805 - The Bells

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Comments

  • AaronAaron Newton, MA
    It seems pretty clear to me that this is how GRRM wanted things to play out. He may do it better in the books if they ever come out, but I have a hard time believing the show runners would make Daenerys go berserk if it wasn’t in the outline. Likewise with Cersei and Jaime. The other characters I’m not sure about, but Daenerys and Jon are literally the central characters.
    ken haleMurderbeardarthfodderRosevisi0nhoos30Zoner07
  • HunkuleseHunkulese Québec, Canada
    edited May 13
    A lot of people seem to be misunderstanding why the genocide wasn't in Dany's character or set up at all. There's been zero setup to suggest that Dany would be capable of murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent surrendering people after she'd decisively won the battle. She decided to murder everyone and everything right when she achieved everything she'd been working towards.

    It would have been so easy to make it all make sense and work too. All they had to do was have the battle not going in her favour and she decides she has to wake the dragon to win and then can't shut it off. That would make sense. The way they did it makes her just acting crazy because she's crazy. It would have even been better if the episode had just opened to dragon genocide immediately after the Missandei death.
    ken haleBloodyTacojessayElisabbordCapeGabeSchluppDemicBroRad33telephoneofmadnessand 2 others.
  • manhattnikmanhattnik the big apple
    Usually I enjoy these shows more the second time around when I have given up on expecting them to make sense. 

    I have to agree that it's a waste of Jaime's character arc to have him essentially dump Brienne for Cersei. A waste of Brienne's, too. 
    CapeGabe
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Yeah guys, it would have been awesome if Jaime and Cersei had gotten on a row boat, and Jaime bled to death before Cersei was inevitably captured because she's in a fucking row boat with no where to go, no way to survive off the land and no allies anywhere.

    Or maybe they could have jumped out of a window or died in an explosion. Who cares?
  • HunkuleseHunkulese Québec, Canada
    CeciliaM said:
    LordBy said:
    CeciliaM said:
    LordBy said:
    CeciliaM said:
    Ok so about the episode- I thought the tension was great during the moments when you're waiting for the bells to ring, you know the bells are going to ring because everyone says "ring the bells" and then they ring the bells, with Daenerys sitting there on Drogon the whole time, you're thinking... what if she can't hear them? What if she does some kind of loophole where she starts burning down the city before they actually ring the bells even though everybody already knows that the bells are going to ring? But no! She sits there waiting, the bells ring, everyone but Cersei is saved, and then she BURNS DOWN THE CITY ANYWAY! I thought it was a great buildup to that moment.

    I find Arya's survival somewhat unbelievable given what she went through, and I think they could have made it more believable. She's good at getting in and out of situations but if you see dragon fire take her over and then she's still alive.. What? But the scene where she rode away on a horse was kind of cool. And the makeup job they did on her was great.

    Cleganebowl lived up to the hype. Cersei and Jaime dying together has a certain justice. And that's a pretty horrible death, right? Not really a death to sneer at. 

    My 16 year old is sitting next to me asking why she doesn’t just burn the Red Keep to the ground after she’s done with the Golden Company (point of which being in the show was what?) with Cersi in it which is who she really hates anyway? Why bother burninnthe city itself?

    I struggled to explain it. Basically: she’s “mad”
    She decided she needed fear to rule. So she's instilling fear in case people find out Jon is "the rightful heir" and think they can topple her easily. She wants to show she can win a war by herself (well, with her "child") and doesn't "really" need the North, the Dothraki, the Unsullied or any other army. If she had stood down when the bells rang, there was no guarantee she was going to sit on the Iron Throne without instilling fear in people.
    Burning the Red Keep to the ground after the city surrendered, destroying all those who wronged her with all of the innocent surviving citizens of Kings Landing bearing witness to her power and telling all of their friends and family about it for generations, would accomplish that. Burning the city to the ground can’t be defended except by her being just cray-cray.
    I'm not saying it was a great decision. But she's gained power through brutality many times. Why stop now? 
    Because she'd already won and had all the power.
    BloodyTacotelephoneofmadnesschuck1991
  • edited May 13
    asmallcat said:
    I didn't even like this episode that much, but I may skip the instant take for the first time since discovering this podcast. I feel like I know what's wrong with this episode, I don't need 20 minutes of piling on. 

