505 - "Kill the Boy" - Spoiler thread



  • steph_bsteph_b Austin
    edited May 2015
    AFFC and ADWD were not boring and quite a bit DOES happen.

    It's just that it brought in the Dornish and the Greyjoys at a point right after a rather ridiculous amount of giant plot payoffs.

    I get that some people who prefer lots of action and big FUCK YEAH moments may find it boring but it does not make it boring in an objective way.
  • Anybody else think that the show is really downplaying the role of Reek/Theon?  Don't get me wrong -  Alfie Allen does a phenomenal job acting as a broken man, but in the books - Theon is completely a destroyed human.  Its been a while since Ramsey has done something torturous to Theon in the show.  This episode when he made Theon get down on his knees, i thought for sure that we were going to see something torturous.  Especially when he asked for Theon's hand.  I was tense and awaiting something happen to Theon's fingers.  ADWD has Ramsey removing the skin/finger nails, and even entire joints.  I think this would really add to Ramsey & Theon characters even more.  Even the non book readers know that Theon was an excellent archer (from scenes in season 1).  Removing his fingers would just cement the fact that his character will never again be the same.

    I understand that the show can only be so long and another torture scene may not be necessary, but i think it would be a nice reminder to how he was once a skilled and promising marksman.  

    I just am writing this because i remember being soooooo into the Reek chapters in the books.  Just simply at the edge of my seat and interested in this sad story.  The psychological aspects of Reek (with the rhyming) would have been a cool little thing for the show to include when Sansa was approaching him in the kennels.   Just Reek simply whispering "Reek Reek Reek, rhymes with freak"... or something along those lines...

    Anyway, just some thoughts.  Thought the episode was alright as a whole.
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah

    I think we are meant to believe that Reek is so broken that he doesn't need any more punishment to keep in line. I think they are purposely showing that he is completely broken. But I may be wrong. 
  • steph_b, have to disagree with you with regards to AFFC and ADWD.  I know a few different people that were reading the GoT books and couldn't make it through AFFC because it was so slow moving and nothing was happening.  The only way I made it through was because I "read" the books via audio books and so I was just able to power my way through it.  If my only option was physically reading it myself, I wouldn't have survived.  There is only so much Brienne wandering through the forrest or Iron Islands politics that I could have took.  I know I always thought that AFFC could be summed up in about 2 or 3 tv episodes and ADWD was probably the same (hence I figured there was a good chance that the double D's would pass the books this season).  However, at least ADWD gets more interesting towards the end and has something major that happens with Jon getting stabbed.  But ultimately books 4 and 5 I thought were just "filler" books. 


    Book 4 summed up- Cersei is just plotting against Magaery and which eventually results in the walk of shame stuff, Brienne is wandering around until she meets LS, Jamie negotiates a truce in the Riverlands and that's it for him, Sana's storyline does nothing, the Ironborn are just deciding who should be their next leader and what they should do next, the Martells are battling amongst themselves over what to do next, Arya is just training the whole time, and Sam is also just traveling around.  I just don't see how this is that exciting, especially when you're coming out of book 3 and everything that transpired once the Red Wedding happened.


  • steph_bsteph_b Austin
    What I said was that the idea of the book being boring is a subjective opinion. Not a fact. I did not find it boring at all.

    My comment was a response to ARon's suggestion in the podcast that people who think it's not boring are deceiving themselves or giving it better praise because they believe it will pay off.

    So, anyone that liked the book is self-deluded? Really? How about people do have different tastes and opinions. And that should be ok.
  • ElisaElisa Los Angeles
    I am a huge fan of the joint read Feast/Dance....just saying.
  • steph_b, understand completely that "to each their own" and that some people such as yourself enjoyed books 4 and 5 or did not find them boring.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  However, I think if a poll was done about the enjoyment level of books 4 and 5, my guess is that majority would side with the books were a little too slow moving.   But, this is just my speculation based upon talking to other friends of mine who've read the books or attempted to read book 4 and ended up not finishing it because they found it a little dull (and hence, they have yet to get around to try to read book 5).
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    Hmm, I took great pains not to say that people who enjoyed Feast or Dance are deluded.  Just that, in retrospect, I feel a great many of those people WILL feel that way if Winds and Dream suck or are unsatisfying.  Like, I actually defended, quite genuinely, the Star Wars prequel trilogy until Sith came out, then I hated it, because I was hoping everything would come together in the end in a satisfying way, and it didn't.  

    I apologize if it came out like I thought people were kidding themselves about Feast and Dance.  I maintain they aren't as approachable or accessibly as the first three, but some of the best tinfoil is to be mined from them, and there are hints of just incredible things happening.  Whether those hints pay off remain to be seen.
  • djhova1djhova1 Boston, MA
    I agree the season is a little slow. But it will be hard to judge until you see what the payoff is first. It reminds me of season 2 which was really slow to me. But I think it was setting up a lot of things that paid off later in the season and in season 3. 

