I love debates about free will, but I think this is more of a plot issue. Dr. Manhattan is a plot-breaker so you have to manufacture a limitation for there to be credible conflict. This show uses Tachyons as a vague limitation that works however it needs to similarly to how the light of the yellow sun (or lack thereof) and kryptonite are used to create conflict in Superman stories.
None of these limitations are very consistent within their narratives, but it’s the price you have to pay for having a character like Dr. Manhattan or Superman in a story.
The yellow sun thing is ludicrous on its face. What about during the night, or indoors, or how his outfits only expose his hands and his head to the sun whether he’s in costume or not, is he weaker in the morning, why isn’t his super costume just a speedo or no clothing at all so if can get as much as possible, etc.
I enjoy the show because of its characters and themes. I don’t think you should look to Watchmen for any kind of hard-SciFi consistency.
I get what you're saying, and the fact that it is limiting might be a plot convenience for the writers, but the idea that in spite of all of his power that Dr Manhattan is still bound to a pre-determined future isn't inconsistent with his narrative at all...it's the logical consequence of the quantum theory that he's the living embodiment of.
That framework would work if they applied it consistently, but they don’t.
The whole tachyon thing related to the initial squid attack is hard to explain in a way consistent with the tachyon thing related to the 10-year-tunnel-of-love as Jim was struggling with on the full cast.
He can’t use information from the future to act in the past/present because it’s all already written. That also doesn’t fit the squid narrative with the attack having to be hidden to avoid his taking action. It doesn’t fit his asking Will in the past the question from Angela about Judd from the future. It doesn’t fit his acting on his future love for Angela in the past at the bar. It doesn’t fit with his apparent planning with Will to address disposition of his unborn adopted kids when he gets teleported in the future,
These are a few of the actions that he took based on future knowledge that had a direct effect on future events. I’m sure there are others.
It isn’t detracting from my enjoyment of the show or anything, but it’s a fair criticism if you’re trying to take it as anything other than super-hero-movie rules.
Those aren't inconsistencies at all. Past, present and future are states that we apply to our experience of time. Those things don't exist for him, he's experiencing all time simultaneously. He's a quantum particle in the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum theory. He doesn't exist in one state or another, but in all possible states at once. Whether we're experiencing him in our past, present or future he's in his own present-time perpetually...but his present-time spans the totality of his entire lifetime. While we push forward in time second by second, he's constantly pushing sideways every second of his existence. In each second that we move forward, he is being born, dying and doing the zillions of things that people do in between those events during the course of their lifetimes.
To him, there is no 'future knowledge' - it's all concurrent. The outcome is predetermined. Whatever he does or doesn't do is his part in why the outcome is what it is. That doesn't mean that people can't - for example - hide things from him in their own present in order to write their part of (what we experience as) the future.
When he can do self-contained-recursive-loopy-stuff like use his future information about Judd’s death by Will’s hand to cause Judd’s death by Will’s hand, then constructs against his ability to change the timeline are very hand-wavy to me. He created this event solely because he had the power to experience and communicate future events in the past, so to say he can do it with this event and not with other events is arbitrary rather than a constraint of his nature.
Comes down to that he did X because he did it, or he didn’t do Y because he didn’t do it. His constraints are bounded solely by what is convenient for the writers.
When he can do self-contained-recursive-loopy-stuff like use his future information about Judd’s death by Will’s hand to cause Judd’s death by Will’s hand, then constructs against his ability to change the timeline are very hand-wavy to me. He created this event solely because he had the power to experience and communicate future events in the past, so to say he can do it with this event and not with other events is arbitrary rather than a constraint of his nature.
Comes down to that he did X because he did it, or he didn’t do Y because he didn’t do it. His constraints are bounded solely by what is convenient for the writers.
I think the complication is the idea that he used future knowledge of Judd's death to cause Judd's death. That wasn't future knowledge...those two events (and zillions of other events) were all happening simultaneously....he was both learning about and causing Judd's death at the exact same time.
