This is what I meant when I said that I didn't want to get too noodly with the science
When it comes to Copenhagen vs Many Worlds, put me in the "stop thinking about it, start doing the math" Richard Feynman camp
More the Bohr camp Feynman's infinite paths are pretty noodly.
I'm generally a Deutschian. While we can never really "prove" many worlds beyond being an apt metaphor for mostly identical universes (we'll never be able to see the universe where we all have blue skin and walk on our hands because it's far outside any entanglement horizon), I see many worlds as having the best explanatory power and thus being the best thing to "believe" in the sense of having an intuition of how things work.
Like the two slit experiment. Many worlds doesn't require an invisible guided wave in this universe. Or a wave equation being somehow physical. It's just multiple universes interfering with each other.
Or "spooky action at a distance" entanglement. Again, nothing communicating faster than the speed of light. It's just that when you entangle two particles, you close off any paths to any universes where the particles are not coordinated. So even though reading one creates a "random" result, the universe of possible "random" results is limited to the entangled outcomes. There simply aren't universes where particle A has spin +x and particle B has spin -y. There's only xx, yy and zz universes.
That explanatory power works better than "shut up and do the math" because math is arbitrary. You can be shutting up and doing the wrong math.
Deutsch has a great analogy: heliocentrism. Contrary to popular myth, the church did not have a problem with heliocentrism so long as it was just a "mathematical convenience." Of course the solar system REALLY has the Earth at the center and an elaborate set of epicycles that just makes it APPEAR that the sun is at the center. This is why Copernicus and Kepler were not arrested. Galileo's crime was saying that the universe really is what the math makes it appear to be.
Now, does many worlds qualify? Maybe not. There are more problems with it (especially with its model of probability), but accepting it as the "story behind the math" makes it easier to grok how complex quantum interactions evolve. It sets a stage.
@Murderbear - "Obviously if you have eyeballs or have paid attention at all, it's obvious why someone would fall in love with Angela as she is an amazing badass."
Nothing about why Doctor Manhattan would do anything is obvious to me, since there is no precedent -- or not much precedent, only his past actions. And I find it extremely interesting, but alas.
@LordBy - Compelling point about similarities with Lori. Maybe I'd have a good explanation if I saw these events; maybe they play out with a certain je ne sais quoi. I personally always felt he got with Lori due to her proximity and her sweet young ass, because he ended up dumping older women, twice, so it seemed like an act of fucking convenience, but IDK.
@CapeGabe - Yeah, but why does he notice them in the first place? Okay, question: did he have some reason to notice Angela? Maybe that will be shown. Maybe she like, walks on water next episode at a moment when past him was paying attention to the future, and he was like "wow this woman can walk on water" and then he found her, and then he showed her how to walk on water to close the loop.
(Edit: oh sorry he's always paying attention to the future)
I think ep. 8 conveys everything beautifully, for me at least. "This is the moment," really got to me. Angela's love and steely determination to say, "fuck fate," and risk her life to fight the inevitable is what makes Dr. Manhattan fall in love with her. Making the heart of the story about love (and exploring the different kinds of love that can be unsatisfying) is very Lindelovian, and I love that.
This is a really good interview with Damon Lindelof (it's The Watch podcast). He's been saying from the beginning that this is Angela's story, and I was frustrated for a while because Angela felt rather opaque, and we were getting origin stories for other characters like Wade and Will but not her. When you realize they were holding back on Angela's story because they couldn't reveal Dr. Manhattan, it makes sense.
Damon said that Angela is behind the story for most of the season and is constantly going WTF at things like Lube Man, her car being lifted into the sky, everything Will & Judd, etc., but to mitigate her WTFery, they made Angela ahead of audience and even Dr. Manhattan himself, along with the power to act once she realizes the "tragedy" is approaching. I'm not sure if I love that structure, but it does make rewatching episodes even more rewarding. The way Angela tells Cal everything but does not explain herself (like when Cal asked her why she broke into the Cultural Center, she says, "Because I'm not acting rationally right now." Angela is freaking out but can't tell anyone). Or when Cal wants to open his Christmas gift early, it's endearing that Dr. Manhattan doesn't know what the gift is.
Apologies if this has been discussed, but Jim Beaver is going to be in the finale, right? Everything seems to have purpose, and there doesn't seem to be much of a purpose to his one scene unless he's one of the 7K or plays a part in that somehow.
