Woman's World Cup 2019

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  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    cdrive said:
    The ‘92 Dream Team beat Angola 116 to 48 in their first game as “The Dream Team.” At the end they were still doing shit like bouncing alley oops to themselves off the glass, hot dogging and laughing about all the globetrotter shit they were trying while decimating this team. They were heralded.  Just throwing that take out there for some perspective. I think if the US Men’s Soccer Team wasn’t a heaping pile of dog shit and were instead this dominant, it wouldn’t surprise me if the narrative was a little different (reference point USA Men’s Basketball) 
    I can't speak for all of the reaction, but I really don't think the gender of the athletes has anything to do with the reaction.  Are there misogynists piling on? Yeah, probably - but that's not the root of the reaction at all.  

    Oh yeah man, I don't mean to be a drag.  It's not like I'm saying "everyone criticizing them is a misogynist  or a bigot.  Just throwing out a little food for thought.  But yeah I understand the "act like you been there" / win with grace thing.  
    CretanBull
  • cdrive said:
    The ‘92 Dream Team beat Angola 116 to 48 in their first game as “The Dream Team.” At the end they were still doing shit like bouncing alley oops to themselves off the glass, hot dogging and laughing about all the globetrotter shit they were trying while decimating this team. They were heralded.  Just throwing that take out there for some perspective. I think if the US Men’s Soccer Team wasn’t a heaping pile of dog shit and were instead this dominant, it wouldn’t surprise me if the narrative was a little different (reference point USA Men’s Basketball) 
    I can't speak for all of the reaction, but I really don't think the gender of the athletes has anything to do with the reaction.  Are there misogynists piling on? Yeah, probably - but that's not the root of the reaction at all.  As I said, the USA women's team has a horrible reputation for unsportsmanlike behaviour.  If there's any criticism for the size of the backlash, they might be able to claim that it's being over blown because they're already hated and people were just looking for a reason to attack them and/or others are jealous of their success (there's probably truth to both of those claims).

    I think that there's just a culture in sports, the unwritten rules.  As I mentioned above, if a hockey player acted the way Rapinoe did after scoring the 8th or 9th goals, they'd get taken out with a dirty hit, or just outright jumped.  In baseball, if you're up 15-0 and hit a homerun, you don't stand at home plate and watch the ball sail out of the stadium - you put your head down and run the bases.

    Here's Canada's World Jr hockey team demolishing Denmark 14-0.  Watch how muted the celebrations get as the score gets run up.  The last 3-4 goals aren't even celebrated at all.  I absolutely guarantee if a the player who scored the 8th or 9th goal for Canada acted the way Rapinoe did, he'd never play for Canada again.





    Plus they don't want to get called out by Grapes on TV.  :)
    CretanBull
  • cdrive said:
    The ‘92 Dream Team beat Angola 116 to 48 in their first game as “The Dream Team.” At the end they were still doing shit like bouncing alley oops to themselves off the glass, hot dogging and laughing about all the globetrotter shit they were trying while decimating this team. They were heralded.  Just throwing that take out there for some perspective. I think if the US Men’s Soccer Team wasn’t a heaping pile of dog shit and were instead this dominant, it wouldn’t surprise me if the narrative was a little different (reference point USA Men’s Basketball) 
    This isn't true. Just one example:


    There were a lot of stories about the "ugly Americans," and Barkley complained incessantly about the way the media talked about them.



    CretanBullOldGriswold
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    cdrive said:
    The ‘92 Dream Team beat Angola 116 to 48 in their first game as “The Dream Team.” At the end they were still doing shit like bouncing alley oops to themselves off the glass, hot dogging and laughing about all the globetrotter shit they were trying while decimating this team. They were heralded.  Just throwing that take out there for some perspective. I think if the US Men’s Soccer Team wasn’t a heaping pile of dog shit and were instead this dominant, it wouldn’t surprise me if the narrative was a little different (reference point USA Men’s Basketball) 
    This isn't true. Just one example:


    There were a lot of stories about the "ugly Americans," and Barkley complained incessantly about the way the media talked about them.



