For All the *Grumpy Haters*

I'm listening to the "Instant Take" for S8E5 right now and I can't take it, because Aron and Jim are disappointed that a ton of characters didn't fulfill the character arcs that they were expecting.  Which is EXACTLY what Game of Thrones has always been about!!!  This goes all the way back to the beginning of the books/shows when characters like Ned/Robb Stark had a clear arc, a clear trajectory and purpose and then got SLAUGHTERED.  Jaime was one of the best sworsdmen in Westeros and know he's clanking around with a tin hand.  Brann is given the knowledge of all mankind and yet it gives him the power to change nothing!  Arya becomes a great assassin, and she can't kill the person most deserving of a good knife to the throat (Cersei) because her own side is busy fire-bombing King's Landing!  This entire series of books is about thwarting and upending predictable character arcs.  We all wanted to see Jon and Daenerys on the Iron Throne, but the Game of Thrones ending, that does justice to the entire series, is the gut-wrenching, frustrating, red-wedding-esque moment when Dany snaps, burns the city, kills enemies, civilians, and friendlies alike, and drags an entirely new moral dilemma into the mix where suddenly the story is turned upside down, and our heroes are our worst nightmares.  I agree that the Double D's have been driving us through this part of the story like an old minivan going off road through the rain forest, and that there are a ton of loose ends.  But if this part of the story holds true to GRRM's bullet points, I wouldn't be surprised at all.  Once again, the 'hero' that we thought was going to be the good guy, the hero, has a flaw that isn't just overcome with some montages and a character arc; its a flaw that cripples and debilitates their ability to think clearly, to fulfill their goals, and it turns them into the exact evil which they've been fighting against.

All of this is to say that the disappointment that we all feel, the anger at Dany's actions, the disbelief when the northmen began to cut down the surrendered Lannister soldiers, the 100th time that Tyrion's been wrong about something because he's absolutely blinded by the belief that he can salvage the scraps of his family from certain death:  these are all exactly what we should be feeling, and what Game of Thrones is all about.  Gut punches that are so shocking, you can't help but come back for more.  

I'm not gonna defend the half-assed way that all these events unfolded in the medium of film, but the bullet points:  I think they're rock solid.

-A fan of episode 5

CeciliaMawookieetpelzymajjam0770Murderbearb.larevFalconBenhisdudeness915rkcrawfand 13 others.
«13

Comments

  • I agree 100%. Dany went truly and fully mad, just like her father. We saw plenty of pretext for that in the previous episode/throughout the series.
    awookieeethan.d.coletpelzymajjam0770FalconrhcoopbrowniefiveFreddymft9186ctrlaltdeland 2 others.
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited May 13
    I'm disappointed in their, umm, "extreme" disappointment for what i thought was incredible and emotional,  and their disregard for what I thought was a logical conclusion for these characters.

    But they are entitled to their opinions. People cant help how they feel.
    awookieeethan.d.coletpelzymajjam0770BenrhcoopSanguinePenguinFlukesKS123Freddyand 4 others.


  • oh wait
    MurderbearrkcrawfGraffin_Dirtyblood
  • I think you fundamentally misunderstand what a lot of people liked about the books and early series. Ned dying, Robb dying, etc. all subvert fantasy expectations by following the actual logic of the world. It was never subverting expectations for subverting expectations. It's that the righteous moral guy will be bad at politics, that following your heart in a medieval world means betraying alliances.

    This one subverts expectations by going against the logic of the world. We expected Dany to be merciful because as recent as 8.02 she was willing to sacrifice herself for the good of the realm. We expect Jamie to be over Cersei because he was ok with staying in Winterfell when she had 2 dragons and a bigger army, and then went south when it was a close fight.

    It's one thing to subvert fantasy expectations by introducing real world logic. It's another to subvert real world logic by using fantasy logic.
    bbordethan.d.coleGredalBeeBloodyTacomajjam0770DJ_150rustywright4NoelGiovannikojiattwoodand 1 other.
  • i don't think most people are disappointed in the bullet points...we're disappointed that the double D's didn't do enough to connect the bullet points. For example, I have no problem with Dany becoming the mad queen...but based on everything we've seen, is it really believable that she just snapped when King's Landing was surrendering? Why didn't she just go torch the Red Keep? 

    There are crucial steps of character developers and plot development that just don't exist. That's why people think it's stuipid. 

    Actually, there's a second reason too which A. Ron loves to point out. The Double D's CONSTANTLY put characters in situations where one thing should obviously happen, but it doesn't because reasons. For example, Arya gets the shit stabbed out of her by the Waif and then jumps in a dirty river. Some how, she doesn't die. Which makes no sense given what happened. It's not a plot problem that she lives...but WHY THE FUCK did they decide, let's put her in a situation where she should be dead, but doesn't actually die. Same thing happened with Brienne, Grey Worm and Jamie during the battle of winterfell. 

    So that's why people like me are disappointed. The bullet points are fine, the actual images on screen are amazing, but the rest is totally unearned bullshit. 