    Edit - That sounded harsher than I meant it to. I will still happily listen to the main and spoilore podcasts cause I love J&A's analysis and thoughts on shows, but no one is gonna have super insightful thoughts 20 minutes after an 80-minute episode they didn't like at all. 
    I thought this one was fair, though maybe a little hyperbolic. I prefer to hear them tearing into the plot and character work, versus the technical/visual stuff like a lot of episode 3 had. Not that I disagree with the latter, it's just that how many times can you talk about someone surviving when they shouldn't, etc.

    I get that people can just be in it for the spectacle of Game of Thrones, I don't judge. But do you want them to be Chris Farleying: "Hey remember when the Mountain fought the Hound? That was cool..." for an hour?
    Elisarustywright4
  • I don't think anything has been out of character, but they've crammed 2 seasons of material into 7 episodes and there's consequences for that.  Jamie sleeps with another woman for the first time in his life and 15 minutes later he's running back to Cersei.  Dany loses a dragon, her best friend, a beloved knight, is betrayed by her council, and goes mad in TWO episodes.  Holy shit, you must see how jarring and breakneck that is.  If it played out over a full length season with time to breathe, I think it would be a lot more satisfying, but that ain't what we got.

    On a side note, I was spoiled on Twitter.  Somebody outlined the events after 802 and they've been dead on.  If you think the fandom is this contentious now, goddamn just wait.
    ElisarkcrawfDoctor_Nickjsny88
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited May 13
    Hunkulese said:
    CeciliaM said:
    LordBy said:
    CeciliaM said:
    LordBy said:
    CeciliaM said:
    Ok so about the episode- I thought the tension was great during the moments when you're waiting for the bells to ring, you know the bells are going to ring because everyone says "ring the bells" and then they ring the bells, with Daenerys sitting there on Drogon the whole time, you're thinking... what if she can't hear them? What if she does some kind of loophole where she starts burning down the city before they actually ring the bells even though everybody already knows that the bells are going to ring? But no! She sits there waiting, the bells ring, everyone but Cersei is saved, and then she BURNS DOWN THE CITY ANYWAY! I thought it was a great buildup to that moment.

    I find Arya's survival somewhat unbelievable given what she went through, and I think they could have made it more believable. She's good at getting in and out of situations but if you see dragon fire take her over and then she's still alive.. What? But the scene where she rode away on a horse was kind of cool. And the makeup job they did on her was great.

    Cleganebowl lived up to the hype. Cersei and Jaime dying together has a certain justice. And that's a pretty horrible death, right? Not really a death to sneer at. 

    My 16 year old is sitting next to me asking why she doesn’t just burn the Red Keep to the ground after she’s done with the Golden Company (point of which being in the show was what?) with Cersi in it which is who she really hates anyway? Why bother burninnthe city itself?

    I struggled to explain it. Basically: she’s “mad”
    She decided she needed fear to rule. So she's instilling fear in case people find out Jon is "the rightful heir" and think they can topple her easily. She wants to show she can win a war by herself (well, with her "child") and doesn't "really" need the North, the Dothraki, the Unsullied or any other army. If she had stood down when the bells rang, there was no guarantee she was going to sit on the Iron Throne without instilling fear in people.
    Burning the Red Keep to the ground after the city surrendered, destroying all those who wronged her with all of the innocent surviving citizens of Kings Landing bearing witness to her power and telling all of their friends and family about it for generations, would accomplish that. Burning the city to the ground can’t be defended except by her being just cray-cray.
    I'm not saying it was a great decision. But she's gained power through brutality many times. Why stop now? 
    Because she'd already won and had all the power.
    Nothing makes a statement of fear like burning down a city that is also the symbol of your hatred, loneliness, insecurities and everything bad that has happened to your family and your friends.

    She stated that no one loves her here (Westeros) and only has fear to rule with. Who is going to try to overthrow her now? Sure she could have burned down the Red Keep instead of choosing violence, but that would not have been narratively satisfying to me.
    CeciliaMdarthfodder
  • MichaelGMichaelG Seattle
    I liked it. 

    Its ok Jim and Aron didn’t.

    I’ll still listen bc I like Bald Move and don’t mind disagreement, even welcome it. 