    One thing from this episode that I have been questioning but I haven't seen anyone talking about it, but is the "North remembers" old lady actually a Bolton plant? She sends Sansa to the old tower and Miranda shows up. I mean she could of just been following her but even Ramsy says the North remembers in a mocking tone. 
  • ElisaElisa Los Angeles
    I don't think the old lady is a Bolton plant. She is there to show that local people still believe there should always be a Stark in Winterfell. Now Ramsey was mocking Sansa. One of his numerous mental games lol.
  • ARon have you done or considered doing the merged Feast/Dance read? I'm about halfway through now and am enjoying it way more than the first time I read them individually. I agree though that they definitely aren't as approachable as books 1-3 ... although by the time I got to Feast I was fully invested in the story, so didn't mind them so much even initially.

    I got the nice ebook version of the combo read here:

    Also unrelated ... at what point do you think it's game to theorize about R+L=J from a show-only perspective? I think they're starting to lay it on pretty thick, although I guess I'm clouded by prior knowledge. But if someone spliced together a supercut of all the scenes with hints from Seasons 1-5, I bet a lot of people would suss it out.
  • So it so sounds like A.ron and Jim think hizdar is a d-bag because he's a proponent of opening the fighting pits. But basically everyone on westeros are proponents of tourneys in which people always die. I know it's apples and oranges here. One is a fight to the death and t'other is not necessarily to the death but it's not uncommon. So why all the hate for hizdar and not someone like Barry the bold who loves tourneys?
  • uncle_guncle_g CA, USA
    Hizdar question:  My memory needs refreshing.....

    Has Hizdar actually done anything to date ***in the show*** to make us doubt his motives -- other than the fact that he is a citizen of a city under seige?  

    I remember coming away from the books feeling like he's slimy and a chief suspect in the locust-poisoning, but in the show so far has there been any reason to suspect he's not being forthright???

  • steph_bsteph_b Austin
    show Hizdar is way less sketchy
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    Same. If anything, I'd support Hizdar assassinating Dany as revenge for his father.
  • @A_Ron_Hubbard your book-knowledge trolling might be my favorite part of the non-spoiler cast.  I keep waiting for a "You know nothing, Jim Snow".

    I think I'm one of few people who has been 100% on board for the D&D Remixing this season.  I was so burnt out after Feast that I only did a half-assed audio listen of Dance, and the fact that I don't remember every twist and turn of that definitely adds to my enjoyment of it.  Has anyone else had that experience?  Don't get me wrong, I think they did an amazing job with season 4, but knowing every beat of had me way more focused on the changes and my feelings about them than on the quality the story they were telling. 
  • uncle_guncle_g CA, USA
    Elisa said:

    I don't think the old lady is a Bolton plant. She is there to show that local people still believe there should always be a Stark in Winterfell. Now Ramsey was mocking Sansa. One of his numerous mental games lol.

    God..... if "The North Remembers" lady is a Bolton plant, at this point, I'd probably feel as sick as I did when I saw Ned's  and Oberyn's deaths on TV.  (Didn't START reading the books until well into season 4...).  It was a high-point of badassery for me for this season.  It would be a crushing blow....

    ...which means it MUST be true.
  • edited May 2015
    with this show, I've gotten good at picking out little moments and loving them while completely tuning out large portions of the episodes.
    For me, the stuff at the Wall worked. I enjoyed Stannis and Samwell, Jon and Thormund and I especially loved Davos asking Shereen if she would protect him when the battle starts.
    I've always had a sense of kinship with Sansa (because in my heart I know I would have been as unequipoed to deal with Kings Landing as she was) so to see her glee at Fat Walda's announcement was awesome. I really wish the original Old Nan hadn't passed away. How brilliant would it have been to have her deliver the line "The North Remembers"???
    Dany's story falls short with me always (book and series) but I got a little teary with the Meisande (so) Grey Worm scene.
    Still can NOT believe they killed off Barriston! WTF?!?!? I adored reading all the little details his chapters gave in Dance. Some how hearing that Rhaegar liked to sing just didn't cut it.
  • djhova1djhova1 Boston, MA
    Not sure if anyone brought this up already but I watched it again last night and I didn't catch it the first time. Who is sending information about Dany especially to the Wall? That just doesn't make sense to me. Even if that is just general intel why would they send it to the wall? Is there someone else possible spying in Dany's camp? And what's their connection with Maester Amon? Could it be Varys?
  • steph_bsteph_b Austin
    edited May 2015
    I was wondering the same. Varys makes sense. But who would he send the info as? Wouldn't the Night's Watch be curious why Varys was sending random messages about Dany?

    I heard it theorized that maybe it was from Eastwatch - some news from a passing trader.

    But this is just one of many perplexing plot devices on the show this season. I guess the writers just assume people will just let it go and not think about it too much.
  • ksa1001ksa1001 Plano, TX
    In that same vein (and sorry if this is a silly question) how is it that Roose knows that Stannis is at the wall and about to march south to take Winterfell exactly?
  • djhova1djhova1 Boston, MA
    ksa1001 said:

    In that same vein (and sorry if this is a silly question) how is it that Roose knows that Stannis is at the wall and about to march south to take Winterfell exactly?

