A Teachable Moment: Pride Month

A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
edited June 2 in General
First, a preamble. To all our LGBT friends, I don't recommend further reading, you're not going to learn anything new, and it's hurtful. Second, Rule #1 is still a thing. As the Apostle Paul said, "return dickishness to dickishness to no one." I'll be cleaning up comments without any heat or malice that fall short of that mark.

So, we switched up our logo for Pride Month to show our solidarity and support for the queer community.  We got some shit for it, like you do, and we blocked and moved on, like we do, but one individual took exception to this treatment and further took the time to email us. Names removed because I don't wish this fellow anything but empathy, education, and happiness, because he sounds like he's in pain and is bewildered as to the source. Yet this happens enough that I want to just point people at this thread rather than respond individually, because I really value my waffle time (this will make sense in context). Maybe somebody will have an "aha" moment. Maybe I'll just save a little bit of waffle time in the future.

His initial comment on the social media post was along the lines of "Nice virtue signaling. I didn't sign up for this." This was deleted and he was blocked.

From: Anonymous
To: A.Ron
Message:
I just found myself blocked from the Instagram page despite being a three year Club supporter. 

Please either unban me (and we can discuss your reasons for doing so), or kindly refund my recent subscription and we can part ways. 

What won’t happen is my continuing as a Club supporter and putting up with unannounced banning on Bald Move platforms. 
CretanBullAlkaid13ChinaskiMarciMurderbearrkcrawfFlukesladylarsenbrewsevelt
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Comments

  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    From: A.Ron
    To: Anonymous
    Message:
    Anonymous, we've unblocked you. But man, it was shitty to post what you posted on our [social media] feed. We're not some faceless global corporation, nor is our support for queer causes insincere, and as a 3 year club supporter you surely must know this. When you do this "virtue signaling" stuff all it does is cast a pall on what we're doing; showing love to people that get shit on far too often. You farted in a room full of people trying to smell the flowers, and were shown the door accordingly, as we can't tell long time supporters from some random jackasses we picked up during GoT season. 

    Maybe it was a joke, or you were being ironic, or perhaps you overestimated the appeal of farts in this context. I don't think people should be cast out of society for a misstep here or there, we all learn other perspectives as we go. I've certainly been in your shoes more than a few times in my past. On the other hand, if this is ground you want to fight on, I can certainly refund your latest renewal and send you on your way. 

    CretanBulldarwinfeeshyladylarsen
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    From: Anonymous
    To: A.Ron
    Message: 
    Can you remind me what I said? My recollection was I said “this isn’t what I signed up for,” or something to that effect. If I said something different than this, please remind me. I may have even said something over the line. If my memory is correct, however, a block seems a little over the top. 

    From my perspective as a traditional Catholic, the pride month stuff is weaponized anti-Catholicism. It’s gotten so political that it’s become close to seeing a Klan hood for a black person, a Swastika for a Jewish person, or an old WW2 propaganda cartoon for a Japanese person. It’s an expression of in your face belligerence to a persecuted religious minority, Traditional Catholics. We are perhaps 1 percent of the population (fewer than gays). 

    That might sound like ridiculous comparisons to you, but try being called a hateful bigot for a month just for being a traditional Catholic who believes marriage is between one man and one woman, for life, and ordered toward procreation. That was what most humans believed as recently as a decade ago, and now for simply continuing to believe that we’re persecuted legally and culturally. 

    Nonetheless, it’s your sandbox. I don’t have to comment on this in the future, and we can agree to disagree. But if you can’t stand the idea of someone who disagrees with you supporting your good podcast work, let’s refund and depart. 
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    From: A.Ron
    To: Anonymous
    Message:
    Yeah man, your comparison is over the top ridiculous. Because you're not getting lynched or gassed or rounded up and put in camps. You are literally complaining about having your feelings hurt for your beliefs. Gay people have been lynched in both of our lifetimes. Gay people get sent to camps for conversation therapy. What the fuck, man?