    Everyone needs to relax and have a drink. 
    Murderbearawookieeb.larevdarthfodderbbordDeeAussieGregdarthcaedus1138chuck1991liquidmeliand 3 others.
  • HunkuleseHunkulese Québec, Canada
    Hunkulese said:
    CeciliaM said:
    LordBy said:
    CeciliaM said:
    LordBy said:
    CeciliaM said:
    Ok so about the episode- I thought the tension was great during the moments when you're waiting for the bells to ring, you know the bells are going to ring because everyone says "ring the bells" and then they ring the bells, with Daenerys sitting there on Drogon the whole time, you're thinking... what if she can't hear them? What if she does some kind of loophole where she starts burning down the city before they actually ring the bells even though everybody already knows that the bells are going to ring? But no! She sits there waiting, the bells ring, everyone but Cersei is saved, and then she BURNS DOWN THE CITY ANYWAY! I thought it was a great buildup to that moment.

    I find Arya's survival somewhat unbelievable given what she went through, and I think they could have made it more believable. She's good at getting in and out of situations but if you see dragon fire take her over and then she's still alive.. What? But the scene where she rode away on a horse was kind of cool. And the makeup job they did on her was great.

    Cleganebowl lived up to the hype. Cersei and Jaime dying together has a certain justice. And that's a pretty horrible death, right? Not really a death to sneer at. 

    My 16 year old is sitting next to me asking why she doesn’t just burn the Red Keep to the ground after she’s done with the Golden Company (point of which being in the show was what?) with Cersi in it which is who she really hates anyway? Why bother burninnthe city itself?

    I struggled to explain it. Basically: she’s “mad”
    She decided she needed fear to rule. So she's instilling fear in case people find out Jon is "the rightful heir" and think they can topple her easily. She wants to show she can win a war by herself (well, with her "child") and doesn't "really" need the North, the Dothraki, the Unsullied or any other army. If she had stood down when the bells rang, there was no guarantee she was going to sit on the Iron Throne without instilling fear in people.
    Burning the Red Keep to the ground after the city surrendered, destroying all those who wronged her with all of the innocent surviving citizens of Kings Landing bearing witness to her power and telling all of their friends and family about it for generations, would accomplish that. Burning the city to the ground can’t be defended except by her being just cray-cray.
    I'm not saying it was a great decision. But she's gained power through brutality many times. Why stop now? 
    Because she'd already won and had all the power.
    Nothing makes a statement of fear like burning down a city that is also the symbol of your hatred, loneliness, insecurities and everything bad that has happened to your family and your friends.

    She stated that no one loves her here (Westeros) and only has fear to rule with. Who is going to try to overthrow her now? Sure she could have burned down the Red Keep instead of choosing violence, but that would not have been narratively satisfying to me.
    Who's left to fear her? She murdered them all. But I guess if the Long Night taught us anything, most people probably survived with minor burns and bruises.
    majjam0770rustywright4budesignsdarthcaedus1138jenetee
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Hunkulese said:
    Hunkulese said:
    CeciliaM said:
    LordBy said:
    CeciliaM said:
    LordBy said:
    CeciliaM said:
    Ok so about the episode- I thought the tension was great during the moments when you're waiting for the bells to ring, you know the bells are going to ring because everyone says "ring the bells" and then they ring the bells, with Daenerys sitting there on Drogon the whole time, you're thinking... what if she can't hear them? What if she does some kind of loophole where she starts burning down the city before they actually ring the bells even though everybody already knows that the bells are going to ring? But no! She sits there waiting, the bells ring, everyone but Cersei is saved, and then she BURNS DOWN THE CITY ANYWAY! I thought it was a great buildup to that moment.

    I find Arya's survival somewhat unbelievable given what she went through, and I think they could have made it more believable. She's good at getting in and out of situations but if you see dragon fire take her over and then she's still alive.. What? But the scene where she rode away on a horse was kind of cool. And the makeup job they did on her was great.

    Cleganebowl lived up to the hype. Cersei and Jaime dying together has a certain justice. And that's a pretty horrible death, right? Not really a death to sneer at. 

    My 16 year old is sitting next to me asking why she doesn’t just burn the Red Keep to the ground after she’s done with the Golden Company (point of which being in the show was what?) with Cersi in it which is who she really hates anyway? Why bother burninnthe city itself?

