805 - The Bells

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Comments

  • Dany being "mad queen" is probably the least worst part of the episode. They did nice callbacks and thought did a good job making her grief-stricken look evoke the Mad King Aerys. I was ready to roll with it. They Varys stuff rubbed me the wrong way, but I figured he was just at the end of his rope like many excused the death of Littlefinger.

    But then she just commits genocide for no reason. Even when she took off I thought she might burn the column of soldiers (still really bad), but she started with the civilians. Aerys planned to blow King's Landing when he knew all was lost. Dany had taken King's Landing then just says fuck it?
    manhattnikken halejessayElisabbordMarcitelephoneofmadnessrustywright4hiknmt07
  • I'm fine with Dany's official fall from grace, however I really think we needed just one more episode of seeing her psyche hang in the balance. I agree with folks that they built to her doing something like this for seasons, but it still felt a little inorganic when she made the decision to burn the city down after the bells. 

    Maybe a reminder of how bitter Dany truly was of the sacking of the city when her father was king. I don't know. I'm not a writer, I just know I needed one more episode. I get it though. The logistics with it being a 6 episode season makes that hard. 
    jessaybbordDaveyMac
  • asmallcat said:
    Hey guys, remember how Jamie literally tried to murder a child for Cersei? And stood by her when she murdered, like, 5k innocents around the sept of baelor? Pepperrigde Farm remembers. He's a bad guy. 

    Also, the "don't look at reddit" rule remains in effect. Puppies were straight up murdered this time, apparently. 
    Yes. It isn’t that that he said that he was going back for her. It’s that people expected an infatuation for Brienne to overcome a lifetime of codependency with his damn sister. Cmon!!
    CeciliaMElisa
  • manhattnikmanhattnik the big apple
    Dany expected to be hailed as The Liberator when she arrived in Westeros, and she never got over it not happening. 
    CeciliaMb.larev
  • Ok I enjoyed the episode. I listened to the first couple minutes of the instant take and the guys negativity made me shut it off. I’ll finish listening sometime this week but seriously all this bald move fan bankruptcy shit had bummed me out.  

    And man man we finally got CleganeBowl!!! 
    Benscotthuntoon@gmail.comrkcrawfFeezite
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Anyone who thinks that other people don't affect the opinions of others, even *gasps* podcasters, is kidding themselves.

    Especially with people who get on reddit. The hatred towards something is a snowball effect in those communities that shouts down all positivity and level-headed thinking.  General audiences are mostly enjoying the episodes, but you probably won't catch them on r/asoiaf stanning for Dany.
    If people want a podcast that is on the writers side, go listen to Joanna Robinson. J&A, even when I disagree with them, always say they'll not sway their opinions to bring in more money or fandom. I listen to hear their take, not to hear my own take.
    On the contrary, I've always greatly favored BM over Joanna and the podcasts she is on. BM have always tended to be more fan-friendly and steered away from getting lost in the forest of BS. So much so that I've financially supported BM and never given a cent to JR's Storm of Spoilers or Cast of Kings, and did not listen to either this past week.

    I've never minded BM being negative towards something I enjoyed, as long as I thought it was fair.
    BenawookieeUnderwoodrkcrawf
  • manhattnikmanhattnik the big apple
    Didn't anyone else look at the tidy line of scorpions on the King's Landing wall last week and ... connect the dots? I wasn't surprised that Dany took out most of them with one strafing run. 
    rkcrawfCeciliaMchuck1991
  • hisdudeness915hisdudeness915 Atlanta, Ga

    asmallcat said:
    Hey guys, remember how Jamie literally tried to murder a child for Cersei? And stood by her when she murdered, like, 5k innocents around the sept of baelor? Pepperrigde Farm remembers. He's a bad guy. 

    Also, the "don't look at reddit" rule remains in effect. Puppies were straight up murdered this time, apparently. 
    Yes. It isn’t that that he said that he was going back for her. It’s that people expected an infatuation for Brienne to overcome a lifetime of codependency with his damn sister. Cmon!!
    I kinda knew this was gonna be an issue if Jamie ended up not killing Cersei. The guys were so all in on Jamie going there to kill her but that was a total misread of the Brienne scene last week.
    CeciliaMrkcrawf
  • LordByLordBy Utah
    CeciliaM said:
    LordBy said:
    CeciliaM said:
    Ok so about the episode- I thought the tension was great during the moments when you're waiting for the bells to ring, you know the bells are going to ring because everyone says "ring the bells" and then they ring the bells, with Daenerys sitting there on Drogon the whole time, you're thinking... what if she can't hear them? What if she does some kind of loophole where she starts burning down the city before they actually ring the bells even though everybody already knows that the bells are going to ring? But no! She sits there waiting, the bells ring, everyone but Cersei is saved, and then she BURNS DOWN THE CITY ANYWAY! I thought it was a great buildup to that moment.

