I just made a bet on draftkings that this show will have a second season, not saying soon, but at some point.
Yahya Abdul-Mateen II who plays Cal/Dr M. is doing such a great job, I feel like it has to be hard to play a character like Dr M. Apparently he is in Matrix 4, to what extent I don't know but hope its a bigger role.
I'm not sure how many of you also watch Rick and Morty... But what if Dr Manhattan is also using his abilities as a Death Crystal, and is using his existence to get the best outcome of his own life? Probably not, but just fun to ponder
I made the joke in the chat last night that we won't get Lube Man in the finale and he'll just talk about it in the Peteypedia. I'm pretty sure he just did that. Fogdancing in Tulsa.
I saw this on Reddit and thought it was spot on: "Jon fell in love with Angela because when his death was inevitable she still fought for him even though it was for nothing. When Jon was about to become Dr.Manhattan, his last moments with human emotion Janey left the room because she knew he would die and there was nothing she could do and couldn't watch"
I’m sure I’m not the only one to have thought this but this was basically the same conceit as “The Constant” from Lost which is probably my favorite episode of television ever. Lindelof always has these crazy sci-fi elements in his shows, but ultimately all of them boil down to a fundamental love story, and I think that’s really beautiful.
It’s Dec 9, 2019 and Alan Sepinwall mentions The Constant in his Rolling Stone review. It’s also my favorite episode of television.
So Dr Manhattan uses future knowledge as the entire foundation of his relationship with Angela but can't evaporate a few trucks from inside the house or whatever. Why does Angela have to walk out there and shoot any of them when he is there? Is there any reason for a god weapon who single handedly won a war to just not bother handling an obvious threat like this without getting like three feet away from them to do some hand zaps and then turning his back to a gigantic Nazi laser?
Ok I’ll need some clarification. Why exactly did DM choose Angela of all people in the world? Completely random?
Or did it need to be her to get everything set in motion for the things to come? Like doctor strange in the avengers.
It's impossible to really get any clarification with Dr. Manhattan. The answer to every question is because that's the way it happened.
He's both the most powerful and the most inconsequential being in the universe at the same time
I think Dr. M views things like a movie. You’ve seen Star Wars. You’ve enjoyed parts. You remember all of the movie at the same time. You certainly can’t change how the movie goes.
I asked, “Her?” But then I think about what most people would do if their SO was a god. No problems. Unlimited wealth.
While I don't see The Watchmen as better as The Leftovers, this episode was Lindelof at his best. The fact that Angela is the one that put the notion of Judd being part of the Seventh Cavalry and a former clan member all along was mind blowing. That along with everything else that's happened this episode definitely puts this in a top 10 if not top 5 for sure for single episodes of television. It sucks knowing that there's only 1 episode left and Lindelof probably won't be a part of season 2. I've got my fingers crossed that he changes his mind.
So Dr Manhattan uses future knowledge as the entire foundation of his relationship with Angela but can't evaporate a few trucks from inside the house or whatever. Why does Angela have to walk out there and shoot any of them when he is there? Is there any reason for a god weapon who single handedly won a war to just not bother handling an obvious threat like this without getting like three feet away from them to do some hand zaps and then turning his back to a gigantic Nazi laser?
It's not that Dr M can't evaporate the trucks or that Angela has to walk out and shoot them...it's that he doesn't evaporate the trucks and Angela does walk out and shoot them. Just like he knew that the Viet Nam war would come with regrets, but did it anyway (and did it in a way that didn't curb those regrets). He experiences time in a non-linear fashion, that lets him know what will happen - not allow him to change what will happen.
The triumph of this episode, maybe the whole series, is Lindelof bringing something refreshing to the time travel gimmick. Anyone who’s watched enough Movies and TV knows when its done well and when its pure dreck. This was done well and felt completely unique.
After this week you have to retcon everything Angela has done this season, yes?
So Dr Manhattan uses future knowledge as the entire foundation of his relationship with Angela but can't evaporate a few trucks from inside the house or whatever. Why does Angela have to walk out there and shoot any of them when he is there? Is there any reason for a god weapon who single handedly won a war to just not bother handling an obvious threat like this without getting like three feet away from them to do some hand zaps and then turning his back to a gigantic Nazi laser?
It's not that Dr M can't evaporate the trucks or that Angela has to walk out and shoot them...it's that he doesn't evaporate the trucks and Angela does walk out and shoot them. Just like he knew that the Viet Nam war would come with regrets, but did it anyway (and did it in a way that didn't curb those regrets). He experiences time in a non-linear fashion, that lets him know what will happen - not allow him to change what will happen.