@Murderbear - "Obviously if you have eyeballs or have paid attention at all, it's obvious why someone would fall in love with Angela as she is an amazing badass."
Nothing about why Doctor Manhattan would do anything is obvious to me, since there is no precedent -- or not much precedent, only his past actions. And I find it extremely interesting, but alas.
@LordBy - Compelling point about similarities with Lori. Maybe I'd have a good explanation if I saw these events; maybe they play out with a certain je ne sais quoi. I personally always felt he got with Lori due to her proximity and her sweet young ass, because he ended up dumping older women, twice, so it seemed like an act of fucking convenience, but IDK.
@CapeGabe - Yeah, but why does he notice them in the first place? Okay, question: did he have some reason to notice Angela? Maybe that will be shown. Maybe she like, walks on water next episode at a moment when past him was paying attention to the future, and he was like "wow this woman can walk on water" and then he found her, and then he showed her how to walk on water to close the loop.
(Edit: oh sorry he's always paying attention to the future)
Lol, I’m just saying he seems to have a type. I’m not saying that he won’t dump his current hook-up for the next one his type who strolls by with a sweeter younger ass.
I had a thought about when Cal saves Angela on the White Night - maybe Calhattan "zapping" the 7K guy is what made them start thinking Cal was Dr. Manhattan? That is kind of a missing piece - how did they find out about Cal? A lack of a 7K body in Angela's house would probably make them start looking into it. Cal's amnesia and lack of history with Angela prior to their move to Tulsa would probably trigger some thoughts as they were investigating. It would explain why Judd was staying close with Angela for years to keep an eye on her and Cal (though it does seem like they had a prior friendship as coworkers) while the 7K built their tachyon laser thingy. Maybe this is obvious but I only thought of it about a day after I watched the episode.
It would be good to get some closure on Judd's role in all of this. I would like to think he had a genuine friendship with Angela and he is a more complicated character than just a 7k racist but maybe not. There is a lot to wrap up in last episode. I don't know if they will be able to land everything but I do think it will be a satisfying finale.
I had a thought about when Cal saves Angela on the White Night - maybe Calhattan "zapping" the 7K guy is what made them start thinking Cal was Dr. Manhattan? That is kind of a missing piece - how did they find out about Cal? A lack of a 7K body in Angela's house would probably make them start looking into it. Cal's amnesia and lack of history with Angela prior to their move to Tulsa would probably trigger some thoughts as they were investigating. It would explain why Judd was staying close with Angela for years to keep an eye on her and Cal (though it does seem like they had a prior friendship as coworkers) while the 7K built their tachyon laser thingy. Maybe this is obvious but I only thought of it about a day after I watched the episode.
It would be good to get some closure on Judd's role in all of this. I would like to think he had a genuine friendship with Angela and he is a more complicated character than just a 7k racist but maybe not. There is a lot to wrap up in last episode. I don't know if they will be able to land everything but I do think it will be a satisfying finale.
That's a pretty big reach. They weren't looking for him and would have no reason to suspect him being in Tulsa. Everyone thought he was on Mars. There are hundreds of possible explanations for why one of their members went missing. Why would they jump to Dr. Manhattan must be hiding in Tulsa and exploded him?
As far as Tulsa is concerned, Cal doesn't have any more mysterious of a background than Angela does. Angela is barely connected to Tulsa and knew zero people when she moved there. They also probably weren't broadcasting Cal's amnesia. Why would anyone know he had a lack of history?
I had a thought about when Cal saves Angela on the White Night - maybe Calhattan "zapping" the 7K guy is what made them start thinking Cal was Dr. Manhattan? That is kind of a missing piece - how did they find out about Cal? A lack of a 7K body in Angela's house would probably make them start looking into it. Cal's amnesia and lack of history with Angela prior to their move to Tulsa would probably trigger some thoughts as they were investigating. It would explain why Judd was staying close with Angela for years to keep an eye on her and Cal (though it does seem like they had a prior friendship as coworkers) while the 7K built their tachyon laser thingy. Maybe this is obvious but I only thought of it about a day after I watched the episode.
It would be good to get some closure on Judd's role in all of this. I would like to think he had a genuine friendship with Angela and he is a more complicated character than just a 7k racist but maybe not. There is a lot to wrap up in last episode. I don't know if they will be able to land everything but I do think it will be a satisfying finale.
