Supporters of the Episode 805 The Bells, I have some questions.

AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
What was going through Dany’s mind as she was taking in the fact that The Bells were ringing? What was her tipping point? Was it in that moment?

Why wasn’t surrender enough? Why destroy half the city and her own castle?

What is her reaction going to be next episode to what she did? Righteous fury? Or regret and think she went overboard? Does she think it was a good victory? If she thinks her lesson was taught, will she want to now help the poor? Will she still say she freed them from tyranny and also actually try to command that aid be given to those in need? Or will she have changed her mind and just want the focus on her and who cares about them?

Will she want to rule from King’s Landing? Maybe order the Red Keep be rebuilt, or an even grander castle to be built?

How does she view Cersei’s army? The people? Does she think of them as the same thing? Will she execute more people? Will she accept some to swear to her as Queen and only kill high ranking people like the Tarly’s?

What does she think of Grey Worm’s actions? If Grey Worm tells her that Jon tried stopping him, what does she think of that? And will she do anything about it?

Does she even want to rule or just want to continue destroying everything?

I’m fine with her going mad. I was even anticipating it because it was very bluntly telegraphed. But in that final moment, I was completely lost. Was it clear to you? How do you feel about the other reasons stated by other supporters of the episode? Do you feel like there’s a fairly generally agreed upon reason? Do you feel it was weighted towards one particular reason or just a general little bit of everything?

What happened and what does she want now. My brain isn’t connecting the final dots to understand her state of mind at the end of the episode to be able to guess what she wants with King’s Landing and it’s people.


CretanBull
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Comments

  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited May 15
    I don’t necessarily expect that to be answered point by point. It was a brain dump of questions. It mostly boils down to that end. What was she thinking in that exact moment the bells were ringing, and she looks out at the rooftops and keep, and we see her face and then commits to destroying the city. And what is her state of mind coming into the finale.
  • I can’t answer all these questions and don’t consider myself a supporter (mixed review) but my last post in the main episode thread sums it up...

    The show is telling us Dany sees her life’s goal achieved, but feels unfulfilled by accomplishing it because the price was too high. She expected some cathartic victory but didn’t get it. All the other motives (previous acts of dispassionate violence, unrequited affection from Jon and the North, genetic predisposition for madness, betrayal, and the loss of her friends/army/children) put chinks in her psyche. So she went full Drogo to try to balance the scales. 
    Anominaldansbeentheman
  • If they bother explaining that in show next episode, I think this episode will age better. 
    AnominalZoner07
  • She released a statement earlier, as mentioned in the podcast 
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxZgwFZh0Dg
    cdriveAnominal
  • It’s getting to the point where if you support episode 5, people who don’t like the episode want you to explain yourself in the same vein as if you voted for Trump...time to chill out on both sides 
    DeeJoshKristFalcon
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    rkcrawf said:
    If they bother explaining that in show next episode, I think this episode will age better. 
    That isn't something I'd considered. If they do actually open up the episode (or at least somewhere in the first parts of the episode) with her explaining it. A first time binge watch might actually work okay.

    She lands from the battle and Jon confronts her and she says why. There are ways it could still be completely baffling, but it could also tie it together better. Maybe not perfect, but better. 

    But I can also see her land and refuses to say anything about her motivations because she's the ruler, not him, and she doesn't have to explain herself. 
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    It’s getting to the point where if you support episode 5, people who don’t like the episode want you to explain yourself in the same vein as if you voted for Trump...time to chill out on both sides 
    So we can have threads asking to explain why people dislike the episode, but can't ask what people saw in this episode and what they're taking with them into the finale? I don't even think that second part has even been talked about much in any of the discussions. 
    BloodyTacoken hale
  • LordByLordBy Utah
    With the rush, lack of context or time for character decisions, etc. so far; it’s pretty optimistic to think D&D will be able to tie it all together in the last episode. Probably better to go in with as low of expectations as possible and hope for a pleasant surprise.
    blacksunrise7
  • edited May 15
    Not sure I would call myself a "supporter", but I will try to answer, having rewatched the episode last night.  (Please don't hate on me. Just trying to share my perspective as someone who was OK with the episode.)

