103 - She Was Killed by Space Junk (Spoilers)

JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
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  • My instant chat isn't working. Anyone else?
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited November 4
    @Hunkulese Confirmed they were trolling the audience about Veidt. Honestly I don't really blame them. Ya'll seem to enjoy the theorizing? ;) (Or maybe you specifically don't enjoy it, I can't remember.) But I thought it was pretty cute how they confirmed the trolling too. 

    I mean I like theorizing too, but like I said, this was all meta-show and that doesn't seem to be their style.
  • This just continues to be more and more incredible after each week. That HBO podcast sounds awesome, too. 
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    I think the Mars message time isn't meant to have any implications, and is just a shortcut so the car falls in front of her pretty quickly. A case where your science knowledge is an impediment.
    Logsblogs
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    This show is actually frustrating me now. I came out of it feeling anxious/angry. I might take a break and just binge it, even though as I'm typing this I like that solution less than the problem. Eugh, gross.
  • This show is starting to feel too cool for school. It's almost like it's going to be all setup to a big reveal and not just telling a story. 

    I'm still onboard, just getting a little frustrated with the pacing. 

    I thought the speed of light to Mars was 3 minutes? Why they say 40 seconds?
  • HunkuleseHunkulese Québec, Canada
    edited November 4
    JaimieT said:
    @Hunkulese Confirmed they were trolling the audience about Veidt. Honestly I don't really blame them. Ya'll seem to enjoy the theorizing? ;) (Or maybe you specifically don't enjoy it, I can't remember.) But I thought it was pretty cute how they confirmed the trolling too. 

    I mean I like theorizing too, but like I said, this was all meta-show and that doesn't seem to be their style.
    I dunno. Everything that's going on with Veidt just keeps getting more and more bizarre. I'm not really sure how real any of what's going on in those scenes actually is.

    We do know that he seems to have an unlimited supply of clones to serve him, so anything to do with cloning or transferring a consciousness is on the table. There seems to be only one Mr. Phillips and one Ms. Crookshanks at a time, but all the other clones are there to be promoted. Veidt could be just as disposable.
  • The show is implying there are simulations inside a simulation(s) or beside simulations. Dr. Manhattan might be the boy working on the metallic mansion. Maybe Silk II and Sister Night will be allowed to enter reality at some point. Don Johnson might be there as someone else. If that isn't your type of show, you have been warned.
    Elisa
  •  Clone Death of the week,
    week 1 immolation 
    week  2 frozen in space
    week 3 acid bath?
    Elisa
  • This goes without saying, Jeremy Irons looks Fucking Amazing. I can say with 1000% certainty i will not look an 1/8 as good when I reach his age. He doesn’t look like he’s had a lot of work, just clean living probably.
    JaimieT
  • Poor agent Petey, how many times will he be shat before we have to hear about his Phd in history.
  • How much does a call to Mars set you back?
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Hunkulese said:
    JaimieT said:
    @Hunkulese Confirmed they were trolling the audience about Veidt. Honestly I don't really blame them. Ya'll seem to enjoy the theorizing? ;) (Or maybe you specifically don't enjoy it, I can't remember.) But I thought it was pretty cute how they confirmed the trolling too. 

    I mean I like theorizing too, but like I said, this was all meta-show and that doesn't seem to be their style.
    I dunno. Everything that's going on with Veidt just keeps getting more and more bizarre. I'm not really sure how real any of what's going on in those scenes actually is.

    We do know that he seems to have an unlimited supply of clones to serve him, so anything to do with cloning or transferring a consciousness is on the table. There seems to be only one Mr. Phillips and one Ms. Crookshanks at a time, but all the other clones are there to be promoted. Veidt could be just as disposable.

    How do you infer a transfer of consciousness from what we've been shown?
    Elisa
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    adobo1148 said:
    This goes without saying, Jeremy Irons looks Fucking Amazing. I can say with 1000% certainty i will not look an 1/8 as good when I reach his age. He doesn’t look like he’s had a lot of work, just clean living probably.