    I struggled to explain it. Basically: she’s “mad”
    She decided she needed fear to rule. So she's instilling fear in case people find out Jon is "the rightful heir" and think they can topple her easily. She wants to show she can win a war by herself (well, with her "child") and doesn't "really" need the North, the Dothraki, the Unsullied or any other army. If she had stood down when the bells rang, there was no guarantee she was going to sit on the Iron Throne without instilling fear in people.
    Burning the Red Keep to the ground after the city surrendered, destroying all those who wronged her with all of the innocent surviving citizens of Kings Landing bearing witness to her power and telling all of their friends and family about it for generations, would accomplish that. Burning the city to the ground can’t be defended except by her being just cray-cray.
    I'm not saying it was a great decision. But she's gained power through brutality many times. Why stop now? 
    Because she'd already won and had all the power.
    Nothing makes a statement of fear like burning down a city that is also the symbol of your hatred, loneliness, insecurities and everything bad that has happened to your family and your friends.

    She stated that no one loves her here (Westeros) and only has fear to rule with. Who is going to try to overthrow her now? Sure she could have burned down the Red Keep instead of choosing violence, but that would not have been narratively satisfying to me.
    Who's left to fear her? She murdered them all. 
    Everyone in the realm. Word of genocide travels fast.
  • gjulleen said:
    Man Jon. A lot of dead people in King’s Landing really wish you had sex with your aunt, so she would have tried ruling with love. 

    Just. Saying. 
    Hear that, ladies?  Some good d in your life is all that separates you from psychopathy.  Shaking my damn head.
    Elisa
  • Ahhhhhhhhh is all that kept going through my head. Why did she keep. Going. She could’ve made a shitty point and then gone directly to Cersei but she killed basically everyone in the city. That was a hard episode to watch. So brutal. I don’t even know how to feel.
    Elisablacksunrise7rustywright4
  • Hunkulese said:
    Hunkulese said:
    CeciliaM said:
    LordBy said:
    CeciliaM said:
    LordBy said:
    CeciliaM said:
    Ok so about the episode- I thought the tension was great during the moments when you're waiting for the bells to ring, you know the bells are going to ring because everyone says "ring the bells" and then they ring the bells, with Daenerys sitting there on Drogon the whole time, you're thinking... what if she can't hear them? What if she does some kind of loophole where she starts burning down the city before they actually ring the bells even though everybody already knows that the bells are going to ring? But no! She sits there waiting, the bells ring, everyone but Cersei is saved, and then she BURNS DOWN THE CITY ANYWAY! I thought it was a great buildup to that moment.

    I find Arya's survival somewhat unbelievable given what she went through, and I think they could have made it more believable. She's good at getting in and out of situations but if you see dragon fire take her over and then she's still alive.. What? But the scene where she rode away on a horse was kind of cool. And the makeup job they did on her was great.

    Cleganebowl lived up to the hype. Cersei and Jaime dying together has a certain justice. And that's a pretty horrible death, right? Not really a death to sneer at. 

    My 16 year old is sitting next to me asking why she doesn’t just burn the Red Keep to the ground after she’s done with the Golden Company (point of which being in the show was what?) with Cersi in it which is who she really hates anyway? Why bother burninnthe city itself?

    I struggled to explain it. Basically: she’s “mad”
    She decided she needed fear to rule. So she's instilling fear in case people find out Jon is "the rightful heir" and think they can topple her easily. She wants to show she can win a war by herself (well, with her "child") and doesn't "really" need the North, the Dothraki, the Unsullied or any other army. If she had stood down when the bells rang, there was no guarantee she was going to sit on the Iron Throne without instilling fear in people.
    Burning the Red Keep to the ground after the city surrendered, destroying all those who wronged her with all of the innocent surviving citizens of Kings Landing bearing witness to her power and telling all of their friends and family about it for generations, would accomplish that. Burning the city to the ground can’t be defended except by her being just cray-cray.
    I'm not saying it was a great decision. But she's gained power through brutality many times. Why stop now? 
    Because she'd already won and had all the power.
    Nothing makes a statement of fear like burning down a city that is also the symbol of your hatred, loneliness, insecurities and everything bad that has happened to your family and your friends.