    Here's how the standard you've set for being able to withstand disagreement works for me online:  I can show up to your mass with a bullhorn and shout God's not real. But I'll just do it once! Btw, there are a lot of atheists in the world and in reality they're going to do it once each, so from your perspective it's going to happen every mass you hold. Oh! And by once I mean I'm going to do it once at *your* church.  I'll probably do it in a few dozen churches over the next several years. Because let's be honest, how many times have you shit on the concept of pride month so far? And if you ignore me, I win the discourse, if you engage me I'll remind you that atheists are the really oppressed population, and the ones that are willing to stand up for their beliefs in public are 0.5 percent of the population, so you're the real bigot. 

    This is taking away from me making waffles with my family. I'm sorry you feel this way, truly. Expect your refund within the week.
    CretanBullMarciDrCynPizNoelChinaskiladylarsen
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    From: Anonymous
    To: A.Ron
    Message: 
    I don’t mean to take time away from your family, but can you tell me how “this isn’t what I signed up for” is remotely close to barging into Mass with a bullhorn and disrupting it?

    The former is simply saying this is a truth in advertising complaint. Said politely. 

    As for lynching, I obviously don’t defend that. Do you defend traditional Christians losing their jobs, getting shut down by governments, getting sued, or getting punched on the street for holding the beliefs they hold? I’m sure you don’t. But let’s not pretend being traditional is costless these days. It’s likely much harder in 2019 to be a traditional Catholic than a homosexual.

    But I guess you’ve made your choice you’d rather not have me as a supporter. I’m truly sorry to hear that, and I wish you well. 

    BTW, there are a lot more atheists than Traditional Catholics. 
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    edited June 2
    From: A.Ron
    To: Anonymous
    Message:
    *me with my bullhorn, as I'm being drug out by  the cops*:  "I don't mean to disrupt your service, but can you for the 1,000th time patiently explain to me, because I've never bothered to do any research on what the other side believes or what they go through, why what I'm doing is obnoxious and wrong? This isn't even a particularly loud bullhorn! I was merely politely stating my sincerely held personal belief. Engage with my argument!  ENGAGE WITH MY--"

    Cheer up, dude. 1 Peter 4:12-19. Your reward lies on heaven, not here on Earth.
    CretanBullladylarsenmwspiak
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    edited June 2
    From: Anonymous
    To: A.Ron
    Message:
    I enjoy your podcasts very much and wish you a good day. In happier times, these things would not divide us. Social media has made rogues of us all. It’s been a cancer to our common discourse. 
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    edited June 2
    And he can have the last word. Because apparently, he thinks he can say stuff like this and it not be divisive on the face of it. To which I would reply: John 11:35 

    One final reminder, Rule #1 is in force. Don't be a dick. Or as Jesus would say, turn the other cheek.
    CretanBullDrCynPizMrXFlukesladylarsen
  • When confronted with homophobia, turn the other cheek. I know the intent of the message is coming from a good place, however it seemed like that conversation ended on a “agree to disagree” and, personally, I’m tired of people hiding behind their religion to promote intolerance.
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    To be clear, this ended with him being re-blocked and thrown out of the Club. Maybe you'd prefer the bouncers to rough him up on the way out, but those aren't the rules this Club runs on, nor do I as a former conservative Christian feel like that's a particularly effective strategy. This is a teachable moment, not a two minute hate session.
    gguenot
  • I get it, and no, I don’t promote violence towards people I disagree with. It wasn’t clear that he was reblocked— I thought he should have been if he wasn’t. And if you decided not to, I wouldn’t have made an issue of it. I thought since this was posted for discussion I’d do some discussioning. Not telling you how to run the biz by any means
  • CretanBullCretanBull Toronto
    I don't want to distract from the excellent points being made here with a pedantic one, but 9/10 the use of the term "virtue signaling" drives me crazy.  It's meant to refer to empty gestures made towards a cause in order to share in the social benefits of being associated with that cause, but it's most often used to dismiss someone's sincere concerns.  In this case, your decision cost you $50...that's not a virtue signal, that's putting your money where your mouth is.  The ultimate irony, is that most of the time people who make accusations of virtue signalling are making virtue signals of their own by doing so.

    gguenotMarciDrCynPizcdriveFlukesblacksunrise7
  • FreddyFreddy Denton, Texas
    edited June 2
    I love the Catholic family (drinking Jameson at a wake Irish-Catholic at that) I'm close friends with, and we have a very simple, unspoken arrangement: they don't ever comment on my atheism or try to convert me, and I don't ever say "The Catholic Church might as we be called Boy Raping Incorporated" in front of them.