    He's majestic. 
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited November 4


    I looked up an interview with him, curious what he'd say about the role, and parts of this had me dying. The things he had to say to fill space, to avoid any spoilers. Good laughs! Also it's interesting he works the William Shatner horse riding angle, of claiming to have taken the role for horse riding.
    Flukes
  • @JaimieT he was 100% beating around the bush and doing his absolute best to give the listener absolutely nothing while still sounding like he was giving them something lol.  That was awesome.  

    I loved the episode and can't wait to see next weeks episode.  It's typical Lindelof in which he answers a question but by answering that question asks an even bigger question.  I'm loving the conflict that is being introduced by Laurie Blake and find it hilarious that her partner is Petey.  Wonder where Peteypedia got it's name...
    JaimieTElisa
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited November 4
    awookiee said:
    @JaimieT he was 100% beating around the bush and doing his absolute best to give the listener absolutely nothing while still sounding like he was giving them something lol.  That was awesome.  

    I loved the episode and can't wait to see next weeks episode.  It's typical Lindelof in which he answers a question but by answering that question asks an even bigger question.  I'm loving the conflict that is being introduced by Laurie Blake and find it hilarious that her partner is Petey.  Wonder where Peteypedia got it's name...

    I need to rewatch Leftovers season 1. In my defense I have seen it 3 times. I think that show was much, much better with the character development, so at least I had something solid to sink my teeth into. In fact, yes, episode 3 was about Matt so I felt I had 2 strong characters to grasp onto (+ Kevin). In Watchmen, it seems Angela's feelings about Judd are complicated and since this is the primary concern of her character, I just don't know who she is. Laurie is okaaay and most promising but because she's (understandably) cold she's not an immediate fix.   My character-starved brain has latched onto Petey most of all. The earnest, smart type is good for that.

    And then we have Ozy, but we aren't told anything about what he's doing so he's a fucking annoying cipher of a character, currently. He's running on Jeremy Irons's fumes.

    Maybe Leftovers is the anomaly where since the main struggle is grief you end up with these vulnerable, relatable characters. That sustains me through the mysteries.
    awookieeblacksunrise7CretanBullBloodyTacoShum
  • I think anyone watching this should really put The Leftovers out of their minds...this seems like a different project in every conceivable way and comparing it to (arguably) the best show of all time because they have the same showrunner bound to set you up for disappointment. 
    ElisaFlukessassyfontainej0n1c4MurderbearTeresa from Concord
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited November 4
    Sure, but it can still be a useful comparison in post, for clarity's sake. Discussion characterization is next to pointless without clarifying examples, and the closer to the material the better. 
    CretanBull
  • JaimieT said:
    Sure, but it can still be a useful comparison in post, for clarity's sake. Discussion characterization is next to pointless without clarifying examples, and the closer to the material the better. 
    For sure, and I totally see where you're coming from...I was just offering a general reminder to everyone watching that if we compare the two shows on The Leftovers terms (ie people are pointing out how The Watchmen isn't what The Leftovers was, no one is pointing out what The Watchmen is that The Leftovers wasn't) we're setting ourselves up for disappointment because the standard that we're inadvertently creating is that it has to be as good or better than the best show ever to not be a let down.  Whether the Watchmen ends up being a good show or not is yet to be seen, but I think we have to resist the urge to make it guilty of not being The Leftovers. 
    JaimieTKillert0ast
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    Silk Spectre "I know what you did last Summer!"
    Sister Knight "Bish like I care!"


    Elisasassyfontaine
  • A_Ron_HubbardA_Ron_Hubbard Cincinnati, OH
    I think anyone watching this should really put The Leftovers out of their minds...this seems like a different project in every conceivable way and comparing it to (arguably) the best show of all time because they have the same showrunner bound to set you up for disappointment. 
    You think so? I'm clinging to my association with TL to keep me anchored during this episodes craziness. Like, things were really weird at this point in s1 of TL, right? TL was literally our world except a small fraction of the population went missing for reasons. TW is a much different world, with a demi-god that dwells in the solar system and a small fraction of the population wiped out by a squid from space. 