    She stated that no one loves her here (Westeros) and only has fear to rule with. Who is going to try to overthrow her now? Sure she could have burned down the Red Keep instead of choosing violence, but that would not have been narratively satisfying to me.
    Who's left to fear her? She murdered them all. But I guess if the Long Night taught us anything, most people probably survived with minor burns and bruises.
    There were buildings still standing. There are probably survivors inside them. And she also felt the need to instill fear in the rest of her allies as well. Everyone seems to be suddenly forgetting there is someone who has a better claim to the throne than she does. She needs to make him fear her too. (I'm saying this is what she is doing, not that I agree with her actions)
  • Wonder if @Jim and Aron think declaring fan bancruptcy still helps? Not sure how many chapters of bankruptcy can cover this up from alot of levels..

    It was a beautiful episode. But wow theres a tooooon of idk..
    Elisaken hale
  • And to think Jon snow could’ve stopped this by just banging his aunt again

    CapeGabeFeezite
  • edited May 13
    I'm also confused about how people are surprised- There was a dream, or a vision or something a while back that showed a dragon shadow coming over the city (which did happen in this episode) as well as Daenerys walking into the throne room with either ash or snow falling around her. We knew it wasn't going to be snow since the Night King and his army were defeated earlier this season, so... there had to be some kind of dragon related incident. 
  • edited May 13
    People are getting real upset at this point at all the negativity.  Getting real negative toward other people because they're so upset at all the negativity.  Maybe people like being contrarian and the more the fanbase becomes divided, the more people have to dig in their heels.  It sucks that it's getting to feel personal to so many.
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    I don’t get the investment in how Cersei dies.
    CeciliaMmanhattnikrkcrawf
  • First off I'm a non book reader so all the prophecies that people are upset that never happened or went nowhere mean nothing to me. I understand that the Prince that was Promised one was in the show but prophecies are just that, predictions of the future. I enjoyed the hell out of this episode and sat in awe the entire episode.

    I knew there was the possibility of the mad queen coming to light and it couldn't have been any more glorious. I do understand the people hating on the episode because she had the war won and then decided to go all mad queen, but I truly believe her full intentions were to lay waste to the entire city as soon as she learned Jon told Sansa who told Tyrion... Her turning mad queen is not out of the blue and I'm not going to go into all the instances this was hinted at because everyone has watched the show. 

    The Cleganebowl was everything I expected and more. That was so damn entertaining. Sandor killed the 3 or 4 guards like they were nothing. The makeup done on Gregor was amazingly terrifying. I really did think that Sandor would kill him and then Arya would mercy kill Sandor but I feel that would have been too much fan service and I think the way it played out was perfect.

    When Jaime left Winterfell I knew he wasn't going with the sole purpose of killing Cersei. She's carrying his child and there's no way he goes back to Kingslanding to kill the woman he has always loved and is carrying his child. He went back to try and do anything in his power to keep her alive. His story arc is tragic and we as fans don't like it but it feels 100% true to the character. Their death together was somewhat anticlimactic but the entire episode was one giant climactic moment. There wasn't a single person in Kings Landing that I thought was 100% safe.

    My main gripe against this episode is the use of the Scorpions/Ballistas, or lack there of. We see the ships firing bolts at Drogon but I don't think we ever saw a single bolt fired from them stationed around Kings Landing. I understand that Drogon came in extremely low and took them out but regardless you can't say that other Scorpions/Ballistas nearby wouldn't be firing at him. With that said this is extremely minor and took absolutely nothing away from what was an amazing episode. 

    I forgot who said it earlier in the thread but I'm right with you in saying this is the best episode since Hardhome. It's certainly in my top 10 for the series. I really wish the guys loved it as much as some of the fans do but I also understand their criticism against it. They have every right to have their own opinion on the episode and I respect that. I listened to the instant cast and typically relisten to it at work tomorrow morning but I just can't do to it. I hope their main coverage and spoilore coverage isn't quite as much bashing on the episode but it is what it is and I will continue to support them because I respect what they do and I enjoy listening to them talk TV and movies and bidets, and eyeball licking and all the random shit they talk about.
    ken haleBenDemerolAaronrkcrawf
  • OldGriswoldOldGriswold Brooklyn
    Jon to be Ned's Dad'd in the next episode. Sansa to be Ned's brother'd.
  • LordByLordBy Utah
    Hunkulese said:
    CeciliaM said:
    LordBy said:
    CeciliaM said:
    LordBy said:
    CeciliaM said:
    Ok so about the episode- I thought the tension was great during the moments when you're waiting for the bells to ring, you know the bells are going to ring because everyone says "ring the bells" and then they ring the bells, with Daenerys sitting there on Drogon the whole time, you're thinking... what if she can't hear them? What if she does some kind of loophole where she starts burning down the city before they actually ring the bells even though everybody already knows that the bells are going to ring? But no! She sits there waiting, the bells ring, everyone but Cersei is saved, and then she BURNS DOWN THE CITY ANYWAY! I thought it was a great buildup to that moment.