I get that but why would it happen that way in the first place? Everything else he does makes some sort of sense for why he would make that decision in the moment even if he knows it's the wrong one or he'll regret it in the future. Standing around making waffles while his lover goes to confront a bunch of masked gunmen and then just wandering haplessly in front of the laser seemed like it made no sense unless he knows he has to get blasted by it for some reason.
This episode was eggsellent. I really like the idea that Will Reeves eats Dr. M's powers. I'm feeling that. Also I think Agent Dale Petey is Lube Man and I feel like it will play some crucial point in the Finale. “We're all puppets, Laurie. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings.” All his God power and can't change fate. "Don't all love stories technically end in tragedy?" So good!
Why do we need to see Dr. M walk on water? He says Angela needs to see it but of course Lindelof is saying the audience needs to see it. So that will definitely be a thing in the Finale.
What is with the horseshoe? Everyone find someone that loves you as much as Ozzymandius loves a horseshoe!
So Dr Manhattan uses future knowledge as the entire foundation of his relationship with Angela but can't evaporate a few trucks from inside the house or whatever. Why does Angela have to walk out there and shoot any of them when he is there? Is there any reason for a god weapon who single handedly won a war to just not bother handling an obvious threat like this without getting like three feet away from them to do some hand zaps and then turning his back to a gigantic Nazi laser?
It's not that Dr M can't evaporate the trucks or that Angela has to walk out and shoot them...it's that he doesn't evaporate the trucks and Angela does walk out and shoot them. Just like he knew that the Viet Nam war would come with regrets, but did it anyway (and did it in a way that didn't curb those regrets). He experiences time in a non-linear fashion, that lets him know what will happen - not allow him to change what will happen.
I get that but why would it happen that way in the first place? Everything else he does makes some sort of sense for why he would make that decision in the moment even if he knows it's the wrong one or he'll regret it in the future. Standing around making waffles while his lover goes to confront a bunch of masked gunmen and then just wandering haplessly in front of the laser seemed like it made no sense unless he knows he has to get blasted by it for some reason.
I think you answered the big overall question with your last sentence. Somehow he knows he has to get blasted by it. For what reason we don't know but I'm guessing we'll get some kind of answer to that next week.
So Dr Manhattan uses future knowledge as the entire foundation of his relationship with Angela but can't evaporate a few trucks from inside the house or whatever. Why does Angela have to walk out there and shoot any of them when he is there? Is there any reason for a god weapon who single handedly won a war to just not bother handling an obvious threat like this without getting like three feet away from them to do some hand zaps and then turning his back to a gigantic Nazi laser?
It's not that Dr M can't evaporate the trucks or that Angela has to walk out and shoot them...it's that he doesn't evaporate the trucks and Angela does walk out and shoot them. Just like he knew that the Viet Nam war would come with regrets, but did it anyway (and did it in a way that didn't curb those regrets). He experiences time in a non-linear fashion, that lets him know what will happen - not allow him to change what will happen.
I get that but why would it happen that way in the first place? Everything else he does makes some sort of sense for why he would make that decision in the moment even if he knows it's the wrong one or he'll regret it in the future. Standing around making waffles while his lover goes to confront a bunch of masked gunmen and then just wandering haplessly in front of the laser seemed like it made no sense unless he knows he has to get blasted by it for some reason.
He's not omnipotent in that he knows and sees all things at all times, he simply knows what will happen and experiences time in a non-linear fashion. If you were to isolate him in his present time (even though no such thing exists for him) he doesn't have knowledge beyond his locality, so when he's making waffles he doesn't know that there are gunmen outside etc. he only knows that because he knows what will happen. So...while he's making waffles he doesn't know what IS happening, he simply knows in the present what WILL happen - including what is happening in that moment. It's like he has a memory but from the future, not the past.
Watch a movie. Then watch it again. Knowing how the movie will end doesn't give you the power to change the story. Things still happen as they happen, you just know it beforehand now. His non-linear experience of time is like him watching his own movie. The story is what it is. Having a more full and complete knowledge of the story, the ability to project 'future' wisdom into the past or present etc doesn't change the story...it just means that he can pick which part of the DVD his laser is focused on at any given time.