If you've never looked into quantum mechanics and have some spare time to nerd-out, do a little reading or watch some Youtube videos about it - specifically, quantum entanglement, the double-slit experiment, the quantum eraser experiment, the Copenhagen interpretation and the Many Worlds interpretation. Dr. Manhattan is essentially a Copenhagen quantum particle trapped (for lack of a better word) in a deterministic Many Worlds existence. He is all possibilities at all times, perpetually being collapsed into a particular moment by an observer.
I just don't understand how he responds to stimuli in the "present." When he's hungry he can make waffles, but he sees a tachyon cannon in the street and he reacts the way he does in this episode. At a certain point, he has information in the present to get out of the situation but instead he either:
Just acts stupidly
Cannot act on it because his body is on a (randomly?) predetermined (by the writers) rail, that causes him to act uncharacteristically given the present situation
Or, knows he needs to get blasted because of future information
The first two seem like bad writing to me. Maybe there is some nuance there where it makes sense theoretically in a way I don't understand, but I don't know that that absolves the writers.
I think I'm ok with the last one. I didn't have an issue with any of the bar scenes and him using the future to connect with Angela, teleport the kids, etc. But that doesn't seem to jive with how people are describing his abilities and maybe has issues with the tachyons.
The first part of the season I felt like the actor portraying Cal was just bad. He seemed like a one dimensional “hot husband.” Like a Disney Prince or a guy from a Hallmark Christmas movie. But after this episode, now I think his might be the best performance of the show. I can’t wait to go back and watch him knowing what we know now.
It’s amazing what an actor can do with their character when they know what they’re building up to, as opposed to show runners who just spring it in them in the final scripts (yeah, guess that wound is still raw.)
I don't mean this in a pedantic way, but it wouldn't be that he 'needs' that to happen, but rather because that is what happens...if he's imposing his will on predetermination the narrative falls apart.
I just don't understand how he responds to stimuli in the "present." When he's hungry he can make waffles, but he sees a tachyon cannon in the street and he reacts the way he does in this episode. At a certain point, he has information in the present to get out of the situation but instead he either:
Just acts stupidly
Cannot act on it because his body is on a (randomly?) predetermined (by the writers) rail, that causes him to act uncharacteristically given the present situation
Or, knows he needs to get blasted because of future information
The first two seem like bad writing to me. Maybe there is some nuance there where it makes sense theoretically in a way I don't understand, but I don't know that that absolves the writers.
I think I'm ok with the last one. I didn't have an issue with any of the bar scenes and him using the future to connect with Angela, teleport the kids, etc. But that doesn't seem to jive with how people are describing his abilities and maybe has issues with the tachyons.
It's not bad writing, it's just difficult to wrap your head around it. He can't act on events that haven't happened yet because they haven't happened yet and won't happen if he acts on them. Since they did happen, it only makes sense that he didn't do anything to change them. He experiences everything simultaneously.
He doesn't know something is going to happen in the future. The future is happening to him at the same time the present is. He's hungry so he makes waffles, just like he gets transported because he was surprised that the dude was still alive.
The only counterpoint that I've seen brought up that seems like it might be a legit mistake is his conversation with Hooded Justice and planning for him to take the kids.
I know this is a dead horse, but if he doesn’t know that something is going to happen in the future, then what about giving Angela a rundown of how they will have a 10 year relationship that will end in tragedy, and they will have a fight six months in the future where she’ll ask him to leave, etc. And asking Will about Judd because he was asked that question by Angela more than 10yrs in the future.
I understand quantum theory better than most laypeople, the Great Courses available on Audible covering it and another one covering the nature of time are excellent, but they’re not consistent with application of that paradigm. I don’t think they’re trying to be so I think the ret-coning to try to make it fit is counterproductive.
This is a comic book show and should be taken on that level. I mean we’re dealing with psychic squid, permeable climate-controlled snow-globe habitations on Europa, teleportation, tachyons, intrinsic fields, pills that contain memories (and commercials), lube man, levitating aircraft, etc. Why would we expect a rigorous and consistent application of quantum theory?
