Scientology

Would you be interested in a free personality test? Do you have a moment to hear about our Lord and Savior, Mr. L. Ron Rubbard?

Jk. 

This thread will likely go nowhere, but even before (but in part because of) "Going Clear", I've been fascinated with Scientology. And of course, I hold out hope that one day, it will be a nothing more than a footnote in history. 

Maybe the news that today (about Beck) will be the teeniest, tiniest move in that direction. 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/beck-says-he-is-not-a-scientologist-1257357
DoubleA_Ronblacksunrise7sassyfontaine
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Comments

  • DoubleA_RonDoubleA_Ron San Diego
    edited November 2019
    I’m sure this isn’t anything new to most Bald Movers, but if you haven’t watched all three seasons of Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath I would implore you to do so.  Equal parts fascinating and infuriating.
    JoshuaHeterduncanpowersFlukessassyfontaine
  • Also, for anyone who doesn’t have HBO, Going Clear is up on YouTube... I assume only for now.

    https://youtu.be/OLLKsMxPqn0
    sassyfontaine
  • Here's a really well done deep dive into how Scientologists have taken over Clearwater FL (I love when newspapers do cool graphical stories like this):


    JoshuaHeterJaimieT
  • ChinaskiChinaski Santa Cruz, CA
    great way to promote a new album Beck.
    JoshuaHeterDeeFlukessassyfontaine
  • Is it bad that I see all religions about the same as Scientology? I'm guessing at least 5 of what you would consider the top 10 worst things about Scientology apply to most religions.
    DeeJaimieTFlukessassyfontaine
  • redlancer said:
    Is it bad that I see all religions about the same as Scientology? I'm guessing at least 5 of what you would consider the top 10 worst things about Scientology apply to most religions.
    Yes, it is bad insofar as believing things that are false is bad.
    DJ_150
  • The distinction between cult vs. religion is probably the wrong distinction to make. Probably the better distinction is between cult vs. church. Here's why. 

    Arguably, there are people who are still practicing Scientology outside of the "Church of Scientology". They are typically ex-members who are convinced that the main ideas are correct but that the official organization has been corrupted. In other words, they still maintain that primary beliefs and practices of Scientology, but they aren't participating in any way with the cult of the Church of Scientology. 

    At the same time, no Christianity isn't a cult. But, there are (of course) Christian cults. I can't think of a better way to describe (for instance) the Branch Davidians (although, of course it could be argued that they are "Christian" in name only as there is no real sense in which they are following the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth). 

    And so... 

    "Cult vs. Church" > "Cult vs. Religion"
    DoubleA_Ron
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Religion is a gun that fires real bullets and blank bullets. Be careful of the idea that there are any "teachings of Jesus" that one can actually follow in a non-harmful way. I haven't seen any examples of people cleanly "following Jesus" without dogwhistling all the harmful teachings of the religion too, or opening themselves up for abuse. It could be possible outside of the US, but it's so weaponized here.


    "Cult vs. Church" > "Cult vs. Religion"

    Honestly fuck the whole gun.
    Flukessassyfontaine
  • I haven't seen any examples of people cleanly "following Jesus" without dogwhistling all the harmful teachings of the religion too, or opening themselves up for abuse. It could be possible outside of the US, but it's so weaponized here.
    I cannot speak to your experience, @JaimieT, but it seems like it has been relevantly different than mine.
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Right, you got a blank bullet. ;)
    JoshuaHeter
  • JoshuaHeterJoshuaHeter Omaha, NE
    edited November 2019
    JaimieT said:
    Right, you got a blank bullet. ;)
    @JaimieT... I know that there is plenty on which we agree, and plenty on which we disagree. 

    Here's one thing I hope we can agree... "whether or not the gun / religion analogy is apt is a matter of reasonable debate." 