    Dude it’s on YouTube and basketballreference.com 
    CretanBull
  • cdrive said:
    cdrive said:
    The ‘92 Dream Team beat Angola 116 to 48 in their first game as “The Dream Team.” At the end they were still doing shit like bouncing alley oops to themselves off the glass, hot dogging and laughing about all the globetrotter shit they were trying while decimating this team. They were heralded.  Just throwing that take out there for some perspective. I think if the US Men’s Soccer Team wasn’t a heaping pile of dog shit and were instead this dominant, it wouldn’t surprise me if the narrative was a little different (reference point USA Men’s Basketball) 
    This isn't true. Just one example:


    There were a lot of stories about the "ugly Americans," and Barkley complained incessantly about the way the media talked about them.



    Dude it’s on YouTube and basketballreference.com 
    "Dude" your claim was that they were heralded and not criticized. The story above is from 1992 and proves that there were plenty of critics. I dont know what is the relevance that basketball reference has the box score. I wasnt debating whether the us destroyed Angola,  but whether they were universally heralded for it like you claim.
  • MrXMrX CO
    edited June 13
    Man you Canadians do get salty over the USWNT.  :p

    Deadspin with the sweet burn:

    "Considering Canada haven’t scored 13 goals in their last three World Cups combined, and have only ever made it out of the group stage at this tournament twice, it’s no surprise Kyle and her compatriots have never thought about how they might react were they capable of that sort of thing on the game’s biggest stage."

    https://deadspin.com/the-uswnts-blowout-of-thailand-inspires-indignant-pearl-1835444881
    cdrivetom_gFreddyDoubleA_RonNoel
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    edited June 13
    cdrive said:
    cdrive said:
    The ‘92 Dream Team beat Angola 116 to 48 in their first game as “The Dream Team.” At the end they were still doing shit like bouncing alley oops to themselves off the glass, hot dogging and laughing about all the globetrotter shit they were trying while decimating this team. They were heralded.  Just throwing that take out there for some perspective. I think if the US Men’s Soccer Team wasn’t a heaping pile of dog shit and were instead this dominant, it wouldn’t surprise me if the narrative was a little different (reference point USA Men’s Basketball) 
    This isn't true. Just one example:


    There were a lot of stories about the "ugly Americans," and Barkley complained incessantly about the way the media talked about them.



    Dude it’s on YouTube and basketballreference.com 
    "Dude" your claim was that they were heralded and not criticized. The story above is from 1992 and proves that there were plenty of critics. I dont know what is the relevance that basketball reference has the box score. I wasnt debating whether the us destroyed Angola,  but whether they were universally heralded for it like you claim.
    Oh ok I thought you were debating the box score, or like where I can show you the time stamp in the video when Barkley threw it to himself off the backboard late in that game and was cracking up about it.  You show me a Baltimore Sun article and I can show you cartoon character shirts made up of the team and McDonald's promotionals and video of Barkley walking around on Las Ramblas every night swarmed by fans like he's a Beatle.  I'm old enough to remember the original Dream Team.  We treated them like Gods.  It was like Avengers End Game.  

    edit: Also true - you can't contest USMNT is a heaping pile of dog shit. 
  • Yeah, lots of people celebrated the dream team and lots of people criticized them for poor sportsmanship. Much like with the  uswnt.The story has a quote about how Barkley hated the media for all the criticism.
  • JoshuaHeterJoshuaHeter Omaha, NE
    In a tournament in which win differential is a material factor, it is silly to criticize a team for scoring as much as possible in an individual game.

    That said, it is just as silly to pretend like the celebrations later in the U.S. vs. Thailand game weren’t in poor taste. It is equally as silly to suggest that men’s teams aren’t often criticized for this type of thing. 
    CretanBull
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    edited June 13
    Silly to criticize a team scoring as much as possible when point differential matters.  - Yes.  Happened just now to USWNT at a huge clip.  Didn't happen to USMBT at a huge clip despite no point differential component to Olympics or FIBA.  There was more criticism about Magic playing HIV positive.

    Silly to act like celebrations were not in poor taste.  Yes, silly to dismiss this criticism.  It's fair criticism. I think the player's counter is somewhat fair too.  These players have been dreaming about the World Cup their entire lives since they were little girls.  Again the clip, the ratio of criticism against USWNT compared to USMBT frequently handling the ball like the Globetrotters when they're up 30...is it equal?

