805 - The Bells

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  • Dany has always had an issue with impulse control.I see a lot of people saying, “why would she burn the city? She already won.” Earlier in this same episode she told Jon that she had experienced no love at all since she arrived in Westeros and then basically gets friend zoned by one of the few people who does love her. So she literally said, “Fear,then” and “mercy will not be our weakness anymore.” All that said, in her victory moment staring at the red keep and hearing the bells ringing for “mercy” she’s probably re-playing all the shit she’s been through since arriving in Westeros. All the times she chose “mercy” and lost her own people. And in this moment she must decide again between mercy or fear and obviously she decides fear. She has always been entitled and in her mind probably already sees anyone who stayed loyal to Cersei by even staying in King’s Landing, an enemy. And what does she doe to enemies? Dracarys
    Your making this into a black or white issue. She doesn't need to kill an entire city (including her army) to instill fear into her enemies. She could have done a hundred other things that were a little less extreme. She could have flown up to the Red Keep and roasted Cersei and all the people inside there. She could have executed everyone who stood against her after the battle. There are plenty of ways she could inspired fear without going bat shit crazy villian. Why did she go crazy? Cause the show runners need her too, but for me they didn't do enough to earn it.

    The same way I didn't think Sansa withholding information from Jon in Battle of the Bastards was earned. There are plenty of other examples of them needing the plot to go in a certain direction but not making it believable. 
    darthcaedus1138gjames80
  • I have just listened to the instant take, and I’m resisting the urge to be very mean to the guys.

    They both seem to have been so sold on Dany being some sort of saviour that when it turned out that she is exactly who people kept saying she was they are somehow surprised,

    She literally burnt two people two people who refused to bend the knee. With a dragon! At what point during this did she come across as someone who was going to form a constitutional monarchy?

    She executed Varys because she knew that as soon he knew the truth about Jon, that was game over. She knew he told people. Her last hope was Jon marrying her, which he obviously isn’t willing to do. So she killed Varys to send a message, and burnt King’s Landing to show where the power really is, regardless of Jon’s claim. I wouldn’t be awfully surprised to see that Bran is in the background somewhere doing something.

    Jaime slept with Brienne, and in doing so he realised who he truly is. He could only love Cersei, and try as he did to be honourable (something which he occasionally struggled with) he accepts that he couldn’t escape her. He basically said this in his goodbye speech to Brienne.

    Jaime and Cersei had a fitting death. They were trapped between two types of death, and no other options. They even had Rains of Castermere playing, as their halls crashed down around them. Thematically it worked. As for the prophecy, they have shown several times that prophecy isn’t exactly an exact science. And if you wanted to stretch it, you could say that the baby, the younger brother given to her by her younger brother, is why she made the choices she did, which ultimately led to her death. Not everything is so literal.

    Tyrion learned the ultimate price of ignoring signs because he is so smart he could never be wrong. He has been caught by this several times during the show.

    Clegane Bowl was always about revenge. It was never about the rest of it. And ultimately he took his brother in to the fire, to complete the circle that started when his brother burnt him as a child.

    Arya - I suppose this is probably my one gripe. I buy the whole story that watching Sandor go to his certain death convincing her that there is more to life than revenge. Her saying not today to the god of death is pointless unless she lives an actual life. But that stupid horse. Unless it’s Bran there’s no way that horse is that chill.

    Now the execution isn’t perfect, and I’m not attempting to defend the show in its entirety. But the negativity I see is either because the story hasn’t worked out the way people predicted/wanted (it’s a tragedy, not a fairytale) or because they’ve imposed some feminist hero status on Dany, which was always nonsense.
    majjam0770jbpitt13MurderbearFalconavcplgjames80BenNimeriaLurksalexander.klassen
  • hisdudeness915hisdudeness915 Atlanta, Ga
    edited May 13
    Giovanni said:
    Dany has always had an issue with impulse control.I see a lot of people saying, “why would she burn the city? She already won.” Earlier in this same episode she told Jon that she had experienced no love at all since she arrived in Westeros and then basically gets friend zoned by one of the few people who does love her. So she literally said, “Fear,then” and “mercy will not be our weakness anymore.” All that said, in her victory moment staring at the red keep and hearing the bells ringing for “mercy” she’s probably re-playing all the shit she’s been through since arriving in Westeros. All the times she chose “mercy” and lost her own people. And in this moment she must decide again between mercy or fear and obviously she decides fear. She has always been entitled and in her mind probably already sees anyone who stayed loyal to Cersei by even staying in King’s Landing, an enemy. And what does she doe to enemies? Dracarys
    Your making this into a black or white issue. She doesn't need to kill an entire city (including her army) to instill fear into her enemies. She could have done a hundred other things that were a little less extreme. She could have flown up to the Red Keep and roasted Cersei and all the people inside there. She could have executed everyone who stood against her after the battle. There are plenty of ways she could inspired fear without going bat shit crazy villian. Why did she go crazy? Cause the show runners need her too, but for me they didn't do enough to earn it.