    CapeGabeBloodyTacoken halemajjam0770b.larevDJ_150Bhorten1Ashleyrustywright4Noeland 4 others.
  • Ned was handcuffed by his honor and was bad at the game, only realizing it too late
    Robb was young and foolish and ignored the politics of his marriage alliance.
    These were their character arcs, not subversions.
    BloodyTacoMajorMalfunctionrustywright4GiovanniCretanBull
  • I think you fundamentally misunderstand what a lot of people liked about the books and early series. Ned dying, Robb dying, etc. all subvert fantasy expectations by following the actual logic of the world. It was never subverting expectations for subverting expectations. It's that the righteous moral guy will be bad at politics, that following your heart in a medieval world means betraying alliances.

    This one subverts expectations by going against the logic of the world. We expected Dany to be merciful because as recent as 8.02 she was willing to sacrifice herself for the good of the realm. We expect Jamie to be over Cersei because he was ok with staying in Winterfell when she had 2 dragons and a bigger army, and then went south when it was a close fight.

    It's one thing to subvert fantasy expectations by introducing real world logic. It's another to subvert real world logic by using fantasy logic.
    I understand what you're saying and you make a good point, but at the end of the day I think that Daenerys actions fall right in line with worldly expectations:  a leader with absolute power, who is faced with crisis after crisis, betrayal after betrayal, and loses trust in all of her advisors and the people close to her, eventually goes mad.  It reminds me of rulers like Joseph Stalin, who's reign became more and more paranoid as time passed and as betrayals and enemies stacked up around him.  Danaerys became exactly what she was meant to be all along:  a true Targaryen
    majjam0770rhcoopchrisk
  • I think you fundamentally misunderstand what a lot of people liked about the books and early series. Ned dying, Robb dying, etc. all subvert fantasy expectations by following the actual logic of the world. It was never subverting expectations for subverting expectations. It's that the righteous moral guy will be bad at politics, that following your heart in a medieval world means betraying alliances.

    This one subverts expectations by going against the logic of the world. We expected Dany to be merciful because as recent as 8.02 she was willing to sacrifice herself for the good of the realm. We expect Jamie to be over Cersei because he was ok with staying in Winterfell when she had 2 dragons and a bigger army, and then went south when it was a close fight.

    It's one thing to subvert fantasy expectations by introducing real world logic. It's another to subvert real world logic by using fantasy logic.
    I understand what you're saying and you make a good point, but at the end of the day I think that Daenerys actions fall right in line with worldly expectations:  a leader with absolute power, who is faced with crisis after crisis, betrayal after betrayal, and loses trust in all of her advisors and the people close to her, eventually goes mad.  It reminds me of rulers like Joseph Stalin, who's reign became more and more paranoid as time passed and as betrayals and enemies stacked up around him.  Danaerys became exactly what she was meant to be all along:  a true Targaryen
    But she had just won...why is that the moment she snaps??? That doesn't fall within expectations. 
    majjam0770rustywright4CretanBull
  • mtron32mtron32 San Diego
    bbord said:
    i don't think most people are disappointed in the bullet points...we're disappointed that the double D's didn't do enough to connect the bullet points. For example, I have no problem with Dany becoming the mad queen...but based on everything we've seen, is it really believable that she just snapped when King's Landing was surrendering? Why didn't she just go torch the Red Keep? 

    There are crucial steps of character developers and plot development that just don't exist. That's why people think it's stuipid. 

    Actually, there's a second reason too which A. Ron loves to point out. The Double D's CONSTANTLY put characters in situations where one thing should obviously happen, but it doesn't because reasons. For example, Arya gets the shit stabbed out of her by the Waif and then jumps in a dirty river. Some how, she doesn't die. Which makes no sense given what happened. It's not a plot problem that she lives...but WHY THE FUCK did they decide, let's put her in a situation where she should be dead, but doesn't actually die. Same thing happened with Brienne, Grey Worm and Jamie during the battle of winterfell. 

    So that's why people like me are disappointed. The bullet points are fine, the actual images on screen are amazing, but the rest is totally unearned bullshit. 

    Exactly, the show has been pretty dumb for a while now, and while I did enjoy the episode, that doesn't save it from have WAY too many convenient WTF moments peppered throughout.  They needed one more episode at least to set this up better.
    bbordrustywright4
  • bbord said:
    i don't think most people are disappointed in the bullet points...we're disappointed that the double D's didn't do enough to connect the bullet points. For example, I have no problem with Dany becoming the mad queen...but based on everything we've seen, is it really believable that she just snapped when King's Landing was surrendering? Why didn't she just go torch the Red Keep? 

    There are crucial steps of character developers and plot development that just don't exist. That's why people think it's stuipid. 

    Actually, there's a second reason too which A. Ron loves to point out. The Double D's CONSTANTLY put characters in situations where one thing should obviously happen, but it doesn't because reasons. For example, Arya gets the shit stabbed out of her by the Waif and then jumps in a dirty river. Some how, she doesn't die. Which makes no sense given what happened. It's not a plot problem that she lives...but WHY THE FUCK did they decide, let's put her in a situation where she should be dead, but doesn't actually die. Same thing happened with Brienne, Grey Worm and Jamie during the battle of winterfell. 