    Just for more context about weighing the public narrative of male athletes vs women athletes, the original Dream Team up until current USMBT Dream Teams never played a tournament while in the middle of a gender discrimination lawsuit like these ladies are doing right now.  Right now that team is wearing the Stars and Stripes on their jersey and are also suing the United States Soccer Federation for institutionalized gender discrimination affecting their pay and workplace.   
  • MrX said:
    Man you Canadians do get salty over the USWNT.  :p

    Deadspin with the sweet burn:

    "Considering Canada haven’t scored 13 goals in their last three World Cups combined, and have only ever made it out of the group stage at this tournament twice, it’s no surprise Kyle and her compatriots have never thought about how they might react were they capable of that sort of thing on the game’s biggest stage."

    https://deadspin.com/the-uswnts-blowout-of-thailand-inspires-indignant-pearl-1835444881
    Americans get salty over valid criticisms - Kyle has literally received death threats for her comments.
  • I think what might be missing from some people's perspective who are just reacting to this story and don't really follow women's soccer is the fact that the USWNT is absolutely hated within the soccer community.  They can rightfully claim that people are jealous of their success - no doubt that plays a part in this - but it also has to be understood that the reaction didn't take place in a vacuum.  This team has had a horrible reputation for at least 20 years (about as long as I've following women's soccer).  There's a long, long history of poor sportsmanship, being poor losers and worse winners.  When Abby Wambach was called out for constantly badgering and intimidating the refs, she didn't deny it her reaction was "whatever it takes to win".  Maybe you admire her tenacity, but the rest of the world looks at the #1 team in the world doing everything they can to further stack the deck in their favour as a lack of class.

    America plays Chile next, they're another bad team.  If they pull the same stuff again, I'd expect someone like Alex Morgan to get taken out hard - like a straight red, cleats up tackle that could take her out of the tournament.
    cdriveFlukes
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    edited June 13
     When Abby Wambach was called out for constantly badgering and intimidating the refs, she didn't deny it her reaction was "whatever it takes to win".  Maybe you admire her tenacity, but the rest of the world looks at the #1 team in the world doing everything they can to further stack the deck in their favour as a lack of class.

    I don't follow soccer as hardcore as you but you must be talking about this:

    Head Games: In the 2012 Olympic semi-final against host Canada, one of the best soccer matches you will ever see, Wambach took advantage of a rarely called rule that states a goalkeeper can’t hold a ball for more than six seconds. So every time Canadian ‘keeper Erin McLeod snagged a shot or corralled a corner, Wambach started counting. Loudly. ONE. TWO. THREE. FOUR… sometimes as high as 12 or 13. And in doing so, she got into the head of Christiana Pedersen, badgering the ref until she called a delay of game foul on McLeod. That led to a free kick which led to a handball in the box which led to the crucial game-tying PK (taken by Wambach, of course) which helped lead to the win.

    https://www.dirtysouthsoccer.com/2015/12/16/10262824/abby-wambach-uswnt-final-game-china-victory-tour

    I get it.  Like I hate how Draymond Green has to scream "AND ONE!" at the ref every freaking time he scores in the paint.
    CretanBull
  • MrX said:
    Man you Canadians do get salty over the USWNT.  :p

    Deadspin with the sweet burn:

    "Considering Canada haven’t scored 13 goals in their last three World Cups combined, and have only ever made it out of the group stage at this tournament twice, it’s no surprise Kyle and her compatriots have never thought about how they might react were they capable of that sort of thing on the game’s biggest stage."

    https://deadspin.com/the-uswnts-blowout-of-thailand-inspires-indignant-pearl-1835444881

    Countries with functioning governments think they are hot shit.

    cdriveMrXCretanBullCeciliaMNoel
  • FreddyFreddy Denton, Texas
    FlukesMrXCretanBullCeciliaMNoel
  • cdrive said:
     When Abby Wambach was called out for constantly badgering and intimidating the refs, she didn't deny it her reaction was "whatever it takes to win".  Maybe you admire her tenacity, but the rest of the world looks at the #1 team in the world doing everything they can to further stack the deck in their favour as a lack of class.

