505 - "Kill the Boy" - Spoiler thread



  • ElisaElisa Los Angeles

    They have to trim story lines and characters.  I don't mind the location cutting but the character complexity trimming makes me sad.

     I also thought it was weird that Sansa would follow Myranda blindly down to the kennel.  I thought she was supposed to be smarter now but finally we get her meet up with Reek/Theon. 
  • CJwriterCJwriter North of the Wall... MT
    edited May 2015
    Dany seemed to go over the edge this episode, nearly Mad-King madcap in her enthusiasm for burning people (and feeding her dragons), Papa would be so proud. Then coming to the conclusion out of the blue to marry Hizdahr. I know it's book canon that she marry him, but she just decides this is what I must do? We know it's a bad decision from the books, I'm just amazed how many of the unsullied non-readers are buying it as the right decision now. Why? 'Cause she's now depending on her own counsel, as Missandei advised? I guess she has no where else to turn. All hail Mad-Queen, Daenerys Targaryen, Mother-of-Dragons, yada, yada, first of her name.        
  • So reading through this thread, here are some of my thoughts about comments in the thread and the episode and where we're going:


    I feel like what the double D's are doing with Sansa is making her story revolve more around the northern conspiracy theory.  The North will rally around Sansa instead of Rickon (not even sure if the show will cover Rickon at all).  I'm definitely also getting the feel that Brienne will end up playing a role with LS (either with her doing it or possibly Sansa). 

    At the dinner scene at the Boltons, I almost expected Theon to break and reveal that both Bran and Rickon escaped him and could still be alive.

    As for Jon, I'm a little disappointed that Melissandre didn't warn Jon that he's in danger but I guess I can live without that.

    And Dany, I was definitely annoyed how the marriage proposal went down with Hizdhar.  I think the show could have had Hizdhar tell Dany in that final scene between them that he could stop the violence for 30 days but if he did, then she would have to marry him (thought that's sort of how it went down in the book).  Instead, they just had Dany offer to marry him?  Pass.  Additionally, earlier in the episode, I wasn't sure if this was a big deal but it seemed like Daario was the one to push one of the masters into the dragons to be fried (I'm not so sure that Dany wanted this as oppose to just scaring them).  Or are we to believe that Dany was executing 1 master per day until she got down to Hizdhar and he just got lucky that she changed her mind?

    As for someone asking about why Sam is at the wall, his dad basically said that he didn't want Sam to rule because he thought it was weak and either it was Sam goes to the wall or Sam will "accidentally" get killed during a hunting adventure.  But I also though that in the books, Jon ordered Sam to go to Oldtown so he could eventually replace Maester Aemon and become the Maester for the Wall.


  • uncle_guncle_g CA, USA

    "A Targaryan, alone in the world." Cut to Jon walking into the room. Ahahahaha.

    I winced at this line.  

    First of all did anyone NOT predict that Jon would walk in on that beat?

    Secondly,  WAAH!!!    Why is it so bad being a Targaryan alone when we've been watching literally years of Starks being alone....with -- albeit speaking from a 1st-world caucasian perspective -- some pretty shocking consequences.  And for that matter,especially in a season where Dany's in the weeds again as @A_Ron_Hubbard mentioned in an earlier comment, .

    A better (but I'm sure not the best) alternate line in my mind would be:  "It would be sad day if the Targaryan line were to vanish from the planet...<Enter Jon>"      
  • One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post, a giant LOL to Stannis on being the grammar police.  I actually rewound that scene and max'ed out the volume to try to hear what Stannis said because I couldn't understand him.  Finally put the closed captions on and then saw he said "fewer" and then I laughed.  Just too funny that Stannis had to make that remark to himself.
  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY
    I thought that Dany making the marriage proposal herself was to give her character more agency in her story.  I'm not saying the marriage is a good choice, but at least it's hers and not being forced upon her, like Sansa for the umpteenth time.  This episode has enemies making allegiances and how they will or will not doom the parties involved.  I'm not sure why Jon doesn't argue that every wildling north of the Wall is a potential future Wight that they would have to fight, instead of just saying, "Winter is coming." 
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    I've been pondering this Missendi / Grey Worm situation.  It has to be important, right?  I mean, it's one thing when Pete Jackson invents a lot of screen time out of whole cloth for Arwyn and Eowyn, because without those two the movie is an out and out sausage fest, and I thought the changes to give the ladies some time to breathe and have some agency of their own was pretty awesome.