I don't mean this in a pedantic way, but it wouldn't be that he 'needs' that to happen, but rather because that is what happens...if he's imposing his will on predetermination the narrative falls apart.
I was emphasizing "needs" to say that there is reasoning to it. He knows he has to die for something to happen, just like he knows he needs to talk to Hood Justice so he can transport the kids. He can't change what happens cause he was always going to have those reasons.
Otherwise, what are we watching? A series of predetermined events that "are what happened" and have the coincidental appearance of cause and effect but only when convenient? Is that compelling?
I know this is a dead horse, but if he doesn’t know that something is going to happen in the future, then what about giving Angela a rundown of how they will have a 10 year relationship that will end in tragedy, and they will have a fight six months in the future where she’ll ask him to leave, etc. And asking Will about Judd because he was asked that question by Angela more than 10yrs in the future.
The thing you're not grasping is there is no future for him. Everything is the now. The conversation with Angela, the 10-year relationship, the tragic end, their fight in six months, the conversation with Will, they're all happening at the same time for him. He can answer questions about what's happening because it's happening at the same time for him. The conversation with Will and the conversation with Angela are happening at the exact same time.
He's not jumping to different points in time, so why would he be able to change anything? There's no opportunity to do anything because once he's experienced it, it's already happened. You need to stop thinking of things in the future.
Compare him to Angela. At any one point in Angela's life, there are things that have happened in her past, things are are happening at that exact moment, and things that will happen in the future. For Dr. Manhattan, everything that has, is, and will happen is happening at that exact moment.
Otherwise, what are we watching? A series of predetermined events that "are what happened" and have the coincidental appearance of cause and effect but only when convenient? Is that compelling?
There are a lot of people that would describe real life that way.
And really, every show ever is predetermined and just shows what happened. They can very much still be quite compelling. We just don't have character pointing it out for us.
If your life was 100% predetermined and nothing you did could ever change anything, would it matter if you didn't know?
I just don't understand how he responds to stimuli in the "present." When he's hungry he can make waffles, but he sees a tachyon cannon in the street and he reacts the way he does in this episode. At a certain point, he has information in the present to get out of the situation but instead he either:
Just acts stupidly
Cannot act on it because his body is on a (randomly?) predetermined (by the writers) rail, that causes him to act uncharacteristically given the present situation
Or, knows he needs to get blasted because of future information
The first two seem like bad writing to me. Maybe there is some nuance there where it makes sense theoretically in a way I don't understand, but I don't know that that absolves the writers.
I think I'm ok with the last one. I didn't have an issue with any of the bar scenes and him using the future to connect with Angela, teleport the kids, etc. But that doesn't seem to jive with how people are describing his abilities and maybe has issues with the tachyons.
It's not bad writing, it's just difficult to wrap your head around it. He can't act on events that haven't happened yet because they haven't happened yet and won't happen if he acts on them. Since they did happen, it only makes sense that he didn't do anything to change them. He experiences everything simultaneously.
He doesn't know something is going to happen in the future. The future is happening to him at the same time the present is. He's hungry so he makes waffles, just like he gets transported because he was surprised that the dude was still alive.
The only counterpoint that I've seen brought up that seems like it might be a legit mistake is his conversation with Hooded Justice and planning for him to take the kids.
I know this is a dead horse, but if he doesn’t know that something is going to happen in the future, then what about giving Angela a rundown of how they will have a 10 year relationship that will end in tragedy, and they will have a fight six months in the future where she’ll ask him to leave, etc. And asking Will about Judd because he was asked that question by Angela more than 10yrs in the future.
The thing you're not grasping is there is no future for him. Everything is the now. The conversation with Angela, the 10-year relationship, the tragic end, their fight in six months, the conversation with Will, they're all happening at the same time for him. He can answer questions about what's happening because it's happening at the same time for him. The conversation with Will and the conversation with Angela are happening at the exact same time.