    That being said, anyone who brings up their religion when arguing should start by saying "now supposing we are the same religion..."
    A_Ron_HubbardDrCynPizNoelChinaskicdriveMrXFlukesladylarsenblacksunrise7
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    gguenot said:
    I get it, and no, I don’t promote violence towards people I disagree with. It wasn’t clear that he was reblocked— I thought he should have been if he wasn’t. And if you decided not to, I wouldn’t have made an issue of it. I thought since this was posted for discussion I’d do some discussioning. Not telling you how to run the biz by any means
    It's cool, just discussing back. ❤️

    I realize I must come off as like such a rube or an idiot for engaging with people with these views, especially in light of the real pain it causes people. But shit, a lot of people did it for me, and getting reproved by cool people I admired was not a small part of me pulling my head from my ass. Maybe ten years from now one of these guys will return the favor.
    gguenotbazjensterMarci
  • OldGriswoldOldGriswold Brooklyn
    I'm all for celebrating pride. Not sure he was that much of a dick afterward than just ignorant, intentionally (clearly to me, comparing Catholicism to the Holocaust or is ridiculous) or otherwise.  Seemed like more of a rules 11 and 12 to me by that stage though. I liked that forum someone a while ago linked that was much more specific about things that were established nogos (something like you can support the president, but saying children being separated from parents is a morally justified immigration strategy will get you banned).

    I empathize, as I think you do, as it should be clearer by now that all "I feel targeted" isn't the same as "my oppression is as bad as theirs".  People's feelings are their feelings, and emotions aren't always backed up by logic.  It can be hard for me, talking with a trump supporter or a misogynist or whatever, to have empathy in the face of a lack of empathy, but I always try and each time I get a little bit better at it, and maybe one day good enough to have a safe and vulnerable conversation where we both make progress.

    Just this weekend I had a small get together for my son's second birthday and one of the dad's proudly mentioned to me how he'd never changed a nappy.  Several years ago I'd have probably just said "that's fucked up" but instead this time I talked about why I am a more active participant and how we share parenting duties, how I think it will have an impact on us raising a man, how it is another way to care for my son and respect my wife etc.  I didn't focus on negatives of not doing, just on positive of doing.  He didn't necessarily agree but he didn't try and laugh it off or hit me with "you're whipped", so I hope he found time to reflect. Education on open mindedness cannot be drilled into someone, nor can minds be changed by "you're an idiot", I think.
    A_Ron_HubbardMarciDrCynPizbazjensterChinaskiDJ_150Flukesladylarsen
  • MichelleMichelle California
    I know it shouldn't, but it *always* surprises me when I see blatant homophobia/intolerance of any kind toward any minority group.  It sickens me that people still believe that it's even remotely okay to insult those different than them and/or whose lives aren't lived to the standard that their religion states they should be.  They hide behind their bibles and their keyboards and throw out words that hurt hearts and minds.  We are one human race - can't we live by the very basic idea that love is love, and love one another and uplift one another *no matter what*?  

    @A_Ron_Hubbard I appreciate that you, @Jim, and @Cecily strive to cultivate a community that is built on that principle.  Personally, I liked the logo change and even suggested that it would look great on a tank and/or tee in the merch shop. :smile: :heart:
    CretanBullA_Ron_HubbardgguenotAlkaid13DrCynPizbazjensterNoelChinaskirkcrawfTravisand 4 others.
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    Freddy said:
    I love the Catholic family (drinking Jameson at a wake Irish-Catholic at that) I'm close friends with, and we have a very simple, unspoken arrangement: they don't ever comment on my atheism or try to convert me, and I don't ever say "The Catholic Church might as we be called Boy Raping Incorporated" in front of them. 
    Just so you all don't think I'm made of stone,  the first three drafts I worked on went straight for that particular jugular, haha. This particular brand of chutzpah, I swear! I wonder how many emails the Pope has recieived from this guy? "This isn't what I signed up for, your holiness."