    The same way I didn't think Sansa withholding information from Jon in Battle of the Bastards was earned. There are plenty of other examples of them needing the plot to go in a certain direction but not making it believable. 
    But now you’re making into a “she could’ve done this or that”. She has a history of impulse control and actually going extreme with those impulses and she made a bad impulsive decision. It’s no different than arguing a refs bad call during a sports game. Does this ref have a history of making poor calls? Yes, but that doesn’t stop him from making them again in the future 
  • LukeLuke Central Illinois
    The only consolation to all this is at least Disney has said after episode IX they are putting Star Wars on ice, at least in the theaters, for awhile.  

    So likely that trilogies that have been given to the DD's and Rain Johnson are never going to get made.  
    NimeriaLurks
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    hisdudeness915 said:Now, you’re making into a “she could’ve done this or that”. She has a history of impulse control, and she made a bad impulsive decision. It’s no different than arguing a refs bad call during a sports game. Does this ref have a history of making poor calls? Yes, but that doesn’t stop him from making them again in the future 

    I think you're underselling this a lot. I think it's true the burning of people has always been a problem and she's too been willing to go there, but it's a big step to go from killing specific people of varying guilt to roasting thousands of people indiscriminately. It's a legit POV to feel that it wasn't earned.

    Luke said:
    The only consolation to all this is at least Disney has said after episode IX they are putting Star Wars on ice, at least in the theaters, for awhile.  

    So likely that trilogies that have been given to the DD's and Rain Johnson are never going to get made.  
    They went back on that pretty quick. New trilogy was announced for 2021, and I assume it's one of theirs. 
    rustywright4blacksunrise7
  • hisdudeness915hisdudeness915 Atlanta, Ga
    edited May 13
    chrisk said:
    hisdudeness915 said:Now, you’re making into a “she could’ve done this or that”. She has a history of impulse control, and she made a bad impulsive decision. It’s no different than arguing a refs bad call during a sports game. Does this ref have a history of making poor calls? Yes, but that doesn’t stop him from making them again in the future 

    I think you're underselling this a lot. I think it's true the burning of people has always been a problem and she's too been willing to go there, but it's a big step to go from killing specific people of varying guilt to roasting thousands of people indiscriminately. It's a legit POV to feel that it wasn't earned.

    That’s the thing, though. They ARE guilty in her eyes. Guilty of not immediately abandoning Cersei and worshipping her(Dany) as their new Queen, Lord, and Savior of the Seven Kingdoms
    ken hale
  • I really liked the scene parallels between the Hound and Arya. Thematically it makes sense. The Hound has always had the purpose of revenge against 1 person - his brother. Arya has had the purpose of revenge against almost everyone. By portraying each character simultaneously being beaten by the target of their vengeance (The Mountain/ The World), it shows the futility of Arya's list. Sandor represents Arya's future should she persist while we've been seeing cracks in Arya all season in regards to regaining her humanity (with Jon, Gendry, Sansa). To Arya, the only person who understands where she's coming from is the Hound. For him to address this with her directly and point her on a new path is both poignant and satisfying.
    jbpitt13Falcon
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited May 13
    Dany stans: "YAAAAAAS QUE...OH-MY-GOD"



    hisdudeness915MurderbeargguenotFlukesUnderwoodFalconMarciawookieegjames80CeciliaMand 2 others.
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    People saying this "ruined the show" feels like "literally unplayable" to me. I mean you got hours of enjoyment out of this thing. What's the batting average on show endings? 