    I don't follow soccer as hardcore as you but you must be talking about this:

    Head Games: In the 2012 Olympic semi-final against host Canada, one of the best soccer matches you will ever see, Wambach took advantage of a rarely called rule that states a goalkeeper can’t hold a ball for more than six seconds. So every time Canadian ‘keeper Erin McLeod snagged a shot or corralled a corner, Wambach started counting. Loudly. ONE. TWO. THREE. FOUR… sometimes as high as 12 or 13. And in doing so, she got into the head of Christiana Pedersen, badgering the ref until she called a delay of game foul on McLeod. That led to a free kick which led to a handball in the box which led to the crucial game-tying PK (taken by Wambach, of course) which helped lead to the win.

    https://www.dirtysouthsoccer.com/2015/12/16/10262824/abby-wambach-uswnt-final-game-china-victory-tour

    I get it.  Like I hate how Draymond Green has to scream "AND ONE!" at the ref every freaking time he scores in the paint.
    This is still and incredibly sore spot for me.  Not only was she counting out each second, but she'd been hounding the ref all game.  Wambach was the biggest player in the game, one of the top players ever (many would argue best ever, and they'd have a valid case) and the ref was a gym teacher.  She got intimidated.  When it comes to time wasting, its almost never called because the ref will give you a warning first.  In this case the ref skipped the warning and went right to a foul call.  On the free-kick that resulted from the foul call, a handball was awarded - and that was a BS call too.  Wambach badgered her way into a BS call, then intimidated the ref into awarding a PK.

    As a Canadian, I'm still bitter about this...but these things happen all the time when the USWNT is involved.  The maddening thing to me is that they aren't a scrappy underdog team doing whatever it takes to get ahead.  They're the clear cut #1 team in the world, then 2nd best team might not even be half as good, and they still do this crap.
  • I’m not really a follower of soccer. I’ve seen clips of some pretty spectacular acting in attempts to draw a penalty, so spectacular acting in celebration seems on-brand?

    I will say that what I’ve seen of the celebrations this match seem over the top and should be reigned in, and from what I’ve seen the criticism of the celebrations also appears over the top and should be reigned in.

    I know records were broken in this match, for both women’s and overall, and celebrating a new record would be more understandable than celebrating every goal of such a crushing defeat. That’s just an observation. If someone breaks a home run record or a lifetime scoring record or an scoring record for a single game, etc., in most sports there is some hoopla.

    In defense of the US Women’s team generally:
    They probably feel like disrespected underdogs more than they should because of their long legal battle for fair pay, etc., that’s bound to affect their mentality.

    Nevertheless, they should really tone it down going forward.
    cdrive
  • Why are there teams that are so poorly matched in the tournament? 
  • OldGriswoldOldGriswold Brooklyn
    edited June 15
    I really have a hard time with the messaging that this is a sexist criticism.  I'm sure there are sexists complaints, and I'm not saying in any way shape of form that they are valid reasons, but here's my reasons, to hopefully give some context to my comments earlier.

    I'm from the UK. Soccer (football) is a BIG deal.  So is the sense that you should be sporting to the other side.  People in the UK get pissed off if someone doesn't kick the ball out after an injury.  Or if a side stops the game, the bounce-up gets kicked back to their keeper.  Uproar has happened from a player not shaking another's hand for goodness sake. It isn't about gender norms but soccer norms.  Doing what is right doesn't mean win at all costs and fuck the other side.

    Where I see this home wrong is that the other side were not respected.  As sportspeople, competitors, or humans.  They were crying their eyes out at the end of the game.  It wasn't because they were beaten, it wasn't because they were embarrassed or outclassed.  It was because a team who are far and away better than them in all areas, with more resources, more training, more experience and more skill made sure the world knew it.

    For those of you who think it's okay because it's their dream, what about the Thai dream? I'm not clear on whether they're all pros or whether like the Andorran men's team they are part timers, teachers etc?  Humility doesn't mean dropping down to 10% from 110%.  Perspective is important.

    I'll leave you with this, as an example of just being mean:



    Well done he's 13.
  • CeciliaM said:
    Why are there teams that are so poorly matched in the tournament? 

    World Cup qualifying is done on a region by regional basis.  A total of 24 teams qualify for the World Cup, but those 24 seats are allotted by region and not overall ranking.  For example, Europe might get to send 5 teams to the World Cup and Asia might get to send 2.  Even if the 6th best team from Europe is ranked 20 places higher than the best team from Asia, they still don't make it because Europe only gets to send 5 teams.