I don't want to get too science noodly, but the writers are playing off of two quantum theories - the Copenhagen and the Many Worlds interpretations - and what they mean in terms of causality and/or vs determinism.
@CretanBullI Yea I get the non linear experiencing time thing, my issue is with how he acts in the moment with what he does know. Angela tells him the 7K are outside and he can see the trucks and the guys. He knows what Angela is doing when she loads her gun and heads out there. He knows that he needs to help her. I just don't get why he went about helping her the way that he did. I don't want to waste too much more board space on this cause it doesn't seem like anyone else has a problem with this but it just didn't make sense to me.
@CretanBullI Yea I get the non linear experiencing time thing, my issue is with how he acts in the moment with what he does know. Angela tells him the 7K are outside and he can see the trucks and the guys. He knows what Angela is doing when she loads her gun and heads out there. He knows that he needs to help her. I just don't get why he went about helping her the way that he did. I don't want to waste too much more board space on this cause it doesn't seem like anyone else has a problem with this but it just didn't make sense to me.
He knows all of that. He also knows how it ends. He can't change, stop or prevent that. This is what happens - it's the determinism of the Many Worlds interpretation of quantum theory. He knew when they met that this is how it ends. If you're going to question how he acts in the moment, why not question why he was even there that night? Why wasn't he on a beach in Jamaica when the baddies surrounded his house with a weapon that could kill him? Because that's not what happens. He knows what happens, but can't change it.
So the answer to "why didn't he do 'x'?" or "why didn't he do 'x' differently?" the answer is always the same...because that's not what happens. Several times we see him injecting some wisdom from the future into his present..what we're seeing in the kitchen while he's making waffles is that future wisdom being injected into that moment (without the narration that we got earlier in the episode where he does the same thing). It's him surrendering to/understanding/accepting his pre-determined fate. He knows what happens - he doesn't determine or shape the future, he's locked into it.
There was a *lot* of information to absorb in this episode. I'm definitely going to need to do a rewatch to understand it all. It was good though (as per usual for Lindelof)!
Comments
I just made a bet on draftkings that this show will have a second season, not saying soon, but at some point.
Yahya Abdul-Mateen II who plays Cal/Dr M. is doing such a great job, I feel like it has to be hard to play a character like Dr M. Apparently he is in Matrix 4, to what extent I don't know but hope its a bigger role.
After this week you have to retcon everything Angela has done this season, yes?
This episode was eggsellent. I really like the idea that Will Reeves eats Dr. M's powers. I'm feeling that. Also I think Agent Dale Petey is Lube Man and I feel like it will play some crucial point in the Finale. “We're all puppets, Laurie. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings.” All his God power and can't change fate. "Don't all love stories technically end in tragedy?" So good!
Why do we need to see Dr. M walk on water? He says Angela needs to see it but of course Lindelof is saying the audience needs to see it. So that will definitely be a thing in the Finale.
What is with the horseshoe? Everyone find someone that loves you as much as Ozzymandius loves a horseshoe!
He's not omnipotent in that he knows and sees all things at all times, he simply knows what will happen and experiences time in a non-linear fashion. If you were to isolate him in his present time (even though no such thing exists for him) he doesn't have knowledge beyond his locality, so when he's making waffles he doesn't know that there are gunmen outside etc. he only knows that because he knows what will happen. So...while he's making waffles he doesn't know what IS happening, he simply knows in the present what WILL happen - including what is happening in that moment. It's like he has a memory but from the future, not the past.
Watch a movie. Then watch it again. Knowing how the movie will end doesn't give you the power to change the story. Things still happen as they happen, you just know it beforehand now. His non-linear experience of time is like him watching his own movie. The story is what it is. Having a more full and complete knowledge of the story, the ability to project 'future' wisdom into the past or present etc doesn't change the story...it just means that he can pick which part of the DVD his laser is focused on at any given time.
I don't want to get too science noodly, but the writers are playing off of two quantum theories - the Copenhagen and the Many Worlds interpretations - and what they mean in terms of causality and/or vs determinism.
So the answer to "why didn't he do 'x'?" or "why didn't he do 'x' differently?" the answer is always the same...because that's not what happens. Several times we see him injecting some wisdom from the future into his present..what we're seeing in the kitchen while he's making waffles is that future wisdom being injected into that moment (without the narration that we got earlier in the episode where he does the same thing). It's him surrendering to/understanding/accepting his pre-determined fate. He knows what happens - he doesn't determine or shape the future, he's locked into it.