    I find Arya's survival somewhat unbelievable given what she went through, and I think they could have made it more believable. She's good at getting in and out of situations but if you see dragon fire take her over and then she's still alive.. What? But the scene where she rode away on a horse was kind of cool. And the makeup job they did on her was great.

    Cleganebowl lived up to the hype. Cersei and Jaime dying together has a certain justice. And that's a pretty horrible death, right? Not really a death to sneer at. 

    My 16 year old is sitting next to me asking why she doesn’t just burn the Red Keep to the ground after she’s done with the Golden Company (point of which being in the show was what?) with Cersi in it which is who she really hates anyway? Why bother burninnthe city itself?

    I struggled to explain it. Basically: she’s “mad”
    She decided she needed fear to rule. So she's instilling fear in case people find out Jon is "the rightful heir" and think they can topple her easily. She wants to show she can win a war by herself (well, with her "child") and doesn't "really" need the North, the Dothraki, the Unsullied or any other army. If she had stood down when the bells rang, there was no guarantee she was going to sit on the Iron Throne without instilling fear in people.
    Burning the Red Keep to the ground after the city surrendered, destroying all those who wronged her with all of the innocent surviving citizens of Kings Landing bearing witness to her power and telling all of their friends and family about it for generations, would accomplish that. Burning the city to the ground can’t be defended except by her being just cray-cray.
    I'm not saying it was a great decision. But she's gained power through brutality many times. Why stop now? 
    Because she'd already won and had all the power.
    Nothing makes a statement of fear like burning down a city that is also the symbol of your hatred, loneliness, insecurities and everything bad that has happened to your family and your friends.

    She stated that no one loves her here (Westeros) and only has fear to rule with. Who is going to try to overthrow her now? Sure she could have burned down the Red Keep instead of choosing violence, but that would not have been narratively satisfying to me.
    She could have gone all “vengeance is mine” and melted the Red Keep and she would have instilled plenty of fear and, possibly, have been able to rule Westeros.

    She went full cray-cray though, committed genocide, and now Tyrion and John (including the North) and Arya and everyone with a force in Westeros (the Vale, the new lord of Storm’s End, Dorne, etc.) has a reason to kill her because they just went through this shit a generation ago with her daddy.
    jessay
  • LordByLordBy Utah
    Break the Wheel? My ass: She’s the axle.
    CeciliaMken haleBenkojiattwooddarthcaedus1138
  • We can talk about Valonqar now right?

    The valonqar was the Marshawn Lynch to this episodes Superbowl 49.   They were right there. They reunited on the neck in map room!  Come on! You just have Cersei say a shitty line and run that shit in. 

    I bought so hard on Jaime and Tyrion's last scene assuming Jaime knew what he was going to do.  The only reason Jaime needed to help him survive was because Cersei was such a shit! And Tyrion's gonna get her a boat...
    OliviaD
  • I don't get the hate for this episode from Jim and A-ron.  I feel like they've been building this character arc for Daenerys this entire time, and in fact, it's a part of a larger moral argument that the show has been trying to make.

    The show is not so much about the characters, but about the corrupting influence of power.  The stories have always been about powerful families and the crimes they must commit in order to achieve power and influence over their kingdoms.  Daenerys has always been building up to be a conqueror.  Not a liberator.  Why is that so hard to grasp?  Every slave she "liberated" was immediately enlisted into her growing and expanding military.   Every increase in her power and influence was preceded by a vengeful act.  Every territorial expansion has been the result of militaristic dominance.  The story she tells herself about freeing "future generations" from tyranny is the same propagandistic language that all imperial forces declare before committing genocidal acts of war.  Does nobody remember the pretext of the Iraq war being the constant refrain that the Iraqi people would "greet us as liberators?"  How'd that turn out?  Was there not an absurd imbalance where millions of innocent people were killed indiscriminately from an army with a superior aerial presence?