    Game of Thrones does not suffer from a lack of interesting women characters with complex relationships and love lives.  Not at all.  So, if they are spinning this yarn, there has to be some reason that will make sense in the overall arc, or at least that's my theory.  That they are trying to tell this particular story in some way to get ahead of Martin's Razor.  I just can't see what it is.

    I guess another possibility is they are throwing in something for two former slaves so they can be the face of the peoples that Dany is collectively saving, since one fair criticism of the books is that there is no "common man" point of view to be found.  I can think of Areo Hotah, and the various prologue/epilogue characters, but that's it.  If so, I think it's misguided.  So I'm hoping there is a Greater Missandi/Grey Worm unification theory.

    And I agree with Pavlovsbell, and I keep forgetting to bring it up, but what they've done to Loras is terrible.  He went from one of the best, most noble warriors in Westeros who pined for his only love "when the sun has set no candle can replace it" to this?  Who's only career highlights are winning a tournament by trickery and being a "world renowned sword swallower."  What the fuck.  Loras could have been the Westerosi equivalent of Omar, instead he's worse than Jack from Will & Grace.  When the Faith Militant showed up to take him while sparring, I sat up, thinking, "aww yeah, Loras isn't going along quie-- oh, no, wait, they just kind of took him, I guess."  I don't need him to be Omar, but god can he at least be as nuanced and interesting as Oberyn?  
  • "I'm not sure why Jon doesn't argue that every wildling north of the Wall is a potential future Wight that they would have to fight, instead of just saying, "Winter is coming."  "


    I'm pretty sure Jon was making this argument in this past episode.  He mentioned how the wildings will just become part of the army of the dead.  The Night's Watch brothers were just "meh, I don't care, I hate the wildings, let them all die".


    If memory serves me correct, doesn't Loras end up dying in the books anyways (or like mortally wounded) from when Cersei sends him off to take a castle and Loras ends up being burned by the oil/tar (even thought when Jamie found out about it, he was like "what the heck are doing" to Cersei)?  So, it doesn't seem like his character has much value in the books, so I don't mind the way the show is treating him.  But I get the point that Loras is suppose to be a top notch swordsman and should have put up a little more fight when the Faith Militant came to arrest him.


  • CJwriterCJwriter North of the Wall... MT
    The overhead camera shot of Sansa at the base of the old tower looked as if it was from Bran's three-eyed crow pov. A thousand eyes and one. Wonder if it will be recalled when Bran joins the show in season 6?
  • I've been pondering this Missendi / Grey Worm situation.  It has to be important, right?  I mean, it's one thing when Pete Jackson invents a lot of screen time out of whole cloth for Arwyn and Eowyn, because without those two the movie is an out and out sausage fest, and I thought the changes to give the ladies some time to breathe and have some agency of their own was pretty awesome....

    I hope you're right, and that there is a bigger picture that maybe we aren't all seeing yet. The slow moving pieces sure aren't helping.
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    edited May 2015
    Loras might be dead / mortally wounded in the books, which was my take away, but I've read some compelling tinfoil that might be an elaborate Tyrell plot to fool Cersei into complacency, and he'll be back with a Vengeance later.  Hell, if old Sandor doesn't come back to fight UnGreggor as champion of the faith, it would be interesting if Loras did.  I wouldn't have put money on Loras before, but if he  is alive, and full of rage against the Lannisters, and assuming Greggor has lost a step with the whole, you know, dying thing... maybe.  He's equally good with lance, sword, axe, and mace, so that would be interesting.

    Nice catch, CJ... I just got done watching it again, and I picked up on that... also you can hear crows croaking in the background.  I wonder if that's something I should bring up on the podcast proper... probably not?
  • steph_bsteph_b Austin
    edited May 2015
    With Loras its way more than he was a great warrior. The show - not the books - took the time to flesh him out even more. Making him the brains behind Renly's play for the crown. It was all Loras' idea. Then once Renly is dead we get stereotypical gay guy engaged to Sansa and talking about fashion. Now he's devolved to nothing more than sex. And all of this is pure show devolution - completely separate from the books. The show gave us Season 1 Loras and then the show taketh him away. .

    I totally believe in a Tyrell conspiracy. Hes back in Highgarden ready to take his vengence.

