ESPN's "The Last Dance" Documentary Series

I there are a bunch of sports fans in the BM community, so considering how anticipated this series is and how good the first 2 episodes were, I figured it might be worth making a thread for it. 

Considering how important the '97-'98 Bulls were to my childhood, I'm not sure I'm going to have a more emotional reaction to anything in pop culture this year than when I heard the intro music play in the first episode. I gotta say, even though I obviously think Krause was crazy blow up the team, I'm surprised how villainous they are making him out to be. Regardless of what happened at the end, Jerry Krause architected arguably the greatest dynasty in all of professional sports. Of course he was lucky that he had the GOAT, but building a championship team is rarely just about only accumulating talent (see my beloved Sixers this year) and Krause built the perfect dynasty around MJ. His inferiority complex just got the best of him and I feel for him there. 

Also, maybe this will change but I'm surprised at how selfish they are portraying Scottie Pippen as being. The Bulls Scottie Pippen is one of the most undervalued players in NBA history, and there is no way Reinsdorf would be able to get away with his hardline no re-negotiation stance in today's NBA. 

Anyone else watching?
Chinaskiadobo1148rkcrawfrustywright4
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Comments

  • ChinaskiChinaski Santa Cruz, CA
    i dug the first 2 episodes (the second more than the first). heck, i'd prob be done with it had they released all 10 episodes at once.

    good for Scottie for enjoying his summer. pretty sure had a pretty bad back injury before he signed that bad contract. i don't think he knew how long he'd be able to keep playing. apparently they wanted to trade him for McGrady but MJ axed it.
  • rhcooprhcoop Knoxville, Tn
    I'm very interested in watching this, but haven't had a chance yet.  

    My biggest question is how they approach MJ's sabbatical from the NBA for Southern League minor league baseball.  It's kind of an open secret as to why this happened, but I wonder if they just drift pass this or if they actually address it. 
  • rhcoop said:
    I'm very interested in watching this, but haven't had a chance yet.  

    My biggest question is how they approach MJ's sabbatical from the NBA for Southern League minor league baseball.  It's kind of an open secret as to why this happened, but I wonder if they just drift pass this or if they actually address it. 
    So I know MJ had the full rights to all of this footage and so he had final say on everything. I don't know if he wants to go into it. 
  • rhcooprhcoop Knoxville, Tn
    rhcoop said:
    I'm very interested in watching this, but haven't had a chance yet.  

    My biggest question is how they approach MJ's sabbatical from the NBA for Southern League minor league baseball.  It's kind of an open secret as to why this happened, but I wonder if they just drift pass this or if they actually address it. 
    So I know MJ had the full rights to all of this footage and so he had final say on everything. I don't know if he wants to go into it. 
    That's a hundred percent no then.  
  • MichaelGMichaelG Seattle
    rhcoop said:
    I'm very interested in watching this, but haven't had a chance yet.  

    My biggest question is how they approach MJ's sabbatical from the NBA for Southern League minor league baseball.  It's kind of an open secret as to why this happened, but I wonder if they just drift pass this or if they actually address it. 
    Are you referring to the conspiracy theory that Stern forced him to retire because of something with gambling? I’m not sure I’d call that an open secret - it’s been speculated but I don’t think anything has been reliably sourced from what I’ve seen.
    BrooklynMDGiovanniCory
  • I don't have cable/ESPN these days ... But really want to see this, will probably subscribe to Sling for a month once all the episodes are out so I can stream it.
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    Scottie was always known as Scottie no tipping Pippen. Now i actually feel sort of like maybe that was undeserved except for if he did not tip at all. but if he tipped like a normal person and not a millionaire then its unfair to him and now its clear why he didnt tip well. he had a huge family to take care of and you can tell he was very conservative. 
  • rhcooprhcoop Knoxville, Tn
    This old article for Bleacher Report lays out some more details about what I am referring to.  This is speculation, but I bet a lot of people haven't ever heard any of this stuff.  This is all second or third hand information, but there is so much smoke around this that you can't just dismiss it as a fantasy story. 

    None of this changes the fact he was/is the best player ever, but there will be questions about this for a long time. 

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/131997-mjs-1st-retirement-was-it-a-secret-suspension
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    Yea it’s got Bill Simmons support. What I find hard to believe those is him accepting it knowing how competitive his way
  • This doc clearly deserved its own thread. Kudos to whoever started it. 
  • MichaelGMichaelG Seattle
    edited April 22
    @rhcoop @Hatorian

    I'm familiar with the theory, and read the article you posted - not buying it. It's fun to theorize, but it's a conspiracy theory that is completely hearsay. You could say "This is all second or third hand information, but there is so much smoke around this that you can't just dismiss it as a fantasy story." about every conspiracy theory, that's what makes them compelling. 

    The article makes zero mention of Jordan's father being murdered the summer before his retirement. Occam's razor, coupled with no credible journalist finding compelling evidence for a forced retirement by Stern, leads me to dismiss the suspension theory as nonsense, honestly. It's actually quite dark and cynical to speculate Michael and/or Stern used his father's murder as cover for a secret suspension.

