George's Bullet Points

Can we now predict the bullet points GRRM gave the Double D's that were used in the show?  For purposes of this discussion, let's assume GRRM finishes the last two books.

Here's a few I'm guessing:

- Bran is king.  I believe GRRM's thought process here was how majestic and phenomenal it would be to have a 3-eyed crow actually ruling the 7 kingdoms.  I could get on board with that.  However, the show failed - rather miserably - to develop Bran as any kind of resourceful and inspirational ruler - hell, even someone with basic communication skills - so it's very underwhelming and trivial in the show that anyone would want Bran as a king and ruler.  In defense of the Double-D's, Bran is tough, tough content to write.  If you're not a brilliant writer like GRRM, it seems like a daunting task to write Bran's journey as a 3-eyed crow unleashed in the seven kingdoms.  George, however, will likely spend much time on Bran's journey and carve a realistic path that leads to Bran as king.

- Daenerys goes mad.  This was definitely hinted at in Dance.  The show did a pretty bad job convincing us though.  I appreciate the shock value the show gave us, but I suspect the book will do a much better job describing her dissent into madness.

 - I suspect the Double D's freelanced on the dynamic of Cersei, Jaime, and Tyion.  It seems utterly ridiculous that Tyrion would continually get own'd by Cersei with some sort of blind faith in her.  And Jaime is pretty level-headed in the books; for him to all of the sudden pivot to being evil and run back to Cersei out of love seems a bit much.  I venture to guess the dynamic and outcome between the Lannisters will be much different, and I still believe either Jaime or Tyrion will kill Cersei.
gjames80

Comments

  • oh you sweet summer child. your faith in GRRM is misplaced, I fear. I don't think he'll finish the books. that said, assuming he did finish them, what makes you think his connecting the dots will be any more satisfying or believable? I fear that if he were to ever finish the story, he would garden himself more into the weeds and they would be unwieldy and unreadable. his works started crisp and tight and with each successive tome became more and more ponderous. but that's just me.
    awookieehoos30
  • I think every major plot point we saw, with the exception of Cersei being queen instead of Faegon being king, is a GRRM bullet point. That was the major problem. What we got was the TV equivalent of reading a wikipedia plot synopsis - I can build in my mind reasons for all of the events that happened to have happened, but the show did a terrible job showing us what led to these events. 
    hoos30gjames80
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    edited May 20
    GRRM recently said that he expects the show to be/end very similar to the books.
    The differences will be in how they get there and variations in sub-plots and the fates of various characters.

    Endings are almost always a let down. People have a hard time separating the difference between the natural negative emotion they are feeling when finishing an epic book series and actually disliking the ending or hacking a better ending that feels true to the tone of the series. I expect I'll feel similarly when/if the books are ever finished, but I'm not going to nitpick and create alternate universes for what I think should have happened.
    CeciliaMgjames80
  • podcartfanpodcartfan Cincinnati
    The DD's said he gave them three that were "oh shit" moments.  Two being the burning of Shireen and Hodor's name origin. The third has not been confirmed and I believe the DD's said they weren't going to confirm it.  I would guess either Dany going mad queen or Jon Killing Dany.
    hoos30ken hale
  • LordByLordBy Utah
    I’d wager against Arya killing the Night King being in the bullets partially because there is not really a Night King in the books (so far at least) and partially because I think he’s going to pay off the Azor Ahai mythology there.

    Bran being King is just too out there to not be a bullet I guess, but the path in the show wasn’t earned at all. You’d need a full ret-conning episode covering the nature of his gift, what the hell he’s been doing with it (especially during the battle of Winterfell), etc.

    I don’t think book-Sansa or book-Arya end up like this, and certainly not book-Jamie.

    In the absence of books, I wonder if the bullets will get leaked or if GRRM will weigh-in on this in a substantive way?
  • LukeLuke Central Illinois
    Anything to do with the Night King/The White Walkers will be completely different in the books.  

    Granted they will be defeated somehow, but I am sure the plotting of it will be way more intricate.  I mean the bullet point is "The others were beaten at Wintefell at great cost to Dany/the Northern forces".  But how all that comes to be just has to be different in the books just by how D&D have completely different characters in certain places as compared to the books.  

    I do think the Kings Landing stuff will actually be alot closer to what the books would be.  Except Dany will go nuts because  Faegon has already captured Kings Landing. 

    I think that Euron likely dies while trying to use his horn on Rhegal and that probably ends up killing the dragon in the process.  

    I also have doubts on if the ending will literally just be "Bran is king"

    Likely the Children of the Forest just won't get written out of the books.  My guess would be the ending is going to involve much more warging/magic/Lord of light stuff that the DD's didn't have time for and were not that interested in telling.  

    I do think it would still be interesting to read because I agree with A.Ron that spoilers don't inherintly ruin a story.  

    Heck some of the best stories are set with framing devices where you know the hero or narrator lives, it's the details that are interesting. 
  • Luke said:
    I do think it would still be interesting to read because I agree with A.Ron that spoilers don't inherintly ruin a story.  