    The quality definitely dropped after season 4 (also true of the books after the red wedding IMO), but I feel like people ought to have recalibrated their expectations after that. Nothing this season has been as bad as Dorne and the Sand Snakes.
    hisdudeness915MurderbearFlukesFalcongjames80rkcrawf
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Controversial statement: Drogon is still a good little boi and I hope he gets to live out his days in old Valyria after Dany gets got. Laying lots of eggs.
    hisdudeness915majjam0770MurderbearbudesignsAww_PHuuCkbbordawookiee
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Luke said:
    The only consolation to all this is at least Disney has said after episode IX they are putting Star Wars on ice, at least in the theaters, for awhile.  

    So likely that trilogies that have been given to the DD's and Rain Johnson are never going to get made.  

    If KK is smart (questionable) she'll back away from D&D after this. This is literally the issue they're trying to fix.
  • I think this show would have benefited from last season not being short. Instead it should have ended with the battle of winterfell. Then the new season being six episodes of character development into the battle at kings landing. The events that happened truly aren't that hard to believe. They're just harder to believe because of the pace.
    ken halerkcrawfDaveyMac
  • Alkaid13Alkaid13 Georgia
    Official Moderation Statement:

    Ok, let’s all take a chill pill for a hot sec shall we?

    I understand that different people think this was either the best episode in a long time, or the worst episode of the series. This is ultimately a piece of entertainment media and whether it’s good or not isn’t really a life or death scenario. 

    Please act respectfully towards people who might disagree with your opinion on the episodes. I don’t want to call people out but, for example, @CeciliaM  please don’t assume that Jim and Aron are arrogant know nothings just because they disagree with you on the episode, based on the general reactions from the net, a lot of people didn’t like it, their opinions are as equally valid as yours. Also @OldGriswold don’t tell forum members to fuck off just because you feel like they’re being unfair to other people, if you have a legitimate complaint about the comments expressed by members please DM one of the mods and we’ll look into it, I don’t need people piling on to each other here. 

    If you have strong feelings about this episode in particular or the series in general that’s cool, but please don’t insult other fans just because they disagree with your opinions. 
    chriskkuman07NimeriaLurksrustywright4OldGriswoldBloodyTacodarthcaedus1138bbordawookieerkcrawf
  • edited May 13
    Giovanni said:
    Dany has always had an issue with impulse control.I see a lot of people saying, “why would she burn the city? She already won.” Earlier in this same episode she told Jon that she had experienced no love at all since she arrived in Westeros and then basically gets friend zoned by one of the few people who does love her. So she literally said, “Fear,then” and “mercy will not be our weakness anymore.” All that said, in her victory moment staring at the red keep and hearing the bells ringing for “mercy” she’s probably re-playing all the shit she’s been through since arriving in Westeros. All the times she chose “mercy” and lost her own people. And in this moment she must decide again between mercy or fear and obviously she decides fear. She has always been entitled and in her mind probably already sees anyone who stayed loyal to Cersei by even staying in King’s Landing, an enemy. And what does she doe to enemies? Dracarys
    Your making this into a black or white issue. She doesn't need to kill an entire city (including her army) to instill fear into her enemies. She could have done a hundred other things that were a little less extreme. She could have flown up to the Red Keep and roasted Cersei and all the people inside there. She could have executed everyone who stood against her after the battle. There are plenty of ways she could inspired fear without going bat shit crazy villian. Why did she go crazy? Cause the show runners need her too, but for me they didn't do enough to earn it.

    The same way I didn't think Sansa withholding information from Jon in Battle of the Bastards was earned. There are plenty of other examples of them eneeding the plot to go in a certain direction but not making it believable. 
    But now you’re making into a “she could’ve done this or that”. She has a history of impulse control and actually going extreme with those impulses and she made a bad impulsive decision. It’s no different than arguing a refs bad call during a sports game. Does this ref have a history of making poor calls? Yes, but that doesn’t stop him from making them again in the future 
    I dare you to give one example of an impulsive decision she made that even comes close to murdering a million people for no practical reason. She knew her own soldiers were fighting down there, when has she ever indiscriminately killed those loyal to her?