    What was going through Dany’s mind as she was taking in the fact that The Bells were ringing? What was her tipping point? Was it in that moment?
    I don't think the show provides a definitive answer, so it is open to interpretation. But there is a lot of cross-cutting between Cersei and Dany. My sense from watching the episode was that Dany was thinking about Missandei.

    Why wasn’t surrender enough? Why destroy half the city and her own castle?
    She destroys the Keep to completely obliterate Cersei and the center of her power. It is less clear why she arbitrarily starts destroying streets not directly between her and the keep. Honestly, I think this was a probably a mis-step by the creators, and this is the primary sticking point that has infuriated so many fans.  It definitely crosses a line that seems out of character.  My best explanation is that the madness fully overcomes her, she gives in to Drogon's animal instincts, and he starts burning the nearest living thing.  Maybe he's hungry. Or maybe he's pissed about Viserion. Who knows what motivates a dragon.  I guess the scene still works for me as a sort of morality play about the danger of (literally) toying with fire...

    What is her reaction going to be next episode to what she did? Righteous fury? Or regret and think she went overboard? Does she think it was a good victory? If she thinks her lesson was taught, will she want to now help the poor? Will she still say she freed them from tyranny and also actually try to command that aid be given to those in need? Or will she have changed her mind and just want the focus on her and who cares about them?
    I guess we'll find out soon enough. ;)

    Will she want to rule from King’s Landing? Maybe order the Red Keep be rebuilt, or an even grander castle to be built?
    It seems more likely she would rule from Dragonstone. There is a certain symmetry to the story if she wipes out the city her ancestors built.

    How does she view Cersei’s army? The people? Does she think of them as the same thing? Will she execute more people? Will she accept some to swear to her as Queen and only kill high ranking people like the Tarly’s?
    A lot of this is open to interpretation. It seems her arc is from someone who started out as a liberator of the common people, but who is now evolving into an extremist who believes everything must be razed before something better can grow.  The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Maybe her experience in Westeros has made her realize that the kinship she thought she felt with commoners is illusory. And now her true kinship to her Targaryen ancestors is ascendent. 

    What does she think of Grey Worm’s actions? If Grey Worm tells her that Jon tried stopping him, what does she think of that? And will she do anything about it?
    I imagine she's OK with what Grey Worm did.  Jon trying to stop him is part of Jon's fundamental nature, which will continue to sow (perhaps devastating) conflict with Dany.

    Does she even want to rule or just want to continue destroying everything?
    I think she is thinking: burn everything down, then rebuild fresh.

    I’m fine with her going mad. I was even anticipating it because it was very bluntly telegraphed. But in that final moment, I was completely lost. Was it clear to you? How do you feel about the other reasons stated by other supporters of the episode? Do you feel like there’s a fairly generally agreed upon reason? Do you feel it was weighted towards one particular reason or just a general little bit of everything?
    As above, I think it is open to interpretation. For me, as I watched, I felt it was most directly related to Missandei's death.  I agree with others that it would have been better for TV to show an immediate motivating reason. But I also don't think it's the end of the world to leave it open-ended.

    What happened and what does she want now. My brain isn’t connecting the final dots to understand her state of mind at the end of the episode to be able to guess what she wants with King’s Landing and it’s people.
    I think she wants to destroy King's Landing utterly because it is a symbol of her enemies. To "break the wheel" appears it will require a complete razing first.

    I'll end with a question: Compare Dany's arc to Theon's when he "broke bad". He also invaded a city, and murdered children and innocents ... albeit not on the same scale. His turn was also unexpected, since he had been presented as a fairly good character in the first season. Indeed, his motivation -- wanting to earn the respect of his family -- is arguably less justifiable than Dany's. Why was there not similar outrage about his actions? 
    SanguinePenguinUnderwood
  • For me, it is apparent that Danny has been trying to convince herself that she is a westerosi transplanted across the sea, and the rightful heir to the throne. But over the seasons, she has slowly come to terms with the fact that she actually an essosi(?) and has no affinity for Westeros or their thrones. She will rule over them, but in a tyrannical way because they have only shown her fear or distrust since she arrived. Even Jon, the one person to love her, has grown distant and out of love but still fears what would happen if he betrayed her. It makes perfect sense to me why she would kill these innocent people of King’s landing; the slaves of Meereen were captive there, whereas the people of kings landing had a choice to leave. 