    Heck some of the best stories are set with framing devices where you know the hero or narrator lives, it's the details that are interesting. 
    Chernobyl on HBO is an immediate example of this.  They killed off the main character in the first scene of the series and then go back 2ish years to show the time leading up to that.  Also it's a docu-drama based on true life events so a lot of it's story is already out there and known and it is being made and told at an extremely high level.  Easily the best thing on TV right now in my opinion. 
    Giovannigjames80
  • edited May 20
    The way The Double D's talked in one of the after shows about how they chose Arya to kill The Night King because Jon felt wrong to them makes me think that was deviation from the bullet points.
    telephoneofmadnessGiovanniBloodyTaco
  • CapeGabe said:
    The way The Double D's talked in one of the after shows about how they chose Arya to kill The Night King because Jon felt wrong to them makes me think that was deviation from the bullet points.
    This would make the way people were celebrating Jon at the feast make more sense. The heroes of the battle were Arya and Dany. It's as if the writers just changed who killed the Night King, but not other characters' reactions to that.
    Giovanni
  • LordByLordBy Utah
    I wonder if the grand northern conspiracy helps get Bran crowned in the books, especially in light of a much weaker book-Sansa he may have been their pick presuming Jon is taken out of play one way or another.
  • CapeGabe said:
    The way The Double D's talked in one of the after shows about how they chose Arya to kill The Night King because Jon felt wrong to them makes me think that was deviation from the bullet points.
    There is no Night King in the books (yet), so the likelihood of you being right on this one is 100% :-)
  • Eh, I think Arya (or anyone) specifically killing the night king is probably not a bullet point, but the army of the dead being defeated at winterfeill with the help of the dragons probably is. 
    gjames80
  • Teresa from ConcordTeresa from Concord Concord, California
    Luke said:
    I do think it would still be interesting to read because I agree with A.Ron that spoilers don't inherintly ruin a story.  

    Heck some of the best stories are set with framing devices where you know the hero or narrator lives, it's the details that are interesting. 
    Chernobyl on HBO is an immediate example of this.  They killed off the main character in the first scene of the series and then go back 2ish years to show the time leading up to that.  Also it's a docu-drama based on true life events so a lot of it's story is already out there and known and it is being made and told at an extremely high level.  Easily the best thing on TV right now in my opinion. 
    SPOILER ALERT! Haven’t started this show yet. 
  • Luke said:
    I do think it would still be interesting to read because I agree with A.Ron that spoilers don't inherintly ruin a story.  

    Heck some of the best stories are set with framing devices where you know the hero or narrator lives, it's the details that are interesting. 
    Chernobyl on HBO is an immediate example of this.  They killed off the main character in the first scene of the series and then go back 2ish years to show the time leading up to that.  Also it's a docu-drama based on true life events so a lot of it's story is already out there and known and it is being made and told at an extremely high level.  Easily the best thing on TV right now in my opinion. 
    SPOILER ALERT! Haven’t started this show yet. 
    Spoiler alert- It's a historical event. :D 
    gjames80
  • CeciliaM said:
    Luke said:
    I do think it would still be interesting to read because I agree with A.Ron that spoilers don't inherintly ruin a story.  

    Heck some of the best stories are set with framing devices where you know the hero or narrator lives, it's the details that are interesting. 
    Chernobyl on HBO is an immediate example of this.  They killed off the main character in the first scene of the series and then go back 2ish years to show the time leading up to that.  Also it's a docu-drama based on true life events so a lot of it's story is already out there and known and it is being made and told at an extremely high level.  Easily the best thing on TV right now in my opinion. 
    SPOILER ALERT! Haven’t started this show yet. 
    Spoiler alert- It's a historical event. :D 
    Also, spoiler for literally the first 5 minutes of the show. 
    CeciliaMNoelawookieegjames80
  • CapeGabe said:
    The way The Double D's talked in one of the after shows about how they chose Arya to kill The Night King because Jon felt wrong to them makes me think that was deviation from the bullet points.
    I don't disagree that they changed it, but why would they change it? I remember that after show, but I can't think of any logical reason to actually change it. To change it just to surprise people seems short-sighted.
    All the Chickens
  • Maybe Jon stays dead in the books and they just brought him back in the TV show to keep the mob happy?  That would, at least, explain why the show felt like it didn't know what to do with him.

    not saying that would be satisfying but possible I suppose.
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    rkcrawf said:
    CapeGabe said:
    The way The Double D's talked in one of the after shows about how they chose Arya to kill The Night King because Jon felt wrong to them makes me think that was deviation from the bullet points.
    I don't disagree that they changed it, but why would they change it? I remember that after show, but I can't think of any logical reason to actually change it. To change it just to surprise people seems short-sighted.
    Probably because there isn't going to be a NK to kill in the books, so they aren't changing anything really. 