    So that's why people like me are disappointed. The bullet points are fine, the actual images on screen are amazing, but the rest is totally unearned bullshit. 

    Yeah I totally agree, the connections bewteen a lot of the bullets are weak at best.  My argument is that the bullet points themselves I think are fascinating and shocking yet satisfying in a sad way, and I thought that Aron and Jim were tearing the whole thing apart
    majjam0770Anominal
  • bbord said:
    i don't think most people are disappointed in the bullet points...we're disappointed that the double D's didn't do enough to connect the bullet points. For example, I have no problem with Dany becoming the mad queen...but based on everything we've seen, is it really believable that she just snapped when King's Landing was surrendering? Why didn't she just go torch the Red Keep? 

    There are crucial steps of character developers and plot development that just don't exist. That's why people think it's stuipid. 

    Actually, there's a second reason too which A. Ron loves to point out. The Double D's CONSTANTLY put characters in situations where one thing should obviously happen, but it doesn't because reasons. For example, Arya gets the shit stabbed out of her by the Waif and then jumps in a dirty river. Some how, she doesn't die. Which makes no sense given what happened. It's not a plot problem that she lives...but WHY THE FUCK did they decide, let's put her in a situation where she should be dead, but doesn't actually die. Same thing happened with Brienne, Grey Worm and Jamie during the battle of winterfell. 

    So that's why people like me are disappointed. The bullet points are fine, the actual images on screen are amazing, but the rest is totally unearned bullshit. 

    Yeah I totally agree, the connections bewteen a lot of the bullets are weak at best.  My argument is that the bullet points themselves I think are fascinating and shocking yet satisfying in a sad way, and I thought that Aron and Jim were tearing the whole thing apart
    I think they were mostly mad for the two reasons I mentioned...but yeah they were pretty down on it overall. We'll see what they say on Tuesday. 

    I do have faith that if GRRM were to finis the books, and these were the bullet points he was working towards it'd be a fantastic story...but I don't have faith we'll actually get said books lol
    ken hale
  • All of this is to say that the disappointment that we all feel, the anger at Dany's actions, the disbelief when the northmen began to cut down the surrendered Lannister soldiers, the 100th time that Tyrion's been wrong about something because he's absolutely blinded by the belief that he can salvage the scraps of his family from certain death:  these are all exactly what we should be feeling, and what Game of Thrones is all about.  Gut punches that are so shocking, you can't help but come back for more.  

    I'm not gonna defend the half-assed way that all these events unfolded in the medium of film, but the bullet points:  I think they're rock solid.

    -A fan of episode 5

    One of my issues is that all of these characters ARE acting in character...it's just the SAME character they were at the beginning of the series.  Jon is a dumb bastard who isn't a leader of any kind, apparently; Tyrion is smart if he wasn't blinded by loyalty to family; Jamie is in love with Cersei, despite everything he's learned about himself and all the stupid time we spent watching his character arc go full circle; Danyeris is the mad queen she was destined to be, apparently having learned nothing about ruling despite spending four gd seasons learning to rule in Essos; Arya is a scared girl running away from Cersei; I can go on.  Help us, Sansa, you're our only hope. 

    I didn't have any theories I needed to see fulfilled.  I just feel like I've been gut-punched for following these characters so long if they're not going to grow or develop or change as characters.  Like you said, the fact that the story's been half-assedly presented on-screen is another issue, as well.
    bbordmajjam0770BloodyTacoGiovanniCretanBull
  • edited May 13
    I feel like flossing over and saying this episodes only problem was perceived out of character moments is also mistake. The weird moments wit Dany acting “out of character” are at least close to what they kind of tried to build to, but the battle has so many more problems than that. Yeah we have plot problems but even the staging of battles is worse than ever. 
    last episode Euron killed a dragon in 3 shots and destroyed a bunch of boats without a problem. This episode his whole fleet and all the scorpions in the wall shoot maybe a combined 5-10 bolts? How is that even possible. Most of the scorpions get destroyed without even facing the dragon. That jus makes 0 sense.
    Cersei’s whole plan was to use the people as human shields but then the vast majority of her army is in front of the people. Her stated plan was to force Danys hand at being mad but they kill most of the army before even seeing any of the innoncent people. Why did her plan change?
    They were on “equal” footing last episode and this episode Dany wins without seeming lose a single soldier? How is that possible. 
    Watching it was amazing visually but it didn’t feel like a game of thrones episode. 

    majjam0770ken haleBloodyTacoMajorMalfunctionNoel
  • ken hale said:
    All of this is to say that the disappointment that we all feel, the anger at Dany's actions, the disbelief when the northmen began to cut down the surrendered Lannister soldiers, the 100th time that Tyrion's been wrong about something because he's absolutely blinded by the belief that he can salvage the scraps of his family from certain death:  these are all exactly what we should be feeling, and what Game of Thrones is all about.  Gut punches that are so shocking, you can't help but come back for more.  