He's not jumping to different points in time, so why would he be able to change anything? There's no opportunity to do anything because once he's experienced it, it's already happened. You need to stop thinking of things in the future.
Compare him to Angela. At any one point in Angela's life, there are things that have happened in her past, things are are happening at that exact moment, and things that will happen in the future. For Dr. Manhattan, everything that has, is, and will happen is happening at that exact moment.
You've explained what I've been trying to, but much more concisely!
I just want to thank the several people that have been jumping in here discussing all aspects of this episode. I know absolutely nothing of all these theories and different things being referenced and some of this stuff goes wizzing way over my head but I now understand on a very basic level why Dr. Manhattan did what he did and I can be okay with it. This is some very complicated shit and huge props to Lindelof for creating an episode this deep and full of this kind of stuff. I can't wait for the finale but also am dreading it because it means this fantastic ride is over....for now hopefully.
Otherwise, what are we watching? A series of predetermined events that "are what happened" and have the coincidental appearance of cause and effect but only when convenient? Is that compelling?
There are a lot of people that would describe real life that way.
And really, every show ever is predetermined and just shows what happened. They can very much still be quite compelling. We just don't have character pointing it out for us.
If your life was 100% predetermined and nothing you did could ever change anything, would it matter if you didn't know?
No? I don't see what that has to do with anything. My life would not be a compelling TV show! A lot of TV shows are poorly written. Like I said just because this is theoretically sound, it doesn't absolve the writers.
Why is anyone with anyone? Clearly he was watching her and liked something about her.
My feelings on it and you're allowed 1-3 incredible coincidences per concept. The current thing I'm writing has one. I won't judge. I'd love to see a breakdown at the end about how many Watchmen has, but beggars can't be choosers.
Why is anyone with anyone? Clearly he was watching her and liked something about her.
My feelings on it and you're allowed 1-3 incredible coincidences per concept. The current thing I'm writing has one. I won't judge. I'd love to see a breakdown at the end about how many Watchmen has, but beggars can't be choosers.
I agree with that. Coincidences can be very annoying. But I don't think it's a coincidence that Dr Manhattan fell in love with the star of the show. She's the star of the show because she fell in love with Dr Manhattan.
Otherwise, what are we watching? A series of predetermined events that "are what happened" and have the coincidental appearance of cause and effect but only when convenient? Is that compelling?
There are a lot of people that would describe real life that way.
And really, every show ever is predetermined and just shows what happened. They can very much still be quite compelling. We just don't have character pointing it out for us.
If your life was 100% predetermined and nothing you did could ever change anything, would it matter if you didn't know?
No? I don't see what that has to do with anything. My life would not be a compelling TV show! A lot of TV shows are poorly written. Like I said just because this is theoretically sound, it doesn't absolve the writers.
The point is whether or not something is compelling or not has nothing to do if it's predetermined. Everything we watch is predetermined, and there's still a whole bunch of well written compelling shows. It only stops being compelling when we know what's going to happen. This is the same reason why Dr. Manhattan doesn't find anything compelling.
Why is anyone with anyone? Clearly he was watching her and liked something about her.
My feelings on it and you're allowed 1-3 incredible coincidences per concept. The current thing I'm writing has one. I won't judge. I'd love to see a breakdown at the end about how many Watchmen has, but beggars can't be choosers.
I agree with that. Coincidences can be very annoying. But I don't think it's a coincidence that Dr Manhattan fell in love with the star of the show. She's the star of the show because she fell in love with Dr Manhattan.
This is something I can get pedantic about like CretanBull with determinism lol. Technically -- and technicalities are still very important -- it's also a coincidence that the kind of person that DM falls in love with is also the kind of person who can carry a TV show. So you can say that, but the coincidence goes deeper. IIRC, I've drilled this one down a few levels...
Otherwise, what are we watching? A series of predetermined events that "are what happened" and have the coincidental appearance of cause and effect but only when convenient? Is that compelling?
There are a lot of people that would describe real life that way.