    I also loved the choice to not show dany’s POV after she started destroying the city. Excellent way to turn her into a monster. 
    PreservedKillick
  • The rapid cutting between her and Cersei and the Red Keep. She was thinking: Cersei is NOT getting away with a surrender and quick death. She needs to be made to suffer like I did when she cut Missandei's head off.
    SanguinePenguin
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited May 15
    @adampasz

    Thanks for the reply. I'm not here to talk anyone out of how they viewed the episode, just asking to read their interpretations. 

    As for your question. I'll try my best. But I was also a book reader way before the show ever started, and it's been a long time since I've watched the early seasons. I feel like it was very clearly setup as an either or choice. He went home, got told how bad of a son he is, how bad of an Iron Islander he is, how everything he's ever been proud of makes him look like a fool in his father's eyes. And then he goes home and stares at a letter (?) making it clear he was contemplating one path or the other before he made his choice. I feel like it's always clear about the choice he was considering and why. One family or the other. 

    (This is the part where this example is interesting in a way I hadn't thought about before.)

    Theon takes Winterfell because he thinks that will get his father's approval, but it was actually a dumb idea and works against his goal like Dany randomly slaughtering seems like it should. But I feel like I can more clearly see why Theon thought it would be a good idea. But also... After Theon took Winterfell and after they all submitted to him, he executed only Ser Roderick for defying him. Anyone else that submitted to him and maybe have ugly glances or whatever else, he didn't touch them. After they submitted to him he didn't take a look around and start randomly killing the people, because he wanted to rule them. If they wouldn't respect him, he would at least make them fear him as someone who would kill them for their defiance, but he gave them the chance first. 
  • Anominal said:
    @adampasz

     But also... After Theon took Winterfell and after they all submitted to him, he executed only Ser Roderick for defying him. Anyone else that submitted to him and maybe have ugly glances or whatever else, he didn't touch them. After they submitted to him he didn't take a look around and start randomly killing the people, because he wanted to rule them. If they wouldn't respect him, he would at least make them fear him as someone who would kill them for their defiance, but he gave them the chance first. 
    well, he did execute innocent farm children and burn their corpses passing them off as the Stark boys, so it was pretty fucking heinous all around.
    adampasz
  • Teresa from ConcordTeresa from Concord Concord, California
    A few of my thoughts - with all Dany has seen she snaps over Missandei? But little emotion over the death of her children. This is based on what I’ve seen and not interpretation. 

    Dany did not obliterate Cersei who should have been a direct target. Instead Cersei dies in a tunnel under rocks. This is based on what I’ve seen and not interpretation

    Dany specifically told Yara “no more raping and reeling.” I think you know where I’m going with this. This is based on what I’ve seen and not interpretation. 

    I guess what I'm saying is that my biggest problem is that I spent years with the story and the characters and I’m left with mansplaining by the DD’s and my interpretation. 

     
    blacksunrise7
  • edited May 15
    well, he did execute innocent farm children and burn their corpses passing them off as the Stark boys, so it was pretty fucking heinous all around.
    The Hound is another character that I've found utterly heinous, yet the show has often presented him as redeemable.  It's a show with a really nihilistic vision at its core. This has been true since season 1, even as the pacing and story-telling have evolved (or devolved?).
    SanguinePenguinken hale
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited May 15
    Anominal said:
    @adampasz

     But also... After Theon took Winterfell and after they all submitted to him, he executed only Ser Roderick for defying him. Anyone else that submitted to him and maybe have ugly glances or whatever else, he didn't touch them. After they submitted to him he didn't take a look around and start randomly killing the people, because he wanted to rule them. If they wouldn't respect him, he would at least make them fear him as someone who would kill them for their defiance, but he gave them the chance first. 
    well, he did execute innocent farm children and burn their corpses passing them off as the Stark boys, so it was pretty fucking heinous all around.
    Oh right, I was going to mention that. It was heinous, but it was also clear why he was doing it. It was clear it was to fake that he murdered Bran and Rickon and wasn't random. 

    Anger at that is an anger about what he did while knowing and understanding his reasons why, and not confusion. (But like someone else mentioned earlier, they still might actually explain her reasoning in the beginning-ish part of the finale. So there's still some hope for that.)
    SanguinePenguinken hale
  • Dany did not obliterate Cersei who should have been a direct target. Instead Cersei dies in a tunnel under rocks. This is based on what I’ve seen and not interpretation
    Yeah, I agree the creators made a pretty big mis-step here, and have left us with an interesting mess to ponder.