    I'm not gonna defend the half-assed way that all these events unfolded in the medium of film, but the bullet points:  I think they're rock solid.

    -A fan of episode 5

    One of my issues is that all of these characters ARE acting in character...it's just the SAME character they were at the beginning of the series.  Jon is a dumb bastard who isn't a leader of any kind, apparently; Tyrion is smart if he wasn't blinded by loyalty to family; Jamie is in love with Cersei, despite everything he's learned about himself and all the stupid time we spent watching his character arc go full circle; Danyeris is the mad queen she was destined to be, apparently having learned nothing about ruling despite spending four gd seasons learning to rule in Essos; Arya is a scared girl running away from Cersei; I can go on.  Help us, Sansa, you're our only hope. 

    I didn't have any theories I needed to see fulfilled.  I just feel like I've been gut-punched for following these characters so long if they're not going to grow or develop or change as characters.  Like you said, the fact that the story's been half-assedly presented on-screen is another issue, as well.
    I might be misremembering but I’m pretty sure GRRM has said that his main thesis is “can you really change who you are”, and I think his ultimate take on that is probably “nope, sorry bruh”...that’s really disappointing to someone like myself that comes from a family struggling with substance abuse....

    HOWEVER, I think the worst thing D&D&GRRM could do would be to have waivered on this point, so for them to have gone fully in one direction while literally burning down all apologies was to me a breath of fresh air even though I didn’t want the ending we got, we got the ending we needed...IMO of course lol
    ken haleMurderbear
  • I'm glad this is ending next week, maybe some of you can now make the TV show you want. Never on my life have I seen " fans" tear something down so much unless it's sports. That's what watching this has become a sport. It's no longer entertainment 
    BenSanguinePenguinCeciliaM
  • I made it through the Instant Talk last night and was a bit salty at the guys (for the hyperbole) and at the DD's (for not being better). I thought it was probably a C or C- episode, but not the worst episode in GoT history??? I did a rewatch of the other 7 seasons, and there are some clunkers out there. I guess I have become accustomed to some restraint and appreciation for nuance from the guys, and it wasn't there last night. Even on the latter coverage of TWD (after I had quit watching), I listened to it because it was still enjoyable. I kept thinking "who pissed in these guys' Cheerios?" I half expected Aron to flip the table and walk out!

    The good was pretty good. The bad was disappointing, and in some cases a sign of the D's rushing the season. I don't think they rushed to get out of their contract. I think they just should have done 8-10 episodes to wrap the story up and connect the bullets up top. IMO, the bullets all track...they just didn't give me the nuance that I usually appreciate. 


    rhcoopPeepsMorhuaGiovanni
  • rhcooprhcoop Knoxville, Tn
    rkcrawf said:
    I made it through the Instant Talk last night and was a bit salty at the guys (for the hyperbole) and at the DD's (for not being better). I thought it was probably a C or C- episode, but not the worst episode in GoT history??? I did a rewatch of the other 7 seasons, and there are some clunkers out there. I guess I have become accustomed to some restraint and appreciation for nuance from the guys, and it wasn't there last night. Even on the latter coverage of TWD (after I had quit watching), I listened to it because it was still enjoyable. I kept thinking "who pissed in these guys' Cheerios?" I half expected Aron to flip the table and walk out!

    The good was pretty good. The bad was disappointing, and in some cases a sign of the D's rushing the season. I don't think they rushed to get out of their contract. I think they just should have done 8-10 episodes to wrap the story up and connect the bullets up top. IMO, the bullets all track...they just didn't give me the nuance that I usually appreciate. 


    I'm completely in line with you.  I am not upset with the choices they made story wise, I just wish they would have slowed down and done this in 10 episodes like a normal season so they could have put more nuance on her losing her marbles.

    It could have been handled a LOT better.  

    Additionally, the instant cast could have been handles a LOT better.  Just far too over the top.  I think the guys and a lot of fans have feel far too much in love with their theories or ideas to watch objectively.  

    Maybe they are too close to it now to do that, but I do get tired of listening to SO much hyperbole.  
    SanguinePenguinAll the Chickensrkcrawfmajjam0770avcpl
  • MrXMrX CO
    edited May 13
    I had mixed feelings as I watched this episode - but I kindof started to admire them for just leaning into the horrific and senseless burning of KL ... it kept going and going and going. Not happy about Dany's arc this season but considering this episode by itself I'm not as down on it as others are.

    Anyway I'm not going to hate on J&A for being pissed during an insta-cast. They're processing their feelings in real time, and  this show has been a huge part of their lives and livelihood for a long time - it's ok to be upset if they don't think it's doing a good job of concluding the series. I don't necessarily agree, but folks should calm down a notch in the forums. I'm looking forward to the full cast once they've had a couple days to process and go through feedback.