And really, every show ever is predetermined and just shows what happened. They can very much still be quite compelling. We just don't have character pointing it out for us.
If your life was 100% predetermined and nothing you did could ever change anything, would it matter if you didn't know?
No? I don't see what that has to do with anything. My life would not be a compelling TV show! A lot of TV shows are poorly written. Like I said just because this is theoretically sound, it doesn't absolve the writers.
The point is whether or not something is compelling or not has nothing to do if it's predetermined. Everything we watch is predetermined, and there's still a whole bunch of well written compelling shows. It only stops being compelling when we know what's going to happen. This is the same reason why Dr. Manhattan doesn't find anything compelling.
Can someone tell me why the fuck DM is with Angela? (I stopped watching the show and this is hard to find on reddit.) Much appreciated.
I like to think that she’s his “type” because she has gone through so much unlikely tragedy and was able to overcome it. Angela’s parents were murdered in front of her, she was left with no family in an awful orphanage, then she was found by her long lost grandmother and started to connect with her past and her family again only for her grandmother to drop dead during her rescue.
Similar to his fascination with Lori Blake and her crazy life of unlikely coincidences.
Edit: Also has the unknown “mask” connection with Hooded Justice like Lori had with the Comedian, and also became a “mask” without knowing about that connection. There are a lot of similarities between Angela and Lori when you think about it.
Anyone else ever see Coherence? If you liked this episode and movies like Primer, which Jim and A.Ron have mentioned multiple times, you should check out Coherence.
Anyone else ever see Coherence? If you liked this episode and movies like Primer, which Jim and A.Ron have mentioned multiple times, you should check out Coherence.
I saw it, and agree it’s of a piece. I’d add I’ll Follow You Down and Predestination, with a side order of Another Earth for great indie movies with similar themes.
Also interesting to think of Doctor Manhattan living on the DL as a loose parallel to The Man from Earth, which was covered as a Bald Movie commission back in the day.
Why is anyone with anyone? Clearly he was watching her and liked something about her.
My feelings on it and you're allowed 1-3 incredible coincidences per concept. The current thing I'm writing has one. I won't judge. I'd love to see a breakdown at the end about how many Watchmen has, but beggars can't be choosers.
I agree with that. Coincidences can be very annoying. But I don't think it's a coincidence that Dr Manhattan fell in love with the star of the show. She's the star of the show because she fell in love with Dr Manhattan.
This is something I can get pedantic about like CretanBull with determinism lol. Technically -- and technicalities are still very important -- it's also a coincidence that the kind of person that DM falls in love with is also the kind of person who can carry a TV show. So you can say that, but the coincidence goes deeper. IIRC, I've drilled this one down a few levels...
I would say it's more satisfying that he fell in love with someone who could carry a show. Whoever he fell in with would have been at the center of this story anyway since he was the guiding force for almost everything that has happened in the show so far.
I will grant though they don't spend much (if any) time saying how he came to know her, choose her whatever. I guess she just always was that person so we have to accept it. Obviously if you have eyeballs or have paid attention at all, it's obvious why someone would fall in love with Angela as she is an amazing badass.
This is the same reason why Dr. Manhattan doesn't find anything compelling.
Except Angela.
For now.
Dr Manhattan has already stepped out on two people he loved or thought were compelling. Leopard don't change it's spots. Once he get bored he'll move on, if he lives.
Comments
To him, there is no 'future knowledge' - it's all concurrent. The outcome is predetermined. Whatever he does or doesn't do is his part in why the outcome is what it is. That doesn't mean that people can't - for example - hide things from him in their own present in order to write their part of (what we experience as) the future.
When he can do self-contained-recursive-loopy-stuff like use his future information about Judd’s death by Will’s hand to cause Judd’s death by Will’s hand, then constructs against his ability to change the timeline are very hand-wavy to me. He created this event solely because he had the power to experience and communicate future events in the past, so to say he can do it with this event and not with other events is arbitrary rather than a constraint of his nature.
Comes down to that he did X because he did it, or he didn’t do Y because he didn’t do it. His constraints are bounded solely by what is convenient for the writers.