  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    edited May 15
    Don’t forget there was a strong goading Theon on component- between his father making him feel like a loser and then in the actual taking of Winterfell, he tries to let Ser Roderick off with the dungeon and his 2nd, who clearly thinks Theon is a loser, tells him that the man cannot be left alive or no islanders will respect Theon.

    Anominal said:
    @adampasz

     But also... After Theon took Winterfell and after they all submitted to him, he executed only Ser Roderick for defying him. Anyone else that submitted to him and maybe have ugly glances or whatever else, he didn't touch them. After they submitted to him he didn't take a look around and start randomly killing the people, because he wanted to rule them. If they wouldn't respect him, he would at least make them fear him as someone who would kill them for their defiance, but he gave them the chance first. 
    well, he did execute innocent farm children and burn their corpses passing them off as the Stark boys, so it was pretty fucking heinous all around. .
    SanguinePenguin
  • edited May 15
    adampasz said:
    Dany did not obliterate Cersei who should have been a direct target. Instead Cersei dies in a tunnel under rocks. This is based on what I’ve seen and not interpretation
    Yeah, I agree the creators made a pretty big mis-step here, and have left us with an interesting mess to ponder.


    This was deliberate. She didn't want Cersei to have a quick death. She wanted Cersei to watch her city burn. She wanted Cersei to suffer.
    SanguinePenguin
  • edited May 15
    This was deliberate. She didn't want Cersei to have a quick death. She wanted Cersei to watch her city burn. She wanted Cersei to suffer.
    For me, that wasn't clear from what we got. Cersei has no love for the commoners. Many of the people who burned were probably the same people that taunted Cersei during the shame march.

    I like my interpretation better -- the dragon just went bananas, and Dany was simply along for the ride. :)
    Doctor_NickTeresa from Concord
  • LordByLordBy Utah
    adampasz said:
    Dany did not obliterate Cersei who should have been a direct target. Instead Cersei dies in a tunnel under rocks. This is based on what I’ve seen and not interpretation
    Yeah, I agree the creators made a pretty big mis-step here, and have left us with an interesting mess to ponder.


    This was deliberate. She didn't want Cersei to have a quick death. She wanted Cersei to watch her city burn. She wanted Cersei to suffer.
    Why would anyone be under the illusion that Cersei cared the least bit for the common folk of Kings Landing?
    ken hale
  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited May 15
    She cares for them in that they are a symbol of her power. Not as people, but how they reflect on her. They are things to sometimes be used and discarded but something to be very carefully maintained. She was the one trying to temper Joffrey's worst instincts. She has some kind of sense of what it means to rule that she picked up from Tywin.

    Why Dany would believe that? I'm not sure. 
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    Not that the show showed us much about that, but Cersei dispensed with most of the traditional concerns of running a state when she blew the Sept.  I think the not caring about exposing her relationship was evidence of that. 

    Anominal said:
    She cares for them in that they are a symbol of her power. Not as people, but how they reflect on her. They are things to sometimes be used and discarded but something to be very carefully maintained. She was the one trying to temper Joffrey's worst instincts. She has some kind of sense of what it means to rule that she picked up from Tywin.

    Why Dany would believe that? I'm not sure. 

  • AnominalAnominal San Francisco Bay Area
    edited May 15
    I don't think I agree with that. If the head of the major religion of a country imprisions the head of state, tortures, and extorts them, I don't know that I wouldn't call that an extremely hostile act that is basically a declaration of war.

    She threw in her other rivals, but I'm not sure how that's seen by the regular people? They don't really flesh that out in the show.

    I don't feel too strongly either way, but I don't think it's a rock solid one way or the other. 
  • Anominal said:
    It’s getting to the point where if you support episode 5, people who don’t like the episode want you to explain yourself in the same vein as if you voted for Trump...time to chill out on both sides 
    So we can have threads asking to explain why people dislike the episode, but can't ask what people saw in this episode and what they're taking with them into the finale? I don't even think that second part has even been talked about much in any of the discussions. 
    You asked 26 questions that speak to the mind and thought process of another human being who lives in another place that’s isn’t real and neither is she...are supporters of the episode supposed to take that seriously?