  • CJwriterCJwriter North of the Wall... MT
    edited May 2015
    @A_Ron_Hubbard ; The tower shot was so peculiar I immediately thought of Bran. At first I thought it was the view from the Stark Heart-Tree. Did anyone else see it that way? Was surprised it was the old tower, but that's where Bran first flew, poorly. If not the podcast proper then in Friday's spoiler cast. :)   
  • steph_bsteph_b Austin
    Seeing as how the tunnels under Winterfell has already been mentioned - I have a feeling that's how Brienne would gain entrance. 
  • pavlovsbellpavlovsbell Brooklyn, NY
    edited May 2015
    @dochielomn  Yes, you are correct.  Jon did say that, but he followed it up with, "Whatever they are now, they're better than that."  Just seemed like a weak argument, and Jon should have emphasized the strategic benefits.  They couldn't defeat the wildlings without Stannis, how are they supposed to defeat them once Stannis leaves, forget about if they all turn into Wights.  Jon was not controlling the room nor was he even trying to.  Or maybe I'm just influenced by book knowledge.  If I were just a show watcher, I wouldn't be expecting betrayal and mutiny from the Night's Watch (even though they are foreshadowing it heavily), and perhaps I'd be more worried about Jon's safety north of the Wall.
  • pavlovsbell  I'd say for a non-book reader and just show watcher, I think it's obvious that a mutiny might be coming if Jon keeps pushing for the wildings.  Jon had no backing from any of the Night's Watch brothers, including the 1 guy who said "i'd follow you to hell and back but I'm not doing this" (Meatloafed as the guy's put in the reaction podcast).  Although, it's tough for me to tell since I think if I asked some of my non-book reader friends, it might end up with me leading them into thinking about this as oppose to them just saying "I predict the brothers will revolt against Jon".  I basically thought Jon stating his case and the brothers couldn't get by their feelings towards the wildings.
  • The marriage proposal was really rough.  The way the show is doing it, I can't even blame Hizdahr for wanting to (potentially) poison Dany later!  OF COURSE he would want to now!  That scene just felt really forced and poorly executed.  Earlier in the episode I thought they were just going to bypass that plot entirely and have Hizdahr eaten along with the other masters.
  • I have mostly been enjoying this season and the "slow" stuff hasn't bothered me at all. Heck, I even kind of like the Missendi / Grey Worm stuff. And for the first time, I actually give a little bit of a shit about Jon and especially Stannis.

    But, the proposal thing was pretty bad. I guess they wanted her to have more control than she did in the books, but it was very rushed and seemed to come out of nowhere. They needed to do a better job building that up.

  • davemcbdavemcb Melbourne
    I'm not sure why book readers are judging the show so critically at the moment, of course season 3 & 4 were going to be the best seasons because the source material was the best of the available material with 4-5 monster plot twists and events. @A_Ron_Hubbard isnt the only book reader to struggle through Feast and Dance as I did the same thing, I went through the first 3 back to back in a month but took me nearly 5 months to complete Feast alone

    Feast and Dance have their moments but are basically hot garbage for a majority of the books. I admit that might be a bit strong but compared to A Storm of Swords its not very good at all. At the moment we are dealing with a pretty good adaptation of below average material. Yes there are some changes but I'm sure GRRM would have made those changes in hindsight a little like the Kirkman remixes in TWD. Im upset with the potential of not seeing a number of characters but if they arent going anywhere why not streamline it and speed up the slowest of the books material. 

  • I'm hoping that the Sansa plotline soon results in Ramsay's head being impaled at the end of Brienne's sword with a Deus Ex Stannis riding in before their impending executions. Sadly, enroute to Winterfell Selyse tragically dies of dysentery contracted whilst fording a river. Shoulda ponied up for that ferry, Stannis. So Sansa marries Stannis and has a litter of grammatically correct gingersnap babies and reunites the north. 

    Oh and meanwhile Dany and Tyrion marry and begin breeding a new master race of hot blonde dragon-riding geniuses the likes of which Westeros hasn't seen since the Valyrians.

    But then again this is Game of Thrones so there will probably just be an extinction event asteroid splashing down to doom all of Westeros
  • I don't understand the dislike over Grey Worm Missandei. Not all love has to plug in like Lego pieces to be interesting.

    But I do agree that the marriage proposal to Hizdahr was clunky and poorly calculated by Dany.
  • steph_bsteph_b Austin
    I really wanted to see Wun Wun getting hammered. Also I wanted to see him wreck shop when the men attack Jon. 