    Matthew 7:5, man! 
    Freddy
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    Michelle said:
    I know it shouldn't, but it *always* surprises me when I see blatant homophobia/intolerance of any kind toward any minority group.  It sickens me that people still believe that it's even remotely okay to insult those different than them and/or whose lives aren't lived to the standard that their religion states they should be.  They hide behind their bibles and their keyboards and throw out words that hurt hearts and minds.  We are one human race - can't we live by the very basic idea that love is love, and love one another and uplift one another *no matter what*?  

    @A_Ron_Hubbard I appreciate that you, @Jim, and @Cecily strive to cultivate a community that is built on that principle.  Personally, I liked the logo change and even suggested that it would look great on a tank and/or tee in the merch shop. :smile: :heart:
    If we did that, the profits would 100% go to some equality project. I wouldn't mind having a nice tri-blend for the pride parade and parade here in Cincy, to tell the truth.

    MichelleNoelladylarsenblacksunrise7
  • OldGriswoldOldGriswold Brooklyn
    One more comment/thought

    I recognize both the privilege and responsibility of being both male and white, affords me in terms of being able to sit back and not rip out someone's eyeballs.  When it's closer to home (like when someone joked to my kid that he didn't have a soul because he is a redhead) I find it a lot harder to take a conciliatory tone.
  • Alkaid13Alkaid13 Georgia
    I don’t fucking understand these people; if that person had come on here and said “well I’m quitting Bald Move because my religion tells me that white people are the superior race and you cover shows with prominent actors of color” they’d (rightfully) be called out for being a racist. You don’t get a pass for racism just because “your religious beliefs” happen to contain racist iconography and teachings; it’s entirely your choice to believe in that racist religion which de facto makes you a racist. Also, guess what, a whole lot of Christians, in this very country used their religion to promote racism and slavery not very long ago!

    You shouldn’t get a pass for being a homophobe for your religion either. If your religion contains teachings against LGBT people having the right to marry and love who they want, and you devoutly believe in those teachings, you’re a homophobe. It’s the same fucking principle, religious beliefs aren’t a “get out of jail free” card for being an unreasonable asshole. 

    Because here’s the thing people, we’re not forcing you to change your mind. I’d really love it if you let all that hate in your hearts go and accepted people for who they are and I think everyone would be better off that way. But if you want to continue to hate minorities, or LGBT people, or women/men, or whoever the fuck for whatever religious or non religious reason in the comfort of your own home then go right the fuck ahead. Likewise, I won’t barge into your house, tell you your religion is fake, call you a rube and a sucker, and then prop my feet up on your couch expecting you to welcome me over.

    If not being able to loudly announce how you really just hate certain types of people based on their lifestyles seems unreasonable and doesn’t sit well with you, maybe you’re the unreasonable one here. 
    MarciCretanBullMichelleNoelTravisladylarsenblacksunrise7
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    One more comment/thought

    I recognize both the privilege and responsibility of being both male and white, affords me in terms of being able to sit back and not rip out someone's eyeballs.  When it's closer to home (like when someone joked to my kid that he didn't have a soul because he is a redhead) I find it a lot harder to take a conciliatory tone.
    Right on. Which is why I feel like we should bear the brunt of the challenging and outreach where we can. I've been thinking about this a lot lately, how to setup a pipeline to de-radicalize people and then once they are no longer radioactive, point them towards minority voices for further information. 
    OldGriswoldAlkaid13Travisblacksunrise7
  • Alkaid13Alkaid13 Georgia
    By the way @A_Ron_Hubbard you deserve a lot of applause for the amount of patience you had in that conversation. I’d have lost my mind on that guy after that second email because I cannot even begin to deal with this shit anymore. Obviously losing my shit on someone for being a homophobe isn’t changing minds though so I have a lot of respect for people who can talk this stuff over calmly in an attempt to educate people. 
    MarciTravisblacksunrise7
  • Alkaid13Alkaid13 Georgia
    https://www.vox.com/2016/11/23/13708996/argue-better-science

    I actually think this article is pretty spot on regarding how to argue with people in a productive way that’s not just shouting at each other, I just personally lack the temperament to implement it properly. 
  • JoshTheBlackJoshTheBlack Atlanta, GA
    I feel like the comment that started all of this was intentionally baiting the exact response it received.  If you have legitimate trouble reconciling your religion with other people's lifestyle, especially as a CHRISTIAN religion, the response should be love and concern.  Not sarcasm.  