    I find Arya's survival somewhat unbelievable given what she went through, and I think they could have made it more believable. She's good at getting in and out of situations but if you see dragon fire take her over and then she's still alive.. What? But the scene where she rode away on a horse was kind of cool. And the makeup job they did on her was great.

    Cleganebowl lived up to the hype. Cersei and Jaime dying together has a certain justice. And that's a pretty horrible death, right? Not really a death to sneer at. 

    My 16 year old is sitting next to me asking why she doesn’t just burn the Red Keep to the ground after she’s done with the Golden Company (point of which being in the show was what?) with Cersi in it which is who she really hates anyway? Why bother burninnthe city itself?

    I struggled to explain it. Basically: she’s “mad”
    She decided she needed fear to rule. So she's instilling fear in case people find out Jon is "the rightful heir" and think they can topple her easily. She wants to show she can win a war by herself (well, with her "child") and doesn't "really" need the North, the Dothraki, the Unsullied or any other army. If she had stood down when the bells rang, there was no guarantee she was going to sit on the Iron Throne without instilling fear in people.
    Burning the Red Keep to the ground after the city surrendered, destroying all those who wronged her with all of the innocent surviving citizens of Kings Landing bearing witness to her power and telling all of their friends and family about it for generations, would accomplish that. Burning the city to the ground can’t be defended except by her being just cray-cray.
    jessayElisadarthcaedus1138
  • Wow may just listen to another cast for this show. They are gonna be a super bummer and downer to listen to from here on out
    I'm not going to listen to the instacast until tomorrow AM, but I have had to do that with a couple of podcasts so far this past week. Probably not with BM though unless they are both just annoyingly negative and nitpicking easily explainable things and pretending that these characters havent earned the things they did in this episode just because they dont personally like what they did. That's when I tune out. I couldn't even begin to listen to Storm Of Spoilers this week.
    Prepare yourself. It's an onslaught of negativity.
  • Didn't anyone else look at the tidy line of scorpions on the King's Landing wall last week and ... connect the dots? I wasn't surprised that Dany took out most of them with one strafing run. 
    And people said this. A good strafe run from behind or the flank solves this problem. Even more, attack at night, which was suggested, solves the problem. 
    manhattnikCeciliaM
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    Let’s not forget that she has lost total faith in Tyrion. Who asked her to stop the Attack when the Bells ring.

    she also has no one left she can trust. She has no Advisors and no she believes in. She feels isolated and by herself and made a decision by herself. There was no one she could consult. 

    its also possible she learned that Jaime escaped which could have even pissed her off more. 

    Like I said she’s proven multiple times she prefers fear over mercy. Killing Farmers, soldiers, leaders, etc. If you put 2 and 2 together it’s not that crazy to think she decided to burn it down. Not trusting Tyrion and playing the fear card. 


    CeciliaM
  • edited May 13
    I didn't even like this episode that much, but I may skip the instant take for the first time since discovering this podcast. I feel like I know what's wrong with this episode, I don't need 20 minutes of piling on. 

    Edit - That sounded harsher than I meant it to. I will still happily listen to the main and spoilore podcasts cause I love J&A's analysis and thoughts on shows, but no one is gonna have super insightful thoughts 20 minutes after an 80-minute episode they didn't like at all. 
    bbord
  • kuman07kuman07 Kansas City
    edited May 13
    I, for one, am impressed Dany achieved on her first day what her father never could in burning down the city.
    manhattnikb.larevZoner07
  • I think if Missandei had said anything other than “Dracarys” King’s Landing is a lot less charcoal-y
    chriskjessayDemerolDoctor_NickFeezite
  • manhattnikmanhattnik the big apple
    I thought the whole idea of declaring Fan Bankruptcy was to stop expecting things to make sense, and just sit back and enjoy the ride. I did, and it was a helluva ride. 

    Having said that, it would've been very Game of Thronesy if, after killing the Night King, Arya were to have died ignobly, trampled beneath a herd of panicked civilians. After all, her plot armor account had to have been way, way overdrawn by how she snuck through all those wights and White Walkers.  

    It would also have been very GOTsy for Jaime to die before he could reach Cersei. 

    And by GOTsy I mean how the show used to be. 

    Instead, we get Varys' out of character capture and death. 