    And I cant say often enough how much i dont want to see Edd betray Jon. That would be D&D pissing in the eye of book fans. 
  • uncle_guncle_g CA, USA
    edited May 2015
    By the way, @A_Ron_Hubbard, LOVED the part in the Instant cast about engineering and Rule #1 of debugging/trouble-shooting: "Only change one thing at a time!"  It's TOTALLY what I was thinking (along with rule 1b:  "Don't fix what ain't broke"), and that comment on the 'cast brought me back some 20 years to my first programming assignment out of college.   I'm glad to know other people were thinking the same way as my crazy brain about that scene.

    To me, this seems like rushed writing more than a character flaw, however.  Do you agree?  

    I would have let the threat of becoming box-lunch for the Dragons sit for awhile and see what comes of it (or at least I would have paid some sort of lip-service whatsoever to it not having worked )...   I'm very anxious to see Jim's full take on it.


  • So one question I meant to ask that I can't recall from the books, on the show, we hear Jorah shout out "don't let them touch you" when the stonemen attack.  And we saw Tyrion get grabbed on his pant leg while he was in the water.  Does this classify is being touched/infected?  Or do the stonemen have to make physical contact to your skin in order for you to be infected?  Or is it a scenario where if the stonemen touch your clothes and then you touch that spot on your clothes with your hand, now you become infected?  I'm going with the impression that it has to physical contact and since Tyrion's skin did not get touched, then him telling Jorah "no, they didn't touch me" wasn't lying on Tyrion's part.


    On a side note, since I heard this mentioned in one of the podcasts, about the Unsullied, a doctor friend of mine who watches the show, also called BS on the Unsullied muscle mass (or them having 8 or 10 pack abs).  They said since the Unsullied are suppose to have their balls chopped at the very least, that the loss of that testosterone would make it highly unlikely that they could have that type of muscle definition.

  • @dochielomn Well not quite, remember that Shireen got greyscale just from touching a doll. I interpret it as more like Poison Ivy, oils or something can transfer to clothing/other surfaces which can then be transferred to your skin and cause an infection. In that case touching the outside of Tyrion's pant leg where he was grabbed may possibly cause infection, but on the other hand it happened underwater, so I could buy it not transferring to his clothes and just lucking out. 
  • I saw the stone man grab Tyrion's boot. Regardless, I didn't see it touch any of his skin, but who knows what happened in the Jorah rescue moments that followed.
  • ghm3, good point.  The Shireen example is a good comparison.  But yeah, since it happened underwater, then I'd guess the "tough" got washed away and doesn't count anymore.
  • "A Targaryan, alone in the world." Cut to Jon walking into the room. Ahahahaha.

    Could it be that they are leading up to a deathbed confession of R+L=J in the show?  Maester Aemon seems to not have much time left.  Perhaps they could reveal that Rhaegar was sending ravens to uncle (great uncle?) Aemon during the whole Lyanna 'kidnapping" to seek his advice.  Heck, Maybe the whole Ned ruse could have been Aemon's idea?  Not a great way to explain it, but it seem more plausible than "Littlefinger just happens to know everything".  With Melisandre leaving the wall and Bran and his visions awol, the show is running out of ways to reveal this to Jon this season.
  • EnverEnver Toronto

    So, Christopher Walken is the Bolton's Maester. I'd imagine outside his office there's a WE ACCEPT WALKENS sign.

    Danny just took two steps backwards. First she locks her "babies" up for eating people and then throws all of that out of the window by rewarding them for bad behaviour.

    RE: Grayscale, I feel same way Jim feels about the magic in this show; we don’t know the rules of grayscale to
    make a definite statement either way. Tyrion got grabbed by his boot, or maybe his
    pants. There wasn’t direct contact (skin-skin). WTF is grayscale? If it’s like
    chicken pox where you just need to be in the same room with someone to get it
    (like they do in children chicken pox parties) then he's definitely contracted it. But is it airborne or transmitted through a
    medium like water? You could argue the sea/lake is so large and it could be
    diluted, but if this place is infested by these people, those parts per billion
    turn into ppm and ppt.

    Game of Thrones >> Any other show on TV
    right now. Any other show would have used Tyrion fading into black as the
    cliffhanger for next episode, and GOT 1Ups it by showing Jorah getting infected. Way to go DDs.


  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah

    I was thinking the same thing about the ending. i was like surely it would have made sense to end with Tyrion in the water then BAM greyscale. awesome. 
This discussion has been closed.