     Maybe it worked for you, but it didn't for me and plenty others.
    majjam0770rustywright4BloodyTacoblacksunrise7
  • edited May 13
    jbpitt13 said:
    I think this show would have benefited from last season not being short. Instead it should have ended with the battle of winterfell. Then the new season being six episodes of character development into the battle at kings landing. The events that happened truly aren't that hard to believe. They're just harder to believe because of the pace.
    Well said. That's my biggest gripe, this season and last really needed 10 episodes to sell what they showed. 
    tonyp1222rkcrawf
  • Also I love to picture the sand snakes mother being still alive and imprisoned in the cells of King's landing, wondering what the fuck is going on above her
    telephoneofmadnessNimeriaLurksgjames80
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    One thing I'll add is that we basically did this to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. She used her nukes.
    rkcrawf
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    edited May 14
    Edit - double post. 
  • chriskchrisk Indianapolis
    jbpitt13 said:
    Also I love to picture the sand snakes mother being still alive and imprisoned in the cells of King's landing, wondering what the fuck is going on above her
    LOL. Ellaria "Huell" Sand.
    gjames80
  • walktheskywalkthesky New York
    ken hale said:
    Is this really about fans not getting what they were expecting ?  Are some of them literally offended because they guessed wrong? I could give a shit.  I theorized myself, but I never married to a particular plot notion because in the end, you will be disappointed. 
    No. That’s not what’s happening here, that’s just what some viewers who have dug in to the “everything is fine” position keep saying to try and discredit all of the legitimate criticism. 
    Well as they say, agree to disagree? Definitely not perfect, but this show stands on a whole other level.  I don’t think there is a drive to discredit legitimate criticism, not by me.  But I think there’s is an expected divide amongst the community.  And I do think that a lot of those that are fundamentally trashing the ep and series now, are upset from lost expectations. 
    ken hale
  • CeciliaM said:

    I find Arya's survival somewhat unbelievable given what she went through, and I think they could have made it more believable. She's good at getting in and out of situations but if you see dragon fire take her over and then she's still alive.. What? But the scene where she rode away on a horse was kind of cool. And the makeup job they did on her was great.

    You are making the assumption she is alive. The horse scene looked almost more like a dream. I'd give it at least a coin flip that Arya is dead.
    CeciliaM
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    Giovanni said:
    Giovanni said:
    Dany has always had an issue with impulse control.I see a lot of people saying, “why would she burn the city? She already won.” Earlier in this same episode she told Jon that she had experienced no love at all since she arrived in Westeros and then basically gets friend zoned by one of the few people who does love her. So she literally said, “Fear,then” and “mercy will not be our weakness anymore.” All that said, in her victory moment staring at the red keep and hearing the bells ringing for “mercy” she’s probably re-playing all the shit she’s been through since arriving in Westeros. All the times she chose “mercy” and lost her own people. And in this moment she must decide again between mercy or fear and obviously she decides fear. She has always been entitled and in her mind probably already sees anyone who stayed loyal to Cersei by even staying in King’s Landing, an enemy. And what does she doe to enemies? Dracarys
    Your making this into a black or white issue. She doesn't need to kill an entire city (including her army) to instill fear into her enemies. She could have done a hundred other things that were a little less extreme. She could have flown up to the Red Keep and roasted Cersei and all the people inside there. She could have executed everyone who stood against her after the battle. There are plenty of ways she could inspired fear without going bat shit crazy villian. Why did she go crazy? Cause the show runners need her too, but for me they didn't do enough to earn it.

    The same way I didn't think Sansa withholding information from Jon in Battle of the Bastards was earned. There are plenty of other examples of them eneeding the plot to go in a certain direction but not making it believable. 
    But now you’re making into a “she could’ve done this or that”. She has a history of impulse control and actually going extreme with those impulses and she made a bad impulsive decision. It’s no different than arguing a refs bad call during a sports game. Does this ref have a history of making poor calls? Yes, but that doesn’t stop him from making them again in the future 
    I dare you to give one example of an impulsive decision she made that even comes close to murdering a million people for no practical reason. She knew her own soldiers were fighting down there, when has she ever indiscriminately killed those loyal to her?

