a book series and a show that took it's military tactics very seriously. And then this episode goes for the visually stunning but intellectually empty. If it had been that way from the start, sure, whatever. But it wasn't, and I think that explains why people who have invested 2 decades of their lives into this story may be disappointed with what is likely the only ending we're going to get, without having to go into any psychoanalysis.
Rewatched the episode today. It definitely has its flaws, but viscerally I liked just as much as the first time. The score alone during the climax is top tier TV.
Sometime I think no matter what they do on this show would ever be enough, they give you an amazing 80 min of TV on a budget thats like 10% of what most movies cost and all you can do is shit on it. No wonder these guys are done this fan base blows ass.
This is the only big battle I actively dislike. Black Water, Battle at the Wall, Hardhome, Battle of Bastards were all great. (Did I miss any?) Some had minor issues, but overall they hit it out of the park. They all share a clarity to the scenes and space and flow of battle that this episode just didn't have. Comparing it to other movies isn't the problem. The problem is that it can be compared to other battles from earlier episodes in the show.
Re: Why they charged/ why didn’t they play defense/ why they didn’t wait for the dead to attack. They’re weren’t on the defense, they were on the offense. The dead could literally have stood there for a week, month, year if they wanted to. And what food would the living have to wait them out? They needed to be the instigators.
I've seen so many people who had positive initial reactions change their minds after they saw vocal hate for the episode by other media types who write about TV and movies.
Has anyone else ever noticed that or even understand that?
I've actually found myself succumbing to the counter jerk. I have a fair amount of problems with the episode, but some of the rage around it just seems so ridiculous, I end up defending it.
Re: Why they charged/ why didn’t they play defense/ why they didn’t wait for the dead to attack. They’re weren’t on the defense, they were on the offense. The dead could literally have stood there for a week, month, year if they wanted to. And what food would the living have to wait them out? They needed to be the instigators.
It seems abundantly clear to me that John had to be in winterfell in order for Arya to be there. That was his purpose for the lord of light. Arya only went north because of John. There was only a defense at Winterfell because of John.
Of course, given what happened to Beric and Melisandre, does this mean we see the end of John before the season's over?
Sometime I think no matter what they do on this show would ever be enough, they give you an amazing 80 min of TV on a budget thats like 10% of what most movies cost and all you can do is shit on it. No wonder these guys are done this fan base blows ass.
This is the only big battle I actively dislike. Black Water, Battle at the Wall, Hardhome, Battle of Bastards were all great. (Did I miss any?) Some had minor issues, but overall they hit it out of the park. They all share a clarity to the scenes and space and flow of battle that this episode just didn't have. Comparing it to other movies isn't the problem. The problem is that it can be compared to other battles from earlier episodes in the show.
I actually liked it better than those other battles. It could just be because I'm so invested now in the characters and where everything is going to go, how things are going to wrap up, etc. It felt really messy and desperate to me too, but to me that was a good aspect of the storytelling if that makes sense? It made sense to me, especially after last week's episode where they spend so much time considering the fact that they were all about to die. I feel like it would be hard to keep your shit together in the face of that much fear and despair. (I would be interested in someone's point of view who has done military service to see if that makes sense.) And I liked the focus and kind of side stories on individual characters.
Someone said in the comments that this is why the Lord of Light resurrected Jon. I think that solidifies the theory for me -- currently, since more could be revealed next week. And Jon doesn't need to be yelling "Go," to distract the dragon... any yelling will do.
Honestly this excites me since the most egregious crime of the episode for me was Jon making that suicidal move.
I like this whole idea, but I think knowing what Arya was up to would have been better. She's half the fanbase's favorite character, one of the best actors on the show, and I'd be fully invested in watching her run that gauntlet to the Godswood. Much better than any benefit we got from the surprise. Not sore about it though.
Been reading a bunch of saltiness online about Azor Ahai not really panning out in any direct way, and I guess I never had any expectation in the show or books that it would come to anything. There's clearly magic in the world, but especially in the books it's unclear that the Lord of Light exists or directly grants power to his priests. My sense has been that magic has a presence in the world that ebbs and flows and people have managed to wrangle it for there purposes now and then. Some more than others, and not always intentionally. The show has shown magic working for a lot of red priests, but also the Children of the Forest, the Night King, and then there's whatever Dany has working for her.
It seems abundantly clear to me that John had to be in winterfell in order for Arya to be there. That was his purpose for the lord of light. Arya only went north because of John. There was only a defense at Winterfell because of John.
Of course, given what happened to Beric and Melisandre, does this mean we see the end of John before the season's over?
All good points. Jon is the only reason there was even a fight to begin with. The guy has sacrificed his body and life for the betterment of the realm time and time again. Without Jon, the white walkers destroy the north and their army is too unstoppable by the time anyone attempts to fight back in the south.
Jon is still the centerpiece to all of this, although Arya is the one who got the badass killshot. I also think Jon still has a huge role to play in ending these wars.
Although it will be weird, because Jon has always been about more of the existential threats, such as the undead or even stopping a 100k strong wildlings army from obliterating the entire north. It will be weird to see him fighting over who is going to sit on some throne.
People can have their opinions. I’m fine if some didn’t like it. I liked it.
I also think it’s unfair that D&D are being blamed for not following GRRM’s vision or whatever. They went into it thinking they were doing a complete adaptation and then that goober dropped the ball to go off hanging out at cons and faffing about with random histories of his fantasy world. They had to pick it up and run with it not much more than halfway through and I think they have done pretty well with what they had. And let’s face it, the book series is never getting finished.