    What's the opposite of Plot Armor? Plot Arya. Thanks, I'll be here all week. 
    majjam0770ElisaDoctor_Nick
  • I have re-watched the entire series 4 times and can tell you with certainty that Dany and Jamie’s actions are 100% in line with their character. I don’t like it, just like I don’t like it when Ned gave Cersei a chance to leave KL or when Robb fell in love because he’s a horny teenager. But those were also in line with their character. Something out of character this episode was Varys being so openly treasonous. Now that was out of character 
    I couldn't agree more. I've thought for quite a while that Dany has a fair to good chance to go mad queen especially if she's pushed over the edge. Losing a dragon and the person she's been closest to and has followed her for several years is definitely enough to push her over the edge in my opinion.
    hisdudeness915manhattnikbbordDoctor_Nick
  • hisdudeness915hisdudeness915 Atlanta, Ga
    edited May 13
    If this is how it goes down in the books, people are gonna be even more pissed. “I wasted all those hours trying to untie the Meerenese Knot for that?”  :D
    CapeGabe
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    edited May 13
    I think this is a perfect episode IF it had a better lead up. I was fine with the mad queen story but wasn’t quite prepared for genocide. I figured maybe she cooks Varys or Tyrion or Jaime. 

    Tonally I just don’t think you can complain when the show has hinted consistently what it is. 

    That said, it was hard to watch. I think I may like it more as time goes on. It’s a bold choice and I think it’s logical, it just felt off. I think building in some more time for Dany to fester would’ve gone a long way. At least an episode. 

    Kind of hate that that we spent that much time on a Cleganebowl when the Mountian isn’t even himself. I’ve always felt that was an empty pursuit. 

    Someone should check for a link between Dothraki and Mogwai. I think the Dothraki all took baths after the battle of Winterfell. 
    CeciliaMken halemajjam0770bbordDeedarthcaedus1138Doctor_Nick
  • I kind of hope next episode starts with Bran at the Weirwood inside Dany's mind saying "BURN IT! BURN IT ALL!"
    manhattnikCeciliaMFullauto2009MoonMan13
  • Honestly, everything in this episode made narrative sense.  They've been setting the stage for the Mad Queen for a long time.  In the behind the episode - the DD's said that Dany didn't decide to burn the city until the moment she sat and stared at the Red Keep - in that moment, she realized it was the symbol of the place that brought down her family and set her on her path, and when she finally saw it, she just snapped.  I totally get that, but I wish they would have made that moment a little more clear in the show.

    I'm with everyone else on the Euron-Jaime fight - I mean, WTF??  Completely unwanted or needed.  Any they literally could've thrown a dart at a board of ideas and hit ANYTHING better than Jaime and Cersei buried in rubble.

    This episode was just visually stunning as always.  I mean, the POWER of the flame from that dragon has never been depicted better on any show ever.  Clegane Bowl was everything I wanted it to be.

    Mixed on Arya.  The showrunners wanted us so stick with a main character down on the streets to show the devestation - but this was a FAceless Man who killed the Fucking Night King.  Wrong character POV for this.

    Last episode?  Tyrion is executed for betraying Dany.  Jon or Arya or both kill Dany, and they might ALL die as the unsullied retailiate.   Bittersweet, indeed.  So the survivors - Sam, who writes A Song of Ice and Fire....and Davos?

    If I were Martin, I wouldn't bother finishing the books.
    BendarthfodderElisavisi0nO1orin
  • edited May 13
    So what was the foreshadowing that she would murder innocent people for no reason? Because she killed people in power multiple times? Her anger was always directed at those in power. Now, it's that she just murders anyone when her feelings get hurt. It took 8 seasons to tell that story. Feels like a waste of time, tbh. 
    majjam0770Elisabbordrustywright4darthcaedus1138MFGhiknmt07
  • I really don't get the "you are too negative, i quit" posts. I listen to bald move because i value their honest opinions.  What's the point of saying that and not even addressing their criticisms? "Paint a positive picture or else?..."