    If you're looking for some more lighthearted recapping - which I wanted this morning - definitely listen to Boars Gore & Swords - they always have been good at leaning into the absurdity which is nice for this episode. Also Bill Simmons has been recapping the episodes at the end of his Sunday night pods this season, and it's typically amusing in a stupid sort of way - he was very enthusiastic that they finally "unleashed the dragon" lol.
    rkcrawfAnominalmajjam0770rustywright4MorhuaDoubleA_RonAshley
  • rhcoop said:
    rkcrawf said:
    I made it through the Instant Talk last night and was a bit salty at the guys (for the hyperbole) and at the DD's (for not being better). I thought it was probably a C or C- episode, but not the worst episode in GoT history??? I did a rewatch of the other 7 seasons, and there are some clunkers out there. I guess I have become accustomed to some restraint and appreciation for nuance from the guys, and it wasn't there last night. Even on the latter coverage of TWD (after I had quit watching), I listened to it because it was still enjoyable. I kept thinking "who pissed in these guys' Cheerios?" I half expected Aron to flip the table and walk out!

    The good was pretty good. The bad was disappointing, and in some cases a sign of the D's rushing the season. I don't think they rushed to get out of their contract. I think they just should have done 8-10 episodes to wrap the story up and connect the bullets up top. IMO, the bullets all track...they just didn't give me the nuance that I usually appreciate. 


    I'm completely in line with you.  I am not upset with the choices they made story wise, I just wish they would have slowed down and done this in 10 episodes like a normal season so they could have put more nuance on her losing her marbles.

    It could have been handled a LOT better.  

    Additionally, the instant cast could have been handles a LOT better.  Just far too over the top.  I think the guys and a lot of fans have feel far too much in love with their theories or ideas to watch objectively.  

    Maybe they are too close to it now to do that, but I do get tired of listening to SO much hyperbole.  

    This seems to be the biggest misinterpretation of everyone's motives. I don't think it is people being in love with their theories. It is disappointment with the execution of getting to the bullet points. I don't think many are mad that Dany burnt the city, they are upset with the how and why The Double D's decided to get there.
    ken haleBloodyTacoJTKIIIbbordAnominalmajjam0770TravisNoelrustywright4Giovanniand 1 other.
  • I enjoyed it, and felt it was consistent with what the show has always been: a solid dark fantasy, with great world-building, that occasionally gets too up its own butt and becomes just silly.

    For me, the dragon attack was a legit. "woo-hoo" moments.  And overall, I felt the battle scenes were much better executed than the previous 2 episodes.

    Dani's turn was surprising, yet still clearly motivated by her experiences. If the producers had chosen a more traditional arc for her, fans would complain that the end was too predictable.   I do agree with Jim, who suggested that it would have been better to have an event in the battle trigger her -- like Drogon getting a bolt through his tail. Regardless, Jora and Missandei's deaths seem like motivation enough.

    Jamie's end was pathetic, but in line with his character. He always gave in to his weakness, and never earned any kind of redemption. 

    Cleganebowl was gory fun. Not sure what else they could have done there to lend it more stakes. Maybe a callback to the original conflict between the brothers would have helped...

    Arya's choice to leave was surprising, but, again, consistent with the show's pattern of under-cutting its hero figures.  I'm sure she'll be critical to the last episode, so we'll have to see where she ends up.

    Varys's end was a bit of a flop. I feel like the show never had a good handle on what to do with him. I think a "bottle episode" with Varys really would have helped.  Doesn't he still have that sorcerer in his luggage?

    Anyway, that's my 2¢.
    TravisrhcoopMorhuaFreddySimmi0505
  • rkcrawf said:
    I guess I have become accustomed to some restraint and appreciation for nuance from the guys, and it wasn't there last night. Even on the latter coverage of TWD (after I had quit watching), I listened to it because it was still enjoyable. I kept thinking "who pissed in these guys' Cheerios?" I half expected Aron to flip the table and walk out!
    Yeah! I know Aron has a lot invested in this, but I didn't think it could be possible for Jim to get so angry!
  • ken hale said:
    All of this is to say that the disappointment that we all feel, the anger at Dany's actions, the disbelief when the northmen began to cut down the surrendered Lannister soldiers, the 100th time that Tyrion's been wrong about something because he's absolutely blinded by the belief that he can salvage the scraps of his family from certain death:  these are all exactly what we should be feeling, and what Game of Thrones is all about.  Gut punches that are so shocking, you can't help but come back for more.  

    I'm not gonna defend the half-assed way that all these events unfolded in the medium of film, but the bullet points:  I think they're rock solid.

    -A fan of episode 5

    One of my issues is that all of these characters ARE acting in character...it's just the SAME character they were at the beginning of the series.  Jon is a dumb bastard who isn't a leader of any kind, apparently; Tyrion is smart if he wasn't blinded by loyalty to family; Jamie is in love with Cersei, despite everything he's learned about himself and all the stupid time we spent watching his character arc go full circle; Danyeris is the mad queen she was destined to be, apparently having learned nothing about ruling despite spending four gd seasons learning to rule in Essos; Arya is a scared girl running away from Cersei; I can go on.  Help us, Sansa, you're our only hope. 