    The way I read the post episode comments was that they decided a few seasons ago that Arya would kill the NK, because they didnt think it should be Jon getting all the kills and major action hero moments. Because all the viewers expect Jon to kill the NK, but not because of any book bullet point they were given about the NK.
    SanguinePenguin
  • I think the points were definitely in line with what George gave them. But the execution might be different than he would do.  But sadly, I don't think we will ever get to see it.  
    visi0ngjames80
  • GRRM said major characters end up the same.  There are major difference in the minor characters.  
  • edited May 20
    rkcrawf said:
    CapeGabe said:
    The way The Double D's talked in one of the after shows about how they chose Arya to kill The Night King because Jon felt wrong to them makes me think that was deviation from the bullet points.
    I don't disagree that they changed it, but why would they change it? I remember that after show, but I can't think of any logical reason to actually change it. To change it just to surprise people seems short-sighted.
    The reason they said was that everyone expected Jon would be the one to fight him. It sounded to me like they wanted to surprise us. It's happened so many times before where they simply want the viewer to be surprised, often at the expense of good storytelling. 
  • I think a mistake I see in a lot of people’s takes about Jamie is that he’s “evil” none of his actions or motives  when he left Brienne should be considered “evil” 
    Aww_PHuuCk
  • All the ChickensAll the Chickens Birmingham, AL
    gguenot said:
    I think a mistake I see in a lot of people’s takes about Jamie is that he’s “evil” none of his actions or motives  when he left Brienne should be considered “evil” 
    Right. It's not evil or a failing of Jaime's progress as a character for him to go to KL to try to save the city, try to save his sister, and if all of that fails then he knows he will die with his sister like he always wanted.

    No matter how much Jaime has changed, he was never going to be happy with just letting his sister die and take thousands of extra lives with her. He at least had to try, and he failed at no fault of his own. 
    gjames80
  • Teresa from ConcordTeresa from Concord Concord, California
    GRRM said major characters end up the same.  There are major difference in the minor characters.   



    https://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/wxinjjc64az21.jpg?quality=85&strip=info&w=650
  • edited May 21
    Luke said:
    I do think it would still be interesting to read because I agree with A.Ron that spoilers don't inherintly ruin a story.  

    Heck some of the best stories are set with framing devices where you know the hero or narrator lives, it's the details that are interesting. 
    Chernobyl on HBO is an immediate example of this.  They killed off the main character in the first scene of the series and then go back 2ish years to show the time leading up to that.  Also it's a docu-drama based on true life events so a lot of it's story is already out there and known and it is being made and told at an extremely high level.  Easily the best thing on TV right now in my opinion. 
    SPOILER ALERT! Haven’t started this show yet. 
    I apologize @Teresa from Concord I didn't really think of this in light of people who haven't started it yet when I wrote it.  In my mind it is not a spoiler but I can easily see how it could be in some people's eyes, sorry.
  • visi0n said:
    Maybe Jon stays dead in the books and they just brought him back in the TV show to keep the mob happy?  That would, at least, explain why the show felt like it didn't know what to do with him.

    not saying that would be satisfying but possible I suppose.

    The way it’s written is pretty clear that Jon wargs into Ghost right before he dies, so if he doesn’t come back then we’ll get some weird direwolf pov chapters. 

  • The way I read the post episode comments was that they decided a few seasons ago that Arya would kill the NK, because they didnt think it should be Jon getting all the kills and major action hero moments. Because all the viewers expect Jon to kill the NK, but not because of any book bullet point they were given about the NK.
    Makes sense, and that they wanted to feature a female hero in a story that has the two most prominent female characters (Cersei and Daenerys) end up incapable of being hero’s.
  • - Tyrion will be hand to Daenerys and eventually Bran.
    I definitely buy that Tyrion will be hand to Daenerys once they connect in Mareen, but I always figured a fitting end to the story would be Tyrion becoming Lord of Casterly Rock.

    - Jon and Daenerys fall in love before finding out they’re blood related.
    Seems fitting the story would eventually unite Ice with Fire.  It would be interesting to see if these characters truly fall in love, or if it’s simply a business partnership.  The books were heavy on romance for Daenerys, and there was Ygritte and Jon, so it’s not unprecedented to subject these characters to love.  While incest is not a problem for Targaryens, im guessing Jon wouldn’t be cool with it.
  • Teresa from ConcordTeresa from Concord Concord, California
    Luke said:
    I do think it would still be interesting to read because I agree with A.Ron that spoilers don't inherintly ruin a story.  

    Heck some of the best stories are set with framing devices where you know the hero or narrator lives, it's the details that are interesting. 
    Chernobyl on HBO is an immediate example of this.  They killed off the main character in the first scene of the series and then go back 2ish years to show the time leading up to that.  Also it's a docu-drama based on true life events so a lot of it's story is already out there and known and it is being made and told at an extremely high level.  Easily the best thing on TV right now in my opinion. 
    SPOILER ALERT! Haven’t started this show yet. 
    I apologize @Teresa from Concord I didn't really think of this in light of people who haven't started it yet when I wrote it.  In my mind it is not a spoiler but I can easily see how it could be in some people's eyes, sorry.
    No apology needed. I was joking - mostly. I do know the history but not the specifics of individual people. 
    awookiee
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