     Maybe it worked for you, but it didn't for me and plenty others.
    How could anyone possibly give you that specific of an example before she has done it? That's an impossible task in bot the real world and for writers. There's rarely an example of a person committing mass genocide before they commit mass genocide for the first time.

    She burned a presumably innocent man alive and fed him to her dragons. All so that she could make Hizdar zo Loraq confess for something that he also was not involved with. There are other examples although not nearly as blatantly horrific as that.

    And why are we supposed to think that she burned her own soldiers alive in those scenes? You are assuming that's what happened because her rampage appeared random throughout the city, but as far as I can recall, we did not get that on the screen. If that is what they wanted you to believe she did, then we would have gotten a scene of Unsullied/Northerners being burned by Drogons fire. We didn't. We only got scenes of the soldiers going on their own rampage through the city, killing (and raping) unarmed commoners.
  • Based on some of the comments here, and on Facebook, I'm going to skip the instant take.  J&A are certainly not alone in hating the episode but for me, there's not a lot of value in hearing an hour of hate on the episode.  I'll give the Tuesday podcast a try to see if they've been able tone it down and present it in a way that works for me.  If not, that's fine.

    I usually watch alone, but I watched with a friend who has been down on the season so far.  I feel like I felt ill and like I didn't like the episode when it ended and from talking with her, I thought it was because I had issues with the writing and the story.  But after thinking about it since then, I think my feeling of "not liking" the episode is because I don't like it that we have a homicidal mad queen on our hands now.  I think 100% it tracks throughout the seasons and I wanted it to not be true, and for her to be good and just, but this has been brewing for a long time.  I don't like that this is what happened, but I haven't liked a lot of things in this show.  

    I also don't like that Jaime ran back to Cersei but I think it also makes sense if you look at him as an addict that failed in his recovery.  Sometimes message up, terrible people do things that make them seem redeemed.  But then they slip up and go back to being awful.  I thought he was a good guy now.  But he's not. 

    Finally, I think she didn't have to burn up all of King's Landing.  But she snapped, and snapping is not something that happens in a logical way.


    Aaron
  • So this whole TV series was about Dany coming back to finish what her daddy started? 
    I liked the caches of wildfire going up. It shows how widely dispersed that stuff was throughout the city by the Mad King. It was certainly a nod to Dany finishing the "burn them all" thought. 
    CeciliaMrkcrawfmanhattnik
  • mjmullady said:

    I hate if the larger fan negativity is driving people from the show and the podcast.
    That's the thing. Most fans (not podcasters or writers) aren't being negative. The majority of average viewers I've seen enjoyed the episode.

    Yet I'm sure on the podcast Tuesday, after days of being in the most negative fan hole in the world (reddit), A.Ron will pronounce the people who enjoyed the episode as being in the minority, which is not reality.
    Seriously? Listen, I’m glad you like it, but if you have to avoid all your favorite podcasts, critics, reddit (and I’ll throw twitter in there, too), it might be time to acknowledge that “most” fans aren’t really feeling it anymore. 

    And don’t insult people by suggesting they’re unable to form their own opinions. 
    Giovanni
  • MurderbearMurderbear Cold Spring, Ky
    edited May 13
    Dany said that mercy was no longer going to be her weakness. It was going to be her strength, but for future generations. She totally laid it out right there for us that she was going to cleanse this city with fire and build a new one on top of the old one's ashes. She knows that she wasn't going to keep the throne any other way. Yes, she could have stopped when the bells rung but then she knows that Jon Snow would be the thing that everyone would want, not her. Even after she came in and saved the day with her dragon yet again, she is still going to have to worry about backstabbing and betrayals and letting Drogon destroy it all was her best chance in instilling all the fear she needed to hold the throne.
    Flukeshisdudeness915
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited May 13
    ken hale said:
    mjmullady said:

    I hate if the larger fan negativity is driving people from the show and the podcast.
    That's the thing. Most fans (not podcasters or writers) aren't being negative. The majority of average viewers I've seen enjoyed the episode.