    :smile:
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited November 2019
    @JoshuaHeter

    I should probably not get started on how immoral religion/Christianity is, including how Jesus, more than anyone else, harped on the (immoral) place of Hell, immoral because it's an eternal punishment for temporary crimes. We can agree that we disagree religion/Christianity as an institution is incredibly dangerous. But I don't think me comparing an immoral belief system to a Russian roulette game is a matter of reasonable objection, no. That said, you have a right to be unreasonable in my worldview and nothing will happen to you!
    Eine Frau
  • JoshuaHeterJoshuaHeter Omaha, NE
    edited November 2019
    Agree to disagree.

    https://youtu.be/azvb_P1ymmM
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited November 2019

    I don't agree to disagree on this, because taking some high ground about Jesus preaching Hell, or Jesus condemning thought crime, or Jesus deciding not to condemn the Old Testament slavery that his disciples continued to champion in his name, etc, is not a simple matter of disagreement for me. It's fine you like Jesus in the sense that I can't stop you, but I think it's immoral to prop the guy up considering the horrors his followers get up to. I'd say the same about a lot of dicks people love these days.

    You can't even say Hell is immoral. It's just some bullshit link about how Hell is a state of mind? No, that's not what Jesus said. You know how many people out there have existential anxiety about Hell? You know how they start kids at the age of 3 on Hell so that even when they're 50 they're still waking up in their sweat? Jesus preached Hell more than anyone else in the Bible. But you're going after Scientology. 

    I'm glad this all works out for you personally, but I don't like this disagreement. 
    Eine Frau
  • Seeing as you’re very committed to the idea that this isn’t even a matter on which people could reasonably disagree, I’m not sure it would be fruitful to continue the dialogue here.
    JaimieT
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited November 2019
    Definitely. I wasn't trying to dialogue. I'm just not letting you say religion is positive without someone else saying the truth. (Some other religion might be okay, but not Christianity!)
  • JoshuaHeterJoshuaHeter Omaha, NE
    edited November 2019
     :| 
  • I was at a friends house over the weekend and we started talking about religion. I was citing all of the abhorrent shit in the bible and he and his wife argued that they don’t believe in any of that, and if they choose to follow just the positive aspects of their religion, what’s the harm in potentially believing something that’s false? Two things: one they attend a church that is extremely anti gay but the church markets itself as inclusive, all-are-welcome. Having the cherry picking mindset gives the person the false impression that they aren’t causing harm to the groups traditionally oppressed by Christianity so they won’t work to speak out against those atrocities. Second, the “positive parts” of Christianity can be had with a secular world view, so religions don’t own moral systems, they pretend to be the arbiters of morality.
    Eine FrauDee
  • gguenot said:
    Second, the “positive parts” of Christianity can be had with a secular world view, so religions don’t own moral systems, they pretend to be the arbiters of morality.
    Of course non-religious people can...

    1. Know right from wrong...
    2. Be motivated to do right and avoid doing wrong, and...
    3. Be good people.

    That said...

    I. It is hard to underscore just how much literally every person in the West has been influenced - for good or for ill -  by the Judeo-Christian tradition. Perhaps we would have arrived at  the beliefs and values you champion (e.g. the value and dignity of all human lives) had Judaism or Christianity never happened, but I see little to no evidence that this is the case.

    II. The worldview of many (though of course not all) non-religious people lacks any metaphysical grounding in order for there to be actual right and actual wrong. On their worldview, morality is essentially reducible to preference. This - in my anecdotal experience - drives people towards a religious worldview more than anything else.
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited November 2019
    There might actually be a metaphysical morality we all derive from outside of the concept of a God, like a law of nature. I'm not making that claim because I have no evidence for it, yet I wonder why it doesn't appeal to the type of people who think we need/have to have some metaphysical grounding.

    Morality is about maximizing well being; it's not personal preference.

    I think even Christianity derives its morality from that paradigm, as evidenced by the fact that Christian morality has changed over the centuries as our understanding of maximizing well being has changed. ie, American Christians no longer think slavery is moral, but ancient Jews were all about buying slaves, selling slaves, punishing slaves, as evidenced by their codified laws (references available upon request). A more recent example would be some Christians no longer thinking homosexuality is immoral.

    Here's a video from last week that compares Christian morality to secular morality and really impressed me with how simple it makes this, if anyone is interested.




  • JaimieT said:
    There might actually be a metaphysical morality we all derive from outside of the concept of a God, like a law of nature. I'm not making that claim because I have no evidence for it, yet I wonder why it doesn't appeal to the type of people who think we need/have to have some metaphysical grounding.
    Agreed. Atheism doesn't entail Nihilism. But, (and take this with all the grains of salt), I'm fairly convinced that physicalism (the view that all that exists it the physical world) does.