Comments
What they didn't show was a planned landing spot for Jon and a guarded route to get to the Godswood. They didn't show a way to signal Jon to make his way back.
It would have actually made more sense to not rely on Jon at all. Jaime, Brienne, and a Jorah all had Valyrian steel swords as well. Keep Jon on the dragon and use the others on the ground.
If it was supposed to be Jon as the plan because of prophecy, that was never mentioned.
From what I remember from last week, the plan was dragon fire.
I personally think think Weirwoods can only give you sight of the past or the present.
And again, they pulled that clip directly from the episode. It's not just similar clip of generic wildfire exploding in barrels-- it's just exact clip pulled from the wildefire explosion scene that would air 3 or 4 episodes after the vision occurred.
What "timeline issues" are they proposing? That Bran and Meera's escape from the tree cave could have occurred after the Sept explosion a few episodes later? I know that the scenes in different locations aren't all happening at the same time or concurrently, but I think that we would need some sort of evidence that this Bran vision scene in episode 6 is happening after the Sept explosion scene in episode 10.
Also, Bran has had other visions in earlier season well before he was endowed with the 3ER powers. He saw the Greyjoys taking over Winterfell well before it happened. I don't think that future visions happen in a way that makes Bran all-knowing, but I think there is more than enough evidence to say that he has had small glimpses of the future that he probably can't interpret to know everything.
This makes me hate it all the more. It could have been fantastic.
Make it clear the goal is dragon fire and/or Valyrian steel. Dany and Jon on point, Jaime, Brienne, Jorah in strategic positions. Battle starts and gets screwed up, but we get to the point where Jon and Dany both see the dragonfire doesn't work. So Valyrian steel it is. Jon makes his attempt like in the show and fails, but it's okay, we have the other three ready to make their moves.
At various points we see Jaime, Brienne, and Jorah finding opportunities to try to make the kill and they all fail, giving a lot more meaning to get getting isolated and surrounded. We see the Night King enter through the archway past the undead dragon, and cut to inside the Godswood and him appearing there making it clear that's the same archway, and the path to getting to the Night King. Giving a clear sense of space for the audience to know what the goal is. Jon makes his couple attempts to get by and it's not working which I guess is on screen but I didn't get that while watching. And then make it clear he actually sees something off screen, then decides to try to distract the dragon because he can't get by. We could be thinking it could be any of the planned two/three, but afterwards we'll remember Arya showed him her dagger when they compared weapons (Did they? Or did she only show needle?). We cut back more to still surrounded Jaime, Brienne, and Jorah (who at some point has stopped trying for the Night King and decided to guard Dany instead.) Then we get the Arya kill.
Give actual stories to the characters on screen. Plot and not just character moments. Clear goals and dilemmas. Clear plans, and clear plans failing. And then the win. I would have loved that.
This gives characters like Jaime more motivation throughout the episode besides, fight, fight, save Brienne, fight, fight, get saved by Brienne, fight, fight. And Brienne vice versa. Possibly gives Dany more reason to land Drogon. Gives a different context for Jorah if he realizes he can't get to the Night King because there are just too many wights, but he can at least protect Dany. (Also gives more weight to Sam giving Jorah his sword, by making him a key part of the plan.) Gives plot reasons to keep cutting back to some of the named characters. And helps the audience understand the flow of the battle better.
I do think either way, he could have known Arya was coming, or was already there hiding, or whatever she was doing, since he was warging during the whole time Theon et al was fighting off wights. So that might be why he was so chill. But he's always pretty chill nowadays so who knows.
Spoiler: that's what happens on Babylon 5. No one believes the huge Lord of the Rings story after it happens.
Someone said in the comments that this is why the Lord of Light resurrected Jon. I think that solidifies the theory for me -- currently, since more could be revealed next week. And Jon doesn't need to be yelling "Go," to distract the dragon... any yelling will do.
Honestly this excites me since the most egregious crime of the episode for me was Jon making that suicidal move.
That said, as usual it's not as high of a percentage of viewers who were dissatisfied as people think. The people who are dissatisfied are just normally the most vocal about it in general, especially with casual viewers.
I've seen so many people who had positive initial reactions change their minds after they saw vocal hate for the episode by other media types who write about TV and movies.
Has anyone else ever noticed that or even understand that?
Of course, given what happened to Beric and Melisandre, does this mean we see the end of John before the season's over?
Been reading a bunch of saltiness online about Azor Ahai not really panning out in any direct way, and I guess I never had any expectation in the show or books that it would come to anything. There's clearly magic in the world, but especially in the books it's unclear that the Lord of Light exists or directly grants power to his priests. My sense has been that magic has a presence in the world that ebbs and flows and people have managed to wrangle it for there purposes now and then. Some more than others, and not always intentionally. The show has shown magic working for a lot of red priests, but also the Children of the Forest, the Night King, and then there's whatever Dany has working for her.
Jon is still the centerpiece to all of this, although Arya is the one who got the badass killshot. I also think Jon still has a huge role to play in ending these wars.
Although it will be weird, because Jon has always been about more of the existential threats, such as the undead or even stopping a 100k strong wildlings army from obliterating the entire north. It will be weird to see him fighting over who is going to sit on some throne.
I also think it’s unfair that D&D are being blamed for not following GRRM’s vision or whatever. They went into it thinking they were doing a complete adaptation and then that goober dropped the ball to go off hanging out at cons and faffing about with random histories of his fantasy world. They had to pick it up and run with it not much more than halfway through and I think they have done pretty well with what they had. And let’s face it, the book series is never getting finished.