    I didn't have any theories I needed to see fulfilled.  I just feel like I've been gut-punched for following these characters so long if they're not going to grow or develop or change as characters.  Like you said, the fact that the story's been half-assedly presented on-screen is another issue, as well.
    I might be misremembering but I’m pretty sure GRRM has said that his main thesis is “can you really change who you are”, and I think his ultimate take on that is probably “nope, sorry bruh”...that’s really disappointing to someone like myself that comes from a family struggling with substance abuse....

    HOWEVER, I think the worst thing D&D&GRRM could do would be to have waivered on this point, so for them to have gone fully in one direction while literally burning down all apologies was to me a breath of fresh air even though I didn’t want the ending we got, we got the ending we needed...IMO of course lol
    That's a good analysis of the author's perspective, but don't take it to heart in your own life! GRRM is hardly a genius, especially on matters of personal improvement, and at seven+ years sober I couldn't disagree more with the notion that people can't change!    
    budesignsmajjam0770adampasz
  • edited May 13
    I had to turn off the Instant Talk when Jim said it was the worst episode ever.

    They couldn't understand "why" Dany torched the city? Really? They told you twice IN THIS EPISODE the why of it. She wanted love. She wanted Jon's love. She wanted the people's love. Tyrion tells her "they're hostages" and when she surgically took out only Cersei's fighting forces, she expected the people to come out scream "missa missa" or cheer for her. Instead all she hears is "ring the bells ring the bells." She didn't want surrender, she wanted their love, like she got in Astapor and Meereen. Just like Jon, "am I just a queen to you?" What about love? Without love, she will bring terror and fear. So she said fuck it and burn them all, just like dear old dad.

    A.Ron goes on to trash Arya. who was the viewer's eyes to see the horror on the ground, to see the effect this kind of warfare has on the common people. Who else could we see this perspective through? Sandor gave her a chance to reclaim her humanity, which was a fantastic and poignant moment in both of their character arcs.

    This wasn't an F- episode, but a solid B+ or A- and executed brilliantly. The Bald Move guys were so up their own ass with their pet theories they were pre-disposed to hating this, and they did. I thought declaring "fan bankruptcy" meant enjoying the story the Double D's were telling and not letting your fan theories get in the way. Well, the D's have all along foreshadowed the Mad queen and they delivered.  A.Ron especially seemed mad the the Valonqar prophecy was "nothing" well guess what it was never part of the show to begin with, as it was only a book thing.

    I could go on and on, but their podcast was so off base and petty it pissed me off.
    rhcoopAaronlengmoMorhuaadampaszFreddyGeneticBlueprintmft9186Falconavcpland 2 others.
  • HunkuleseHunkulese Québec, Canada
    edited May 13
    I had to turn off the Instant Talk when Jim said it was the worst episode ever.

    They couldn't understand "why" Dany torched the city? Really? They told you twice IN THIS EPISODE the why of it. She wanted love. She wanted Jon's love. She wanted the people's love. Tyrion tells her "they're hostages" and when she surgically took out only Cersei's fighting forces, she expected the people to come out scream "missa missa" or cheer for her. Instead all she hears is "ring the belles ring the bells." She didn't want surrender, she wanted their love, like she got in Astapor and Meereen. Just like Jon, "am I just a queen to you?" What about love? Without love, she will bring terror and fear. So she said fuck it and burn them all, just like dear old dad.

    It's pretty easy to see why no one can understand why she torched the city. It makes zero logical sense. It serves no purpose. It goes against everything she's done and said for the past 8 seasons. The only reason it happened was to show us that she's crazy.

    I didn't listen to the Instant Talk so I don't know their arguments. Not sure if I'd call it the worst episode ever since the direction and technical aspects were remarkable, but this entire final season is easily the most disappointing season of television I've seen. And everything was set up so perfectly after 802. It's at the point where we'll be telling people new to GoT to stop after 802 and pretend the Night King came in darkness and won just like people tell new Star Wars fans to watch 4,5,6 then stop.
    rustywright4Bhorten1
  • edited May 13
    Hunkulese said:
    I had to turn off the Instant Talk when Jim said it was the worst episode ever.

    They couldn't understand "why" Dany torched the city? Really? They told you twice IN THIS EPISODE the why of it. She wanted love. She wanted Jon's love. She wanted the people's love. Tyrion tells her "they're hostages" and when she surgically took out only Cersei's fighting forces, she expected the people to come out scream "missa missa" or cheer for her. Instead all she hears is "ring the belles ring the bells." She didn't want surrender, she wanted their love, like she got in Astapor and Meereen. Just like Jon, "am I just a queen to you?" What about love? Without love, she will bring terror and fear. So she said fuck it and burn them all, just like dear old dad.

    It's pretty easy to see why no one can understand why she torched the city. It makes zero logical sense. It serves no purpose. It goes against everything she's done and said for the past 8 seasons. The only reason it happened was to show us that she's crazy.
    They told us TWICE in this episode that she wanted love. Her conversation with Tyrion was the first time. The scene with Jon was the second. This wasn't a departure from character but a fulfillment of all the foreshadowing for 8 seasons.  She waited.........waited to hear the people whom she had just freed from the oppression of Cersei's forces to come out and LOVE her. They didn't and that was the final straw. She expected and needed a Meereen like love fest. She didn't just want to be someone's queen, she wanted them to adore her for it. Without love, all she has is fire and blood. If you haven't gotten that message after 8 seasons I don't know what you have been watching,
    lengmoawookiee
  • HunkuleseHunkulese Québec, Canada
    Hunkulese said:
    I had to turn off the Instant Talk when Jim said it was the worst episode ever.