    It's not even that I don't like it, it's just seemingly pushing the limits of what you can get away with and still make it relateable, and the only reason I have confidence it's going to work is because Lindelof did TL which proves he knew what was good about Lost and what didn't work (all that well, for some) on Lost. 

    I feel the same way about Dark on Netflix. The season one ender was so audacious I wanted to lay a German smack on the showrunner and scream "what are you doing?! You can't possibly pay this shit off, you fools!" It's relatively easy to make an intriguing and watchable puzzlebox world of a show, it's super hard to make all that pay off in the end analysis. Every episode he keeps working higher without a net. This one felt like he added a flaming pit of asbestos alligators under him. Every crazy detail that he clearly wants us to notice is going to pay off?
    ElisaOpusWho
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    CapeGabe said:
    This show is starting to feel too cool for school. It's almost like it's going to be all setup to a big reveal and not just telling a story. 

    I'm still onboard, just getting a little frustrated with the pacing. 

    I thought the speed of light to Mars was 3 minutes? Why they say 40 seconds?
    Really dumb theory but it seemed like they were messing with numbers this episode.

    Briefcase code is 667 instead of 666.
    Hotel room is 238 instead of 237.
    40 seconds to Mars instead of 30 seconds to Mars?????

    awookieeElisaFlukessassyfontaineMurderbearTeresa from ConcordOpusWho
  • cdrive said:
    CapeGabe said:
    This show is starting to feel too cool for school. It's almost like it's going to be all setup to a big reveal and not just telling a story. 

    I'm still onboard, just getting a little frustrated with the pacing. 

    I thought the speed of light to Mars was 3 minutes? Why they say 40 seconds?
    Really dumb theory but it seemed like they were messing with numbers this episode.

    Briefcase code is 667 instead of 666.
    Hotel room is 238 instead of 237.
    40 seconds to Mars instead of 30 seconds to Mars?????

    good eye dude.  Never would have caught that but you are definitely on to something.
  • I think anyone watching this should really put The Leftovers out of their minds...this seems like a different project in every conceivable way and comparing it to (arguably) the best show of all time because they have the same showrunner bound to set you up for disappointment. 
    You think so? I'm clinging to my association with TL to keep me anchored during this episodes craziness. Like, things were really weird at this point in s1 of TL, right? TL was literally our world except a small fraction of the population went missing for reasons. TW is a much different world, with a demi-god that dwells in the solar system and a small fraction of the population wiped out by a squid from space. 

    It's not even that I don't like it, it's just seemingly pushing the limits of what you can get away with and still make it relateable, and the only reason I have confidence it's going to work is because Lindelof did TL which proves he knew what was good about Lost and what didn't work (all that well, for some) on Lost. 

    I feel the same way about Dark on Netflix. The season one ender was so audacious I wanted to lay a German smack on the showrunner and scream "what are you doing?! You can't possibly pay this shit off, you fools!" It's relatively easy to make an intriguing and watchable puzzlebox world of a show, it's super hard to make all that pay off in the end analysis. Every episode he keeps working higher without a net. This one felt like he added a flaming pit of asbestos alligators under him. Every crazy detail that he clearly wants us to notice is going to pay off?

    I don't want to put words in @JaimieT's mouth, and I was using her comment as a springboard for my own comment as much as I was replying to her, but she made a point that I've seen other people make elsewhere - that the characters in TW feel shallow in comparison to the ones in the TL, and that they're more difficult to relate to/care about as a result.  I don't disagree with that point, I'm just trying to remind people that TL set out to be a character-driven drama that was - essentially - about the psychology of the protagonists and the cultural/social psychology of the world that was left behind.  The show wasn't about the plot, it was about the people, their relationships and their humanity.

    TW isn't setting out to be any of that at all and comparing it to the Leftovers on those terms is setting TW up to be a disappointment.  Three episodes in and there's a bit of a refrain being expressed in dozens of ways that all amount to some variation of TW being guilty of not being TL.  