    On top of that, competitive women's soccer is relative new sport in many countries so the disparity in the rankings is huge.  In men's soccer, the overall difference in quality between the top 10 teams or so is relatively low - like if the 7th ranked team beat the 1st ranked team it wouldn't be shocking.  If that happened in women's soccer it would be a huge upset.  Once you get past the top small handful of teams, the drop-off in talent is sharp. 

    If betting odds can be seen as a reflection of expert evaluations of teams...America is ranked #1 in the world and their gambling odds of winning the World Cup are 1:2, you have to bet $2 to win $1.  So if you bet $10,000 on a US tournament win, you'd only win $5000.  Canada is ranked #5 in the world, you might think that the difference between 1st and 5th can't be that much, but our betting odds are 33:1, if you bet just $1 on Canada, you'll get back $33 if they win...the same $10,000 bet on Canada would get you $330,000 if we won the Tournament.  The 2nd-4th ranked teams have decent-ish odds, 2:1, 7:2, 4-1...not long-shots by any means but far from safe bets.  Betters basically think that America is 4x more likely to win the tournament than the 2nd ranked team, and then the odds fall off pretty quickly after that.
    OldGriswold



  • Well done he's 13.
    England 5 Germany 1...Owen gets a pass :) 
  • amyja89amyja89 Oxford, England
    Interested to see what happens in today’s matches. USA playing Chile, another team that they should beat very handily, I wonder if their behaviour changes at all. Thailand up against Sweden too which might not be 13-0 but will probably still be a bashing. Will be an interesting comparison if Sweden start adding up the goals.
  • Lloyd just celebrated after scoring a goal, oh the humanity.
  • amyja89amyja89 Oxford, England
    She certainly didn’t celebrate that dreadful penalty miss. ;-P
  • Looks like the US put mostly reserves today against Chile. Looks like that whole "we gotta score as many goals as possible in case of a tie breaker" wasn't really a sincere argument.
  • ElisaElisa Los Angeles
    Looks like the US put mostly reserves today against Chile. Looks like that whole "we gotta score as many goals as possible in case of a tie breaker" wasn't really a sincere argument.
    I think they were keeping the first team for Sweden. 
  • Elisa said:
    Looks like the US put mostly reserves today against Chile. Looks like that whole "we gotta score as many goals as possible in case of a tie breaker" wasn't really a sincere argument.
    I think they were keeping the first team for Sweden. 

    I mean, resting starters makes sense. It just makes it clear that the argument that the coach put forward, that they had to score that many because of tie breakers was BS.

    I don't particularly care that the US ran up the score, and that they kept celebrating like they had just scored the title goal. It just bothers me that people act like that wasn't what that was. If you're going to act like the heel, then embrace being the heel.

    That was the great thing about the dream team. They called themselves the dream team, showboated every game, and when they got criticism (which they did, frequently), their attitude was "so what, we're the best in the world." They didn't invent some concern over point differentials, didn't claim it was because it was their lifelong dream of playing in the olympics,  and responded to criticism by saying "so what" instead of coming up with obviously ridiculous excuses.
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah


    For those of you who think it's okay because it's their dream, what about the Thai dream? I'm not clear on whether they're all pros or whether like the Andorran men's team they are part timers, teachers etc?  Humility doesn't mean dropping down to 10% from 110%.  Perspective is important.


    Not sure what point you’re trying to make here. So the US backups shouldn’t play hard because they may hurt the feelings of the Thai team? 
  • amyja89amyja89 Oxford, England
    On a side note, awesome moment when Thailand scored yesterday. Small potatoes in the grand scheme of the game, but nice to see.
  • OldGriswoldOldGriswold Brooklyn
    Hatorian said:


    For those of you who think it's okay because it's their dream, what about the Thai dream? I'm not clear on whether they're all pros or whether like the Andorran men's team they are part timers, teachers etc?  Humility doesn't mean dropping down to 10% from 110%.  Perspective is important.


    Not sure what point you’re trying to make here. So the US backups shouldn’t play hard because they may hurt the feelings of the Thai team? 
    No. I'm saying their dreams are just as valid. They are no less human, and saying "git gud" is like saying because they aren't as skilled that it's okay to humiliate them, because you can.
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