    Yet I'm sure on the podcast Tuesday, after days of being in the most negative fan hole in the world (reddit), A.Ron will pronounce the people who enjoyed the episode as being in the minority, which is not reality.
    Seriously? Listen, I’m glad you like it, but if you have to avoid all your favorite podcasts, critics, reddit (and I’ll throw twitter in there, too), it might be time to acknowledge that “most” fans aren’t really feeling it anymore. 

    And don’t insult people by suggesting they’re unable to form their own opinions. 
    Most fans/viewers aren't podcasters or TV critics, nor are they on those platforms discussing GOT.  They just aren't. Average fans aren't even the ones who click on fan polls to rate episodes.

    And I'm not stating that someone can't formulate their own opinion, but everyone is influenced to some degree by the environments they dwell in, although my post was specifically about the idea that their negative opinion is the majority, not his opinion on the episode itself.
    FalconawookieeBenCeciliaMrkcrawf
  • edited May 13
    From what I saw on the the screen the Lannisters, the iron fleet and the golden company lost less than half their forces, they should be able to continue the fight next episode.
    Jamie can swim in armor, so why should they be dead? Euron could be alive, too. If he wore his valyrian steel armor.

    MurderbearGiovanniken halerkcrawf
  • The problem I have with Dany's turn to Mad Queen, is that the indiscriminate killing of innocent people IS out of character for her.  While I will grant you she does have some Mad Queen tendencies, the violence in Astrapur, Yunki, Mereen, and even with the Tarlys, has always seemed earned in the moment.

    To say this action is totally in keeping with Dany’s character denies the other side of Dany that seems genuinely empathetic. She frees all the Unsullied, she buries all the crucified slaves on the road to Mereen, and she locks up 2 of her dragons for 2 seasons because of the death of one innocent child.  These scenes are powerful examples of someone that has genuine love and empathy for the less fortunate. 

    The turn from morally torn but ruthless killer of her enemies, to indiscriminate genocidal maniac on a level that is far worse than Cersei, just doesn’t track to me. 
    Giovanniken haledarthcaedus1138blacksunrise7rkcrawf
  • tonyp1222 said:
    I saw a suggestion on Reddit that would've been awesome.

    What if D&D misinterpreted GRRM's notes. What if Dany, at the moment of surrender, guns it for the Red Keep and lights it up, but in doing so triggers all of the wildfire under the city setup by her father -- inadvertantly "burning them all."

    If she only went for the Red Keep out of vengeance on Cersei and accidentally wiped the city with the cache of her father’s wild fire, accidentally becoming The Mad Queen in the eyes of the realm.... It also would've given reason to why we saw it here in the first place. As of now, it's sort of random.

    FUUUUUUCK THAT WOULD’VE BEEN SO MUCH BETTER! 
    tonyp1222 said:
    I saw a suggestion on Reddit that would've been awesome.

    What if D&D misinterpreted GRRM's notes. What if Dany, at the moment of surrender, guns it for the Red Keep and lights it up, but in doing so triggers all of the wildfire under the city setup by her father -- inadvertantly "burning them all."

    If she only went for the Red Keep out of vengeance on Cersei and accidentally wiped the city with the cache of her father’s wild fire, accidentally becoming The Mad Queen in the eyes of the realm.... It also would've given reason to why we saw it here in the first place. As of now, it's sort of random.

    FUUUUUUCK THAT WOULD’VE BEEN SO MUCH BETTER! 
    I was going to suggest this! Guess what that would be FUCKING BITTERSWEET! Dany finally gets what she’s been after but her vengeance, dragon and her father fuck it up for her. Would have made the episode so much better and D&D look somewhat competent.

    I was pissed after eps 3 and 4, now I’m just whatever. One more ep to be done with this story. I wish this last season was written better, the show and fans deserve better. And there’s such a fine line on a terribly written show and one that makes sense and works. It’s fine Dany went mad, I guess her arc has been leading that way but what made her snap after she won the war?! Easy way to fix that is have her mad from the get go of the episode, have her hit some of the innocents while she was taking out the scorpions and army. The Dany that the show has portrayed is a breaker of chains, a freer of the oppressed. WTF is she laying waste to all the civilians for? It’s like she needed to get her kill count up in a video game or something. It would have made more sense to find out that she had been hypnotized to go crazy when bells go off. 


    ken haletonyp1222Anominal
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