    Why does this issue lead more people towards theism (as opposed to some other metaphysical view)? That's an interesting question.
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    JaimieT said:
    There might actually be a metaphysical morality we all derive from outside of the concept of a God, like a law of nature. I'm not making that claim because I have no evidence for it, yet I wonder why it doesn't appeal to the type of people who think we need/have to have some metaphysical grounding.
    Agreed. Atheism doesn't entail Nihilism. But, (and take this with all the grains of salt), I'm fairly convinced that physicalism (the view that all that exists it the physical world) does.

    Why does this issue lead more people towards theism (as opposed to some other metaphysical view)? That's an interesting question.

    Granting for a moment it's true that morality leads more people towards theism, why is the "why" interesting to you? 
  • JaimieT said:
    Granting for a moment it's true that morality leads more people towards theism, why is the "why" interesting to you? 
    Hmmm, well. I guess it's because the answers to philosophical questions are not demonstrable. So, widespread patterns of intuition towards one idea as opposed to another is a bit of a mystery, I suppose.
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    edited November 2019
    JaimieT said:
    Granting for a moment it's true that morality leads more people towards theism, why is the "why" interesting to you? 
    Hmmm, well. I guess it's because the answers to philosophical questions are not demonstrable. So, widespread patterns of intuition towards one idea as opposed to another is a bit of a mystery, I suppose.

    So I'm hearing that you think people gravitate towards theism due to its moral structure (or explanation of morality, or whatever), but you think the reason people do that is a bit of a mystery?
  • ... are you trying to "Street Epistemology" me? :)
    JaimieTDJ_150Flukes
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    Do you have a problem with being street epistemology'ied?
    JoshuaHeterFlukes
  • @JaimieT ;

    ... just how many cans of worms do you want to open here? :#

  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    I mean, I was just signing up to get some kind of answer to that last question up there, and I'd still like one, but if you don't want to talk about that, that's fine (I don't mean that in a snide way). 
  • This is a empirical question (I suppose), and I haven't done the research, but in my anecdotal experience, people recognize that a physicalist worldview cannot ground morality (although, they might not put it that way). This leads them to believe in a general sort of theism (even though there is much disagreement over the details). Why that is is not immediately obvious.

    As for SE - I cannot / do not speak for everyone who uses that phrase, but - in my view - the originator of that term and his followers... in the sense that they are doing SE - I do not wish to be street epistemologied.

    I am interested in having good faith conversations with other people who are interested in and hopeful about arriving at the truth. That is not what those people are doing, again in my view. I am a theist, and a Christian, and I'm not *particularly* interested in having conversations with people who - based on those facts - believe that I have a mental illness.
    DJ_150
  • JaimieTJaimieT Atlanta, GA
    This is a empirical question (I suppose), and I haven't done the research, but in my anecdotal experience, people recognize that a physicalist worldview cannot ground morality (although, they might not put it that way). This leads them to believe in a general sort of theism (even though there is much disagreement over the details). Why that is is not immediately obvious.

    As for SE - I cannot / do not speak for everyone who uses that phrase, but - in my view - the originator of that term and his followers... in the sense that they are doing SE - I do not wish to be street epistemologied.

    I am interested in having good faith conversations with other people who are interested in and hopeful about arriving at the truth. That is not what those people are doing, again in my view. I am a theist, and a Christian, and I'm not *particularly* interested in having conversations with people who - based on those facts - believe that I have a mental illness.

    I'm not sure what part of this is an empirical question to you. Most of this is not empirical from where I'm standing, specifically the "why" of human behavior, but I think we're agreed on that.

    I'm glad you don't have a blanket dislike of questions, because I'd like to actually talk about the metaphysical morality thing and I don't want to waste time addressing something you don't even believe.

    This question, if you want to answer it, is complicated and I don't think we're getting over the first half of it. Assuming that people do indeed gravitate towards theism because of its moral structure, why is that interesting to you? 

    Or if you don't want to answer why you personally find that interesting, perhaps tell me what such a thing might indicate.


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