    People want to claim that this behavior is outside of the character that has been developed for Daenerys.  But is it really?  Has she not demonstrated her desire to seek power for powers sake?  After all, she is not and has not ever lead a rebellious faction seeking independence.  But on the contrary, she has been dogged in her determination to exercise complete and total rule over a vast empire which she views as her birthright.

    There's really only one way anyone can ever achieve that aim, and that is through ruthless conquest.

    The story, in my opinion, has never been about choosing which characters are best suited to "sit on the iron throne."   Instead, the story is a wholesale repudiation of the legitimacy of the iron throne to begin with.  The power of the throne will always attract the worst people, because only a tyrant would ever derive pleasure in having total rule and dominance over other people.  The story is a condemnation of the institution itself
    CeciliaMawookieedarthfodderBenweeniegirlbudesignshoos30DemerolAaronliquidmeliand 4 others.
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Based on what people are saying about the Instacast, here's  a PSA that probably should have went out before the season: 

    The valonqar prophecy was never mentioned in the show. Not even a little bit.
    awookieeBenMurderbearchriskpodcartfanRoseGeneticBlueprintrkcrawf
  • I thought it was amazing TV, loved it except for Eron m, hate that idiot
  • Yeah I mean, were we expecting a happy ending from Game of Thrones? 
  • edited May 13
    Usually I agree with Aron and Jim's, but I feel like they missed the whole point of Dany's arc.  And their criticism seems somewhat odd for the two who are usually so measured in their takes.

    The main complaint I heard on the instacast is why Dany went full Mad Queen after the bells and Cersei surrendered.   I thought this was clear.  The main reason (as foreshadowed all season and early this episode) was this:  she came to realize that even if she wins the battle and accepts their surrender, and takes over Kings Landing, she would never be allowed to rule, will never win over the people, or be the loved ruler who breaks the wheel.  Everyone will betray her.   They had already started.  The lords of the 7 kindgoms will never let her be the just ruler playing it "their way", because she is not one of them. Just like the wise masters.

    She realized that she will always be an outsider, and she sacrificed and lost everything--including everyone she loved, 2 of her children, even lost half her army trying to save the people of westeros from the night king, and they still threw her away and betrayed her, and will betray her again for Jon or anyone else.   The only way to take "what is hers" was through fire and blood and that meant a demonstration of fear.  She didn't go instant "crazy", she did what she has always done since Astapor, burn it all down and demonstrate her right to rule with fire.  She had to show rest of Westeros what fear looked like.  That seems pretty consistent in character for me.

       


    awookieedarthfodderken haleMurderbearpodcartfandragonshoos30DemerolAaronGeneticBlueprintand 3 others.
  • I don't know how I feel yet. I don't hate it - I have been watching with a form of "fan bankruptcy" since season 5.   I think it is all ok honestly as far as overall storyline.   It is just the details that suck.  It is too rushed and getting from point A to B just doesn't make sense in the show anymore.  

     I believe Dany is capable of being mad, yet I find this episode to be a head-scratcher.   She had the throne with relatively few deaths! And then she goes after the innocents in the city and the troops that surrendered?  Because Cersei killed Missandei?  Because Jon won't eff her anymore?  We have seen this character over 8 seasons channeling her energy into helping the common people out.  And Dany is pretty much invincible now with her dragon, right?  How can the Starks and Tyrion take her out now and not totally ruin fan believability even more?  Will ghost-euron come back and shoot the last dragon down?  I guess Arya is still alive with her assassin skills.  Or maybe sane-Dany will come back for a bit and she will kill herself out of shame or something.  

    Well I started rewatching season one this week, and I saw that Jorah says the Dothraki believe the world ends with a type of white grass that kills everything as it grows (white-walker grass?).  I hope the show ends with a site of zombie-grass growing.  Maybe azor-ahai is actually a valerian-steel lawnmower?  I realize I sound negative and sarcastic.  I guess I am but also I really don't have that high of expectations so I am mostly OK with the show going the way it has.  It is just a tv show after all and we got 4 amazing seasons out of it and the remaining 4 had some pretty good moments.  I hope the ending is ok.  I am guessing we won't get a lot of closure of side plots like what is going on in Essos and Bronn and Brienne and Sam and Bran and all that stuff.  We will see.  





    ken haleElisa
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