If you've never looked into quantum mechanics and have some spare time to nerd-out, do a little reading or watch some Youtube videos about it - specifically, quantum entanglement, the double-slit experiment, the quantum eraser experiment, the Copenhagen interpretation and the Many Worlds interpretation. Dr. Manhattan is essentially a Copenhagen quantum particle trapped (for lack of a better word) in a deterministic Many Worlds existence. He is all possibilities at all times, perpetually being collapsed into a particular moment by an observer.
- Just acts stupidly
- Cannot act on it because his body is on a (randomly?) predetermined (by the writers) rail, that causes him to act uncharacteristically given the present situation
- Or, knows he needs to get blasted because of future information
The first two seem like bad writing to me. Maybe there is some nuance there where it makes sense theoretically in a way I don't understand, but I don't know that that absolves the writers.I think I'm ok with the last one. I didn't have an issue with any of the bar scenes and him using the future to connect with Angela, teleport the kids, etc. But that doesn't seem to jive with how people are describing his abilities and maybe has issues with the tachyons.
He doesn't know something is going to happen in the future. The future is happening to him at the same time the present is. He's hungry so he makes waffles, just like he gets transported because he was surprised that the dude was still alive.
The only counterpoint that I've seen brought up that seems like it might be a legit mistake is his conversation with Hooded Justice and planning for him to take the kids.
I understand quantum theory better than most laypeople, the Great Courses available on Audible covering it and another one covering the nature of time are excellent, but they’re not consistent with application of that paradigm. I don’t think they’re trying to be so I think the ret-coning to try to make it fit is counterproductive.
This is a comic book show and should be taken on that level. I mean we’re dealing with psychic squid, permeable climate-controlled snow-globe habitations on Europa, teleportation, tachyons, intrinsic fields, pills that contain memories (and commercials), lube man, levitating aircraft, etc. Why would we expect a rigorous and consistent application of quantum theory?
Otherwise, what are we watching? A series of predetermined events that "are what happened" and have the coincidental appearance of cause and effect but only when convenient? Is that compelling?
He's not jumping to different points in time, so why would he be able to change anything? There's no opportunity to do anything because once he's experienced it, it's already happened. You need to stop thinking of things in the future.
Compare him to Angela. At any one point in Angela's life, there are things that have happened in her past, things are are happening at that exact moment, and things that will happen in the future. For Dr. Manhattan, everything that has, is, and will happen is happening at that exact moment.
And really, every show ever is predetermined and just shows what happened. They can very much still be quite compelling. We just don't have character pointing it out for us.
If your life was 100% predetermined and nothing you did could ever change anything, would it matter if you didn't know?
.... that's what I feared. (Hey, I still love the comic book! Otherwise I wouldn't care.)
My feelings on it and you're allowed 1-3 incredible coincidences per concept. The current thing I'm writing has one. I won't judge. I'd love to see a breakdown at the end about how many Watchmen has, but beggars can't be choosers.
This is something I can get pedantic about like CretanBull with determinism lol. Technically -- and technicalities are still very important -- it's also a coincidence that the kind of person that DM falls in love with is also the kind of person who can carry a TV show. So you can say that, but the coincidence goes deeper. IIRC, I've drilled this one down a few levels...
Except Angela.
Similar to his fascination with Lori Blake and her crazy life of unlikely coincidences.
Edit: Also has the unknown “mask” connection with Hooded Justice like Lori had with the Comedian, and also became a “mask” without knowing about that connection. There are a lot of similarities between Angela and Lori when you think about it.
I will grant though they don't spend much (if any) time saying how he came to know her, choose her whatever. I guess she just always was that person so we have to accept it. Obviously if you have eyeballs or have paid attention at all, it's obvious why someone would fall in love with Angela as she is an amazing badass.
For now.
Dr Manhattan has already stepped out on two people he loved or thought were compelling. Leopard don't change it's spots. Once he get bored he'll move on, if he lives.