    I think starting the conversation with sarcasm warrants the ban.  When the individual reached out in the first e-mail, he/she (henceforth he, as I don't know the gender) seemed pretty angry.  Running a business like Bald Move requires a fair amount of putting up with peoples garbage.  Kudo's for handling it with measure.
    JoshuaHeter
  • WonderedObjectWonderedObject SAN Francisco, CA
    I love that fart analogy. I’m stealing that.

    Good on you Mr Hubbard. Hope the waffles turned out great. 
  • As a psychotherapist and certified sex therapist, I can tell you that there are deep seated reasons why some folks are severely 'triggered' by the idea of same-gender relationships.  Let's say you've had erotic fantasies or attractions (even fleeting) towards the same gender at some point in your life.  Add to that the shame and judgement you learned as a result of long-time religious dogma.  What do you get? Homophobia.  I have a great deal of empathy towards folks who are locked in a prison such as this.  That said, thank you @A_Ron_Hubbard @Jim @Cecily for modeling healthy tolerance of difference...It's folks like you who make the world a better place.
    CretanBullTravis
  • OldGriswoldOldGriswold Brooklyn
    I feel like the comment that started all of this was intentionally baiting the exact response it received.  If you have legitimate trouble reconciling your religion with other people's lifestyle, especially as a CHRISTIAN religion, the response should be love and concern.  Not sarcasm.  

    I think starting the conversation with sarcasm warrants the ban.  When the individual reached out in the first e-mail, he/she (henceforth he, as I don't know the gender) seemed pretty angry.  Running a business like Bald Move requires a fair amount of putting up with peoples garbage.  Kudo's for handling it with measure.
    If in doubt I just use "they"
    ladylarsen
  • DeeDee Adelaide
    Social media has made so many people think the world is just hanging out to hear their shitty opinions. 
    MarcibazjensterNoelDummyblacksunrise7
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Maybe it's not "cool" to be religious, but I'd like to meet one person who broke their parents' hearts because they were a traditional Catholic.
    A_Ron_HubbardCretanBullTravisFlukesladylarsenhisdudeness915OldGriswoldblacksunrise7
  • amyja89amyja89 Oxford, England
    edited June 2
    Thanks for being an exemplary ally @A_Ron_Hubbard.

    I get why some people prefer to take the ‘ignore them and don’t give them a response’ route, but as a gay person in this modern social media age of being open to pretty much any bigoted opinion there is, I find that I start to lack the energy to fight back and stand up for myself. (And I say myself because as far as I’m concerned, if a person hates homosexuality, then they hate me, no qualifiers, no exceptions, no grey areas.)

    I’m not saying that what A Ron did has changed anything for this guy, but every time a straight white dude calls another (I’m presuming) straight white dude out on their ignorance, it makes so much more of an impact than me saying it from the gay side of the fence.

    To these kinds of people, a retaliatory response from a member of the community they disregard is just as insignificant to them as complete silence. It’s the voices of the people who are just like them who have even a tiny chance of making a dent in their asshole ideologies.

    So thanks mate. And happy Pride month everyone. <3
    NoelMarciCretanBullJoshTheBlackA_Ron_HubbardgguenotcdriveTravisFlukesadobo1148and 1 other.
  • JoshuaHeterJoshuaHeter Omaha, NE
    edited June 2
    JaimieT said:
    Maybe it's not "cool" to be religious, but I'd like to meet one person who broke their parents' hearts because they were a traditional Catholic.

    ... how many evangelicals do you know? :smiley:
    blacksunrise7
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