    They couldn't understand "why" Dany torched the city? Really? They told you twice IN THIS EPISODE the why of it. She wanted love. She wanted Jon's love. She wanted the people's love. Tyrion tells her "they're hostages" and when she surgically took out only Cersei's fighting forces, she expected the people to come out scream "missa missa" or cheer for her. Instead all she hears is "ring the belles ring the bells." She didn't want surrender, she wanted their love, like she got in Astapor and Meereen. Just like Jon, "am I just a queen to you?" What about love? Without love, she will bring terror and fear. So she said fuck it and burn them all, just like dear old dad.

    It's pretty easy to see why no one can understand why she torched the city. It makes zero logical sense. It serves no purpose. It goes against everything she's done and said for the past 8 seasons. The only reason it happened was to show us that she's crazy.
    They told us TWICE in this episode that she wanted love. Her conversation with Tyrion was the first time. The scene with Jon was the second. This wasn't a departure from character but a fulfillment of all the foreshadowing for 8 seasons.  She waited.........waited to hear the people whom she had just freed from the oppression of Cersei's forces to come out and LOVE her. They didn't and that was the final straw. She expected and needed a Meereen like love fest. She didn't just want to be someone's queen, she wanted them to adore her for it. Without love, all she has is fire and blood. If you haven't gotten that message after 8 seasons I don't know what you have been watching,
    There's not logical or consistent about her wanting love and then exterminating the entire city. They never had a chance to show her love. She's just crazy. If she wanted love, all she needed to do was be a good queen, bam, love.
    rustywright4
  • edited May 13
    Hunkulese said:
    Hunkulese said:
    I had to turn off the Instant Talk when Jim said it was the worst episode ever.

    They couldn't understand "why" Dany torched the city? Really? They told you twice IN THIS EPISODE the why of it. She wanted love. She wanted Jon's love. She wanted the people's love. Tyrion tells her "they're hostages" and when she surgically took out only Cersei's fighting forces, she expected the people to come out scream "missa missa" or cheer for her. Instead all she hears is "ring the belles ring the bells." She didn't want surrender, she wanted their love, like she got in Astapor and Meereen. Just like Jon, "am I just a queen to you?" What about love? Without love, she will bring terror and fear. So she said fuck it and burn them all, just like dear old dad.

    It's pretty easy to see why no one can understand why she torched the city. It makes zero logical sense. It serves no purpose. It goes against everything she's done and said for the past 8 seasons. The only reason it happened was to show us that she's crazy.
    They told us TWICE in this episode that she wanted love. Her conversation with Tyrion was the first time. The scene with Jon was the second. This wasn't a departure from character but a fulfillment of all the foreshadowing for 8 seasons.  She waited.........waited to hear the people whom she had just freed from the oppression of Cersei's forces to come out and LOVE her. They didn't and that was the final straw. She expected and needed a Meereen like love fest. She didn't just want to be someone's queen, she wanted them to adore her for it. Without love, all she has is fire and blood. If you haven't gotten that message after 8 seasons I don't know what you have been watching,
    There's not logical or consistent about her wanting love and then exterminating the entire city. They never had a chance to show her love. She's just crazy. If she wanted love, all she needed to do was be a good queen, bam, love.

    She sat atop Drogon after surgical strikes on only military targets and expected the citizens to pour out of their homes and cheer their hero, who had vanquished Cersei and her evil oppressors. Asked "why don't the people rise up against Cersei" and Tyrion tells her the people would if they only could, "but they are hostages." So she freed them and they did not give her love or adoration. That was the final betrayal. She had been betrayed by everyone. Her advisors. Even her lover. When finally the people, who from her eyes, she had just freed like she had the slaves of Astapor and Meereen, did not sing her praises, then dracarys them all to hell and back. In my mind it was a perfect culmination of her journey from savior angel to angel of death.
    lengmoFlukes
  • Hunkulese said:
    Hunkulese said:
    I had to turn off the Instant Talk when Jim said it was the worst episode ever.

    They couldn't understand "why" Dany torched the city? Really? They told you twice IN THIS EPISODE the why of it. She wanted love. She wanted Jon's love. She wanted the people's love. Tyrion tells her "they're hostages" and when she surgically took out only Cersei's fighting forces, she expected the people to come out scream "missa missa" or cheer for her. Instead all she hears is "ring the belles ring the bells." She didn't want surrender, she wanted their love, like she got in Astapor and Meereen. Just like Jon, "am I just a queen to you?" What about love? Without love, she will bring terror and fear. So she said fuck it and burn them all, just like dear old dad.