    I'm using a bad example here because I'm ignoring the obvious reason for the comparison (having the same showrunner), but it's almost like saying that The Avengers sucks because it's not the Godfather.  When you have something that is a recognized masterpiece, the comparisons can only go one way ie The Avengers can be criticized for not having the level of acting that the Godfather had, but the Godfather can't be criticized for its lack of intergalactic warfare.  When one of two things being compared is the gold-standard, we're going to (subconsciously?) accept the terms of comparison set by the established classic.

    Having said all of that, of course Lindelof's stylistic DNA is all over this show, and as you said that can be a grounding experience for fans of his work. When we can see his fingerprints on the show it can sustain us through some of the goofy stuff when we might otherwise check out because we've got faith that he'll bring it all together.  I think comparisons along these lines are more fair because they're closer to being 'like for like'.  Looking at how Lindelof handles "x" across various projects is natural, but saying that there weren't enough lasers in the Godfather doesn't seem fair to me.


    A_Ron_HubbardElisabizmarkiefader
  • Related/unrelated side note...would you agree that at least some of the hate for LOST has been tempered by the greatness of The Leftovers?  That once people got a better taste of Lindelof's style some people were able to cognitively reframe some of what they didn't like about LOST?
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    So much of my posting on BM is because I'm a World Champion Procrastinator. (I need to get back to work)

    But I just spent a good while going through the Petey Pedia which I just found today, and the Watchmen wiki, and the real wiki.....and now I need a Charlie Kelly Yarn Board.

    J&A and some feedback folks did really well getting all these dots on the board. I'm finally reading the source material
    Judd's great granddad Dixon T. Crawford....Thomas Dixon? as some feedbacker cleverly noticed...author of the Clansmen that then inspire Birth of A Nation that then inspires Tulsa Massacres...There really was a real life reparations effort involving Johnnie Cochran...

    J. Keene (Sr.) gives the Comanche painting to Sheriff Crawford in 1951...maybe Judd's Dad.   Keene is with the Nixon-y folks...there is a famous photo of small boy holding a baby-aged boy from the Tulsa massacre that tracks with the opening of the series.  That real massacre involved the lynching of Dick Rowland.  The noose with Hooded Justice...that has to be Will, right?  So we go two multi-generational families the Crawfords (law enforcement) and the Keenes (Congressmen)...

    "The planet’s surface is red. Doctor Manhattan is blue. There’s only one color missing up there to make our flag complete, my fellow Americans."  hoooooo lawd that is racist! And the New Frontiersmen slogan "Real News" for "Real Americans"  mmhhmm.  And the editor calls G. Gordo Liddy of Watergate infamy a saint...  holy crap Bob Woodward is murdered in the Watchmen universe? this is all fascinating. Back to work.


    ksa1001ElisaFlukessassyfontaine
  • I think I've put my finger on what is bugging me about this series so far. Like The Leftovers there are strange things going on but unlike The Leftovers the characters don't seem too fleshed out. It almost feels like the Watchmen characters are in on the jokes. Everyone's reaction to everything seems seems off. Maybe that is just a byproduct of a world with a magical blue guy and false flag space squid attacks.
    JaimieT
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited November 4
    Related/unrelated side note...would you agree that at least some of the hate for LOST has been tempered by the greatness of The Leftovers?  That once people got a better taste of Lindelof's style some people were able to cognitively reframe some of what they didn't like about LOST?

    I think the hate for LOST has been tempered by most of the fans moving on? The Leftovers just didn't have that big of an audience. All of the LOST fans I know didn't watch The Leftovers... anecdotal. (And I didn't get past 4 episodes of LOST.)
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited November 4
    I think anyone watching this should really put The Leftovers out of their minds...this seems like a different project in every conceivable way and comparing it to (arguably) the best show of all time because they have the same showrunner bound to set you up for disappointment. 
    You think so? I'm clinging to my association with TL to keep me anchored during this episodes craziness. Like, things were really weird at this point in s1 of TL, right? TL was literally our world except a small fraction of the population went missing for reasons. TW is a much different world, with a demi-god that dwells in the solar system and a small fraction of the population wiped out by a squid from space. 