That's a pretty big reach. They weren't looking for him and would have no reason to suspect him being in Tulsa. Everyone thought he was on Mars. There are hundreds of possible explanations for why one of their members went missing. Why would they jump to Dr. Manhattan must be hiding in Tulsa and exploded him?
As far as Tulsa is concerned, Cal doesn't have any more mysterious of a background than Angela does. Angela is barely connected to Tulsa and knew zero people when she moved there. They also probably weren't broadcasting Cal's amnesia. Why would anyone know he had a lack of history?
I don’t think the second shooter was “exploded.” I think Cal teleported them* away.
Angela says that Cal “zapped him away.” That implies that he teleported the shooter away. We also hear the same sound effect for the shooter that they used for when Doctor Manhattan teleports the manor house to Europa, and when Calhattan teleports their children to Will. Angela uses the same word, “zapped,” to describe Manhattan teleporting the mansion to Europa. Presumably, the teleported shooter was able to return or make contact to tell the 7K. I feel like this was a loose end that should have worried Angela.
*Unrelated to this speculation, but in going over the video again, the second shooter looks like a woman. They’re wearing black eyeshadow and have a manicured, arched eyebrow. I hope it’s not Pirate Jenny.
Comments
I'm generally a Deutschian. While we can never really "prove" many worlds beyond being an apt metaphor for mostly identical universes (we'll never be able to see the universe where we all have blue skin and walk on our hands because it's far outside any entanglement horizon), I see many worlds as having the best explanatory power and thus being the best thing to "believe" in the sense of having an intuition of how things work.
Like the two slit experiment. Many worlds doesn't require an invisible guided wave in this universe. Or a wave equation being somehow physical. It's just multiple universes interfering with each other.
Or "spooky action at a distance" entanglement. Again, nothing communicating faster than the speed of light. It's just that when you entangle two particles, you close off any paths to any universes where the particles are not coordinated. So even though reading one creates a "random" result, the universe of possible "random" results is limited to the entangled outcomes. There simply aren't universes where particle A has spin +x and particle B has spin -y. There's only xx, yy and zz universes.
That explanatory power works better than "shut up and do the math" because math is arbitrary. You can be shutting up and doing the wrong math.
Deutsch has a great analogy: heliocentrism. Contrary to popular myth, the church did not have a problem with heliocentrism so long as it was just a "mathematical convenience." Of course the solar system REALLY has the Earth at the center and an elaborate set of epicycles that just makes it APPEAR that the sun is at the center. This is why Copernicus and Kepler were not arrested. Galileo's crime was saying that the universe really is what the math makes it appear to be.
Now, does many worlds qualify? Maybe not. There are more problems with it (especially with its model of probability), but accepting it as the "story behind the math" makes it easier to grok how complex quantum interactions evolve. It sets a stage.
Nothing about why Doctor Manhattan would do anything is obvious to me, since there is no precedent -- or not much precedent, only his past actions. And I find it extremely interesting, but alas.
@LordBy - Compelling point about similarities with Lori. Maybe I'd have a good explanation if I saw these events; maybe they play out with a certain je ne sais quoi. I personally always felt he got with Lori due to her proximity and her sweet young ass, because he ended up dumping older women, twice, so it seemed like an act of fucking convenience, but IDK.
@CapeGabe - Yeah, but why does he notice them in the first place? Okay, question: did he have some reason to notice Angela? Maybe that will be shown. Maybe she like, walks on water next episode at a moment when past him was paying attention to the future, and he was like "wow this woman can walk on water" and then he found her, and then he showed her how to walk on water to close the loop.
(Edit: oh sorry he's always paying attention to the future)
He's with her because he's with her.
Someone already said that earlier but it's funny dammit.
It would be good to get some closure on Judd's role in all of this. I would like to think he had a genuine friendship with Angela and he is a more complicated character than just a 7k racist but maybe not. There is a lot to wrap up in last episode. I don't know if they will be able to land everything but I do think it will be a satisfying finale.
As far as Tulsa is concerned, Cal doesn't have any more mysterious of a background than Angela does. Angela is barely connected to Tulsa and knew zero people when she moved there. They also probably weren't broadcasting Cal's amnesia. Why would anyone know he had a lack of history?
Thanks for sharing this! it was a great listen. the reference to the end of Inception played nicely with the very end of the finale!