    It's pretty easy to see why no one can understand why she torched the city. It makes zero logical sense. It serves no purpose. It goes against everything she's done and said for the past 8 seasons. The only reason it happened was to show us that she's crazy.
    They told us TWICE in this episode that she wanted love. Her conversation with Tyrion was the first time. The scene with Jon was the second. This wasn't a departure from character but a fulfillment of all the foreshadowing for 8 seasons.  She waited.........waited to hear the people whom she had just freed from the oppression of Cersei's forces to come out and LOVE her. They didn't and that was the final straw. She expected and needed a Meereen like love fest. She didn't just want to be someone's queen, she wanted them to adore her for it. Without love, all she has is fire and blood. If you haven't gotten that message after 8 seasons I don't know what you have been watching,
    There's not logical or consistent about her wanting love and then exterminating the entire city. They never had a chance to show her love. She's just crazy. If she wanted love, all she needed to do was be a good queen, bam, love.

    She sat atop Drogon after surgical strikes on only military targets and expected the citizens to pour out of their homes and cheer their hero, who had vanquished Cersei and her evil oppressors. Asked "why don't the people rise up against Cersei" and Tyrion tells her the people would if they only could, "but they are hostages." So she freed them and they did not give her love or adoration. That was the final betrayal. She had been betrayed by everyone. Her advisors. Even her lover. When finally the people, who from her eyes, she had just freed like she had the slaves of Astapor and Meereen, did not sing her praises, then dracarys them all to hell and back. In my mind it was a perfect culmination of her journey from savior angel to angel of death.
    That's an interesting take, and somewhat compelling, but I disagree that it was showed well enough on screen to be anything more than "head cannon". 
    majjam0770rustywright4
  • HunkuleseHunkulese Québec, Canada
    Hunkulese said:
    Hunkulese said:
    I had to turn off the Instant Talk when Jim said it was the worst episode ever.

    They couldn't understand "why" Dany torched the city? Really? They told you twice IN THIS EPISODE the why of it. She wanted love. She wanted Jon's love. She wanted the people's love. Tyrion tells her "they're hostages" and when she surgically took out only Cersei's fighting forces, she expected the people to come out scream "missa missa" or cheer for her. Instead all she hears is "ring the belles ring the bells." She didn't want surrender, she wanted their love, like she got in Astapor and Meereen. Just like Jon, "am I just a queen to you?" What about love? Without love, she will bring terror and fear. So she said fuck it and burn them all, just like dear old dad.

    It's pretty easy to see why no one can understand why she torched the city. It makes zero logical sense. It serves no purpose. It goes against everything she's done and said for the past 8 seasons. The only reason it happened was to show us that she's crazy.
    They told us TWICE in this episode that she wanted love. Her conversation with Tyrion was the first time. The scene with Jon was the second. This wasn't a departure from character but a fulfillment of all the foreshadowing for 8 seasons.  She waited.........waited to hear the people whom she had just freed from the oppression of Cersei's forces to come out and LOVE her. They didn't and that was the final straw. She expected and needed a Meereen like love fest. She didn't just want to be someone's queen, she wanted them to adore her for it. Without love, all she has is fire and blood. If you haven't gotten that message after 8 seasons I don't know what you have been watching,
    There's not logical or consistent about her wanting love and then exterminating the entire city. They never had a chance to show her love. She's just crazy. If she wanted love, all she needed to do was be a good queen, bam, love.

    She sat atop Drogon after surgical strikes on only military targets and expected the citizens to pour out of their homes and cheer their hero, who had vanquished Cersei and her evil oppressors. Asked "why don't the people rise up against Cersei" and Tyrion tells her the people would if they only could, "but they are hostages." So she freed them and they did not give her love or adoration. That was the final betrayal. She had been betrayed by everyone. Her advisors. Even her lover. When finally the people, who from her eyes, she had just freed like she had the slaves of Astapor and Meereen, did not sing her praises, then dracarys them all to hell and back. In my mind it was a perfect culmination of her journey from savior angel to angel of death.
    So you don't have a problem that her extreme illogical character change that happened in episode 72 had the tracks laid in episode 72? What about the previous 70 episodes where she was all about protecting the innocents and ending tyranny? There was nothing logical about her nuking the city. She went crazy and that's all that was on the screen.
  • First, the guys are entitled to give their honest opinions, and I appreciate it. It's their show, we pay for it, and it's normally a plus. I do wish it hadn't been so emotionally charged. And now, I'm over it.

    In my mind, Dany's decision to torch the city is where the producers f'd up. It is there in earlier scenes. She wants love from Jon, even though she's always treated him as a subject first. She wants to rule by love, even though she's holding a dragon over Westeros' head. There's no situation where her advisors should have told her ruling by force would inspire love. In retrospect, it seems silly that she didn't realize it beforehand. I felt like she did in the throne room scene, and she had her fingers crossed when she promised Tyrion that she'd respect the Bells. 

    My take is that once the battle started, Dany realized that rule by fear is the only thing that makes sense once you've unleashed a dragon. Burning these innocents would prevent resistance in the rest of Westeros (the Hiroshima/Nagasaki argument). I don't agree with that, but I would have bought that as Dany's motivation if they had set it up properly.
    Travis
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