    It's not even that I don't like it, it's just seemingly pushing the limits of what you can get away with and still make it relateable, and the only reason I have confidence it's going to work is because Lindelof did TL which proves he knew what was good about Lost and what didn't work (all that well, for some) on Lost. 

    I feel the same way about Dark on Netflix. The season one ender was so audacious I wanted to lay a German smack on the showrunner and scream "what are you doing?! You can't possibly pay this shit off, you fools!" It's relatively easy to make an intriguing and watchable puzzlebox world of a show, it's super hard to make all that pay off in the end analysis. Every episode he keeps working higher without a net. This one felt like he added a flaming pit of asbestos alligators under him. Every crazy detail that he clearly wants us to notice is going to pay off?

    I don't want to put words in @JaimieT's mouth, and I was using her comment as a springboard for my own comment as much as I was replying to her, but she made a point that I've seen other people make elsewhere - that the characters in TW feel shallow in comparison to the ones in the TL, and that they're more difficult to relate to/care about as a result.  I don't disagree with that point, I'm just trying to remind people that TL set out to be a character-driven drama that was - essentially - about the psychology of the protagonists and the cultural/social psychology of the world that was left behind.  The show wasn't about the plot, it was about the people, their relationships and their humanity.

    TW isn't setting out to be any of that at all and comparing it to the Leftovers on those terms is setting TW up to be a disappointment.  Three episodes in and there's a bit of a refrain being expressed in dozens of ways that all amount to some variation of TW being guilty of not being TL.  

    I'm using a bad example here because I'm ignoring the obvious reason for the comparison (having the same showrunner), but it's almost like saying that The Avengers sucks because it's not the Godfather.  When you have something that is a recognized masterpiece, the comparisons can only go one way ie The Avengers can be criticized for not having the level of acting that the Godfather had, but the Godfather can't be criticized for its lack of intergalactic warfare.  When one of two things being compared is the gold-standard, we're going to (subconsciously?) accept the terms of comparison set by the established classic.

    Having said all of that, of course Lindelof's stylistic DNA is all over this show, and as you said that can be a grounding experience for fans of his work. When we can see his fingerprints on the show it can sustain us through some of the goofy stuff when we might otherwise check out because we've got faith that he'll bring it all together.  I think comparisons along these lines are more fair because they're closer to being 'like for like'.  Looking at how Lindelof handles "x" across various projects is natural, but saying that there weren't enough lasers in the Godfather doesn't seem fair to me.



    Just to tweak my point... It's not that the characters in Watchmen feel shallow compared to TL, it's that the characters in Watchmen feel shallow period. Your point about Watchmen having its own strengths is good, but my rebuttal would be this: every story needs something to happen in it, and it's either something physical (plot) or something non-physical (characters). So far in Watchmen we've only had the inciting incident (Judd's murder) and then a few minor maneuverings afterward. That's not nothing, but it's not very satisfying. This is the point in a story we should have a crossing of the threshold, which is a huge forward movement that characters can't easily return from. The idea of Doctor Manhattan dropping a car in front of Laurie isn't quite enough for me. I honestly expected Doctor Manhattan to just fucking show up physically; this is the point where you're wanting that, the end of the first 1/3. Or for Adrian Veidt to have a major breakthrough, not to be staring hopefully at his reflection. So in light of the plot moving slowly, I'm looking to see if there's any character development happening. And to elucidate my point about how a show might do this, I turn to TL and the strong needs/desires we get from Kevin, Kevin's family, Nora, and Matt. As said many times already, Watchmen's characters are just existing and not exhibiting strong needs/desires. Laurie and Angela have hinted at things but it's hazy. So even the character development front is moving slowly. 

    TL;DR: It's not that I want Watchmen to be a character study, it's that I want to see any kind of movement. I could start comparing Watchmen to Breaking Bad if I wanted to discuss plot movement. It's not that Watchmen should be BB; it's that BB is a good example of plot movement.

    "When we can see his fingerprints on the show it can sustain us through some of the goofy stuff when we might otherwise check out because we've got faith that he'll bring it all together." - Yeah that's a good point too, and that might factor into my comparisons as well. I do want to believe the show will turn out.
    CretanBull
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