     Because if it was meant seriously and not as another sarcastic slant towards people who just enjoy the show then I honestly and un-sarcastically apologize, for real, there has been so much personal attacking going on (on both sides as well as myself I’m sure) that it would be easy to mistake an unironically asked question for a sarcastic one...so seriously if it wasn’t meant in jest then mea culpa  
  • edited May 15
    I totally get why people like Aaron and Jim are disappointed, because I know where they coming from. Of course show should have had one more nudge.

    For me, I just want to enjoy it.

    Why she snapped, lol people snap all the time, they beat the shit out of their spouse, in war people rape and burn, people with power mostly get corrupt, Dany has been tormented all her life and every time she wins by release of fire and blood ( mostly people deserve it)
    1. season one - witch lady
    2. slave dealer
    3. masters
    4. Khals
    5. Masters
    6. Tarlys
    7. She has been humiliated since she landed, fucked over, she took whole army and dragons to save northern fuckers and smug sanasa was being bitch. John doesnt kneel, then she sacrifice her dragon then he wants to be king again, Cerci and lannisters finished her family.

    Till now she has been just but it doesnt take much time to snap, when you are targaryen odds are against you all the time, you just have to snap once. 

    The fever, the rage, the feeling of powerlessness that turns good men... cruel.


    SanguinePenguin
  • Doctor_NickDoctor_Nick Terminus
    Cersei no longer cares about hiding her relationship with Jamie after blowing up the Sept, which is a sign that normal concerns no longer matter. 
  • Anominal said:
    It’s getting to the point where if you support episode 5, people who don’t like the episode want you to explain yourself in the same vein as if you voted for Trump...time to chill out on both sides 
    So we can have threads asking to explain why people dislike the episode, but can't ask what people saw in this episode and what they're taking with them into the finale? I don't even think that second part has even been talked about much in any of the discussions. 
    You asked 26 questions that speak to the mind and thought process of another human being who lives in another place that’s isn’t real and neither is she...are supporters of the episode supposed to take that seriously?

     Because if it was meant seriously and not as another sarcastic slant towards people who just enjoy the show then I honestly and un-sarcastically apologize, for real, there has been so much personal attacking going on (on both sides as well as myself I’m sure) that it would be easy to mistake an unironically asked question for a sarcastic one...so seriously if it wasn’t meant in jest then mea culpa  
    I think his comment that immediately followed his main post sums up what he means and wants from this post...

    "I don’t necessarily expect that to be answered point by point. It was a brain dump of questions. It mostly boils down to that end. What was she thinking in that exact moment the bells were ringing, and she looks out at the rooftops and keep, and we see her face and then commits to destroying the city. And what is her state of mind coming into the finale." 


    djcaudle01Anominalken hale
  • edited May 16
    They clearly had some big missteps by what they did, specifically showing the city surrendering and THEN Dany going and destroying everything.  I see the issues with the people that hate the episode for this BUT I am not one of them.  Yes the motivation wasn't shown on screen but I am not one to let something like this more or less ruin the episode for me.  I thought this was an amazing episode and the utter destruction and chaos was done in a way that was horrifyingly beautiful.  

    The other big thing I think people are overlooking is that there is still one episode left that can partially rectify what was done and can help put you in the head space of Dany.  I specifically said partially because I really don't think there's any way they can fully redeem themselves for what they did.  I really hope that they address this and give at least some insight but I think at this point the damage is done and there is nothing that can be done to fix it completely. 
  • After my first watch of the episode I was truly shocked by what Dany did , but I didn't have a problem with it like thinking it was character assassination or anything , maybe I just accepted her being the mad Queen as far as season 6 . The only issue I had was with Jaime going back to Cersei and dying together ( biased because I really was hoping for the valonqar theory to happen ).  After I rewatched the episode I fell in love with it even more and I actually think it's one of the best episode of the series , guess I just buy that Dany turned mad , she snapped  . It works for me , maybe it helps that I was never a true believer in Dany . All that stuff about Euron and Jaime doesn't really bother me as well because we long accepted that stupid stuff like this happen on the show ex the beyond the wall ep last season and the whole gendry rum back to EASTWATCH to send a Raven . I am really flabbergasted by the utter negative reaction to this ep . 
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