    They are hardly alone in noticing the mess that the story has become. Hbo was the one that chose to end the series in 6 episodes. 
    kojiattwoodGredalBeeken haleBloodyTacoElisabbordGondwanalandiarustywright4visi0ndarthcaedus1138and 2 others.
  • edited May 13
    It seems like all we get is either it’s all fine or all bad. Both aren’t true. Yes it’s true that Jamie’s character has been infatuated with Cersei, but we start to like him again because they build his character to be something more. Then at the end he just undoes all the building for no foreseeable reason. At the end of season 7 he was done with her and then runs back with no explanation and livers again with nothing. It betrays what they built. 
    For Dany yes the mad queen stuff was always there. But what she does this episode goes beyond that. She doesn’t burn just those who wronged her and her enemies. She burns everyone. It also seemed like she was burning allies. She flips so far in one episode that it feels out of character even if they were building mad queen signs.
    The last real problem is that they keep swinging to one side being overwhelming instead of ever having an equal fight. Last week they instantly kill a dragon and take a prisoner. This week Dany kills he wholenfleet and whole city with them only being able to even shoot like two scorpion bolts. There isn’t much tension in instant wins both way constantly.
    manhattnikjessayElisarustywright4
  • LordByLordBy Utah
    imadness said:
    Honestly, everything in this episode made narrative sense.  They've been setting the stage for the Mad Queen for a long time.  In the behind the episode - the DD's said that Dany didn't decide to burn the city until the moment she sat and stared at the Red Keep - in that moment, she realized it was the symbol of the place that brought down her family and set her on her path, and when she finally saw it, she just snapped.  I totally get that, but I wish they would have made that moment a little more clear in the show
    So burn the Red Keep to ash. Make it into a simmering pit of molten lava. By why the city of innocents first? Why not focus on the keep?
    BloodyTacojessayElisabbordrustywright4darthcaedus1138rkcrawf
  • manhattnikmanhattnik the big apple

    asmallcat said:
    Hey guys, remember how Jamie literally tried to murder a child for Cersei? And stood by her when she murdered, like, 5k innocents around the sept of baelor? Pepperrigde Farm remembers. He's a bad guy. 

    Also, the "don't look at reddit" rule remains in effect. Puppies were straight up murdered this time, apparently. 
    Yes. It isn’t that that he said that he was going back for her. It’s that people expected an infatuation for Brienne to overcome a lifetime of codependency with his damn sister. Cmon!!
    I kinda knew this was gonna be an issue if Jamie ended up not killing Cersei. The guys were so all in on Jamie going there to kill her but that was a total misread of the Brienne scene last week.
    I kinda liked that. I'd call it a classic GOT fakeout, except it was probably giving D&D too much credit to believe they were setting us up for Jamie to do anything other than what he always did. So he wasn't being a dick to Brienne to save her feelings, he was just being a dick. A very self-aware dick, but a dick nonetheless . 
    rkcrawf
  • mtron32mtron32 San Diego
    I was holding on as long as I could. I made excuses, and I was optimistic. I can't process Dany right now...

    But Jaime and Cersei? That's how they go? After everything they've done, no one actually gets to kill either one of them?

    I think I'm going to do it, I'm probably hitting that bankruptcy button.
    I hit that button the moment they ran out of book material, result: I was able to enjoy this bullshit on a purley episode 3 level.  Goooooood Khaleesi, let the hate flow.
    ken haleElisarustywright4
  • edited May 13
    .
  • LordBy said:
    CeciliaM said:
    LordBy said:
    CeciliaM said:
    Ok so about the episode- I thought the tension was great during the moments when you're waiting for the bells to ring, you know the bells are going to ring because everyone says "ring the bells" and then they ring the bells, with Daenerys sitting there on Drogon the whole time, you're thinking... what if she can't hear them? What if she does some kind of loophole where she starts burning down the city before they actually ring the bells even though everybody already knows that the bells are going to ring? But no! She sits there waiting, the bells ring, everyone but Cersei is saved, and then she BURNS DOWN THE CITY ANYWAY! I thought it was a great buildup to that moment.

    I find Arya's survival somewhat unbelievable given what she went through, and I think they could have made it more believable. She's good at getting in and out of situations but if you see dragon fire take her over and then she's still alive.. What? But the scene where she rode away on a horse was kind of cool. And the makeup job they did on her was great.

    Cleganebowl lived up to the hype. Cersei and Jaime dying together has a certain justice. And that's a pretty horrible death, right? Not really a death to sneer at. 

    My 16 year old is sitting next to me asking why she doesn’t just burn the Red Keep to the ground after she’s done with the Golden Company (point of which being in the show was what?) with Cersi in it which is who she really hates anyway? Why bother burninnthe city itself?

    I struggled to explain it. Basically: she’s “mad”
    She decided she needed fear to rule. So she's instilling fear in case people find out Jon is "the rightful heir" and think they can topple her easily. She wants to show she can win a war by herself (well, with her "child") and doesn't "really" need the North, the Dothraki, the Unsullied or any other army. If she had stood down when the bells rang, there was no guarantee she was going to sit on the Iron Throne without instilling fear in people.
    Burning the Red Keep to the ground after the city surrendered, destroying all those who wronged her with all of the innocent surviving citizens of Kings Landing bearing witness to her power and telling all of their friends and family about it for generations, would accomplish that. Burning the city to the ground can’t be defended except by her being just cray-cray.
    I'm not saying it was a great decision. But she's gained power through brutality many times. Why stop now? 
  • I am interested in the story that GRRM is telling, and DnD are adapting.  It is: War is Hell.  This is the truth.   
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