    Little Finger knew so I'm not surprised at that, plus that is the only logical move knowing Stannis means to head south eventually for Kings Landing.  But I wonder why Cersie either doesn't know or really care. She must be totally consumed with what she has going on in King's Landing. 
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    djhova1 said:

    Not sure if anyone brought this up already but I watched it again last night and I didn't catch it the first time. Who is sending information about Dany especially to the Wall? That just doesn't make sense to me. Even if that is just general intel why would they send it to the wall? Is there someone else possible spying in Dany's camp? And what's their connection with Maester Amon? Could it be Varys?

    Isn't there something in the books about the Citadel sending out kind of general "intelligence briefs" to all the Maesters?  Some basic things like seasonal observations and major goings on?
  • I just go with the theory that news spreads.  You have people traveling between lands/continents and the people traveling just sort of spread the news and it makes it way.  Now, in some cases such as Little Finger and Varys, maybe their intel comes in a little quicker.

    As for Roose, I'm sure he has his spies out there as well.  As soon as he hears that Stannis is at the Wall, it would make logical sense to assume that Stannis was going to attack the Boltons at Winterfell since the Boltons had aligned themselves with the Lannisters at the Red Wedding.  Additionally, even if Roose swore allegiance to Stannis now, Stannis is still going to kill Roose because of the Red Wedding and Roose's involvement in it. 

  • steph_bsteph_b Austin
    edited May 2015
    I don't recall anything about General Citadel news briefs other than a white raven when the seasons change.

    And considering that we get some info in ADWD that The Citadel may be the major power behind the eradication of dragons and Magic I doubt they would send out positive messages about how awesome Dany is. That's assuming the show sticks with the books.
  • I'm going to a chime in with a vote of support for Dany's storyline in this episode, even if I'm swimming upstream by doing so.  She needed to send a message and exert her power, and do so in a way that was more effective than nailing the 143 (or how ever many) Masters to the poles (and just pissing people off) or executing that slave leader and inciting a hiss-fest and mass riot. This one execution by dragonfire showed that 1) she's got dragons (unlike in the book where they disappear) and isn't afraid to use them, 2) she will punish actions against her, unlike the ambiguity that resulted from the earlier capture of that one Son of the Harpy who hid behind the wrong wall, 3) she will do so in way that gets her message clearly to her intended audience, unlike the public execution that confused the former slave population, and 4) she has dragons and isn't afraid to use them (worth repeating.  I'm sure Dario would agree).  At the risk of being repetitive, what makes her unique isn't her army of Unsullied, its the dragons, and she has been struggling for a way to make them a positive for her, and not a child-and-goat eating negative.  I think she succeeded.

    Additionally, if you listen to her words during the random-Master-BBQ, she talks about not giving up on her children - disciplining them if necessary, but not giving up.  Reading between the lines, that approach seems to have worked with her dragons, since they are much better behaved than the last time we saw them.  Regardless, she takes the same approach that she talks about with regard to her "children", and applies it to the Merenese.  She disciplines them, but does not give up, and instead renews her commitment to ruling them and/or being their Mhysa, by opening the fighting pits and marrying someone from a leading family.

    Viewed in this light, she is learning from her mistakes, and returning to her role as mother - both to the dragons and to the Merenese.  Moreover, as others have noted, she gotten the necessary end point of reopening the pits and getting married (since that's where the books take us) through an act of strength, rather than being pushed and acting more in desperation as she does in the books.

  • @Mikey I agree with you about reek. But/and, I just watched a couple episodes from season 1 and the first time I saw Theon onscreen nearly took my breath away...the difference is pretty remarkable. Last year i thought they weren't doing enough with his breakdown either, but this season they have really highlighted how f'd up.he is, showcasing the missing teeth and fingers.

    It's tough, because there's no way to compete with the impact of that storyline in the books - the slow identity reveal, the flashback torture stuff, the mad fear in his inner monologues...the first Theon POV toward the end of Dance (ah!).

    I can't remember, but in the show they did address that the missing fingers and toes are the result of flaying, right? That the pain is so unbearable he begs to have them cut off? Because I remembered that right away with the "give me your hand" business, and it was sufficient to make me shudder.

    I think it's too early to call. I just can't see them doing any version of the fluffer storyline, or really anything that comes close to raping Sansa. And without the spearwives or Bran, we just don't know what they will do with him. Which is another way of saying, I'm cautiously optimistic.

    Some other notes:

    All this time I thought Daario "Nyquilis" was just one of A_Ron's pronunciation quirks, and it really bothered me. I was even considering writing in to correct him, and wondering why no one else had. Until the guys discussed the actor change this week and A_Ron made the snoring sound. Oooooooooooooohhhhh. Duh.

    I am really perturbed by Mel leaving the wall. But I guess if Jon is too, there's not much for her to do there. Other than that, I am really enjoying the wall and Stannis this season.

    Jim's obsession with Dany's fireproof superpower cracks me up.
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