    Sure, he gambled compulsively, probably even on basketball games I imagine, but it's very unlikely Stern forced him into retirement as some sort of punishment.   This theory leads to more questions than answers and requires suspension of disbelief on many levels, like most conspiracy theories. 

    Bill Simmons is a known conspiracy theory hobby-ist - I'm not sure if push came to shove he'd bet his life that the theory is actually true, though.
    HatorianGiovanniCory
  • Completely forgot about the No Tippin Pippen thing.  I think you hit the nail on the head, it's just of matter of the details.  So, for example, if he went out to dinner and the bill was for $100 and he left no tip or like $5, then sure, that's a problem no matter who you are (at least in my opinion).  But if he was leaving $15 or $20 and people say because he's got millions he should be leaving like $30 or $40, then I think i'd agree that the nickname is not deserved.

    As for Jordan's 18 month hiatus, I think it has to be addressed one way or the other.  He may try to spin it in a way that it was really about his father being murdered that impacted him or maybe he just says that he was burnt out and needed a break from the game to regain his passion for it.  I'd be stunned though if he ever admitted to any gambling issues/concerns though.

    What I'm looking forward to is watching the "Jordan Rules" part.  Additionally, I really enjoyed listening to Magic and Bird talk about MJ as he was ascending and how they knew he was coming for them.

    Also, for Krause, he did luck into MJ.  I mean, I forget if it was him or someone else that said if they had the #1 pick, they would have taken Hakeem.  I think you give Krause credit for seeing something in Pippen that other teams didn't.  And I guess also trading Oakley.  However, if Krause was looking to deal Pippen, you'd think maybe he would try the tactic of something like "hey, we're not actively looking to trade you and we really don't want to but it's business and if someone blows us away with an offer, we at least have to think about it" and maybe that type of approach where it's face to face might have worked better.  But I think if you're Pippen and you know that your contract is a steal for the organization and how much you would be worth on the open market in addition to the club trying to trade you, I mean, I can get why he'd be pissed off and take his sweet time coming back.  Then, you throw in the Phil Jackson stuff and getting rid of him (which will trigger MJ also leaving), I mean, it seems an odd move for Krause.  It seems more of a "hey, look at me, look how smart I am" type of move as oppose to just trying to keep winning as a whole organization.

    HatorianGiovanni
  • rhcooprhcoop Knoxville, Tn
    MichaelG said:
    @rhcoop @Hatorian

    I'm familiar with the theory, and read the article you posted - not buying it. It's fun to theorize, but it's a conspiracy theory that is completely hearsay. You could say "This is all second or third hand information, but there is so much smoke around this that you can't just dismiss it as a fantasy story." about every conspiracy theory, that's what makes them compelling. 

    The article makes zero mention of Jordan's father being murdered the summer before his retirement. Occam's razor, coupled with no credible journalist finding compelling evidence for a forced retirement by Stern, leads me to dismiss the suspension theory as nonsense, honestly. It's actually quite dark and cynical to speculate Michael and/or Stern used his father's murder as cover for a secret suspension.

    Sure, he gambled compulsively, probably even on basketball games I imagine, but it's very unlikely Stern forced him into retirement as some sort of punishment.   This theory leads to more questions than answers and requires suspension of disbelief on many levels, like most conspiracy theories. 

    Bill Simmons is a known conspiracy theory hobby-ist - I'm not sure if push came to shove he'd bet his life that the theory is actually true, though.
    I would agree with you if there were not so many other theories or outright facts about the NBA being a bit shady the last 25 years. I think they would do anything to avoid a Pete Rose situation in their league.

    But I don't want to argue with you if you just think its just tin foil land. 

    MichaelG
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    Absolutely no love from the H for Pip. We hate him til we die.  I’m team MJ on that one.
    fidoz
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    i didnt see them making out Scottie out to be that bad? i thought the time they spent on why he made his decisions and providing for his family was eye opening and i have new respect for him regardless of the arguments/attitudes in a professional sports environment. 
    Giovannirkcrawf
  • Theae 2 episodes were just ok, didn’t reveal or offer insight into stuff already well known. Ok Rodman liked to party and they had to get past Detroit and............im afraid the series will just devolve into highlight porn and not cogently connect all the threads its weaving. Im guessing the next 2 will be heavy on the Knicks rivalry and Michael’s gambling vice. 
    rhcoop
  • fidozfidoz Houston
    As a Rockets fan the one thing I can't quite understand is why they decided to do a 10 part doc on the 2nd best player of that era. #Dream34
    GiovannicdriveBrooklynMD
  • https://twitter.com/thehoopcentral/status/1254613315885527041?s=21

    I don’t remember this commercial but its pure GOLD 
  • cdrivecdrive Houston, TX
    fidoz said:
    As a Rockets fan the one thing I can't quite understand is why they decided to do a 10 part doc on the 2nd best player of that era. #Dream34

  • edited April 28
    The 30 for 30 documentary on The Bad Boys REALLY took a lot of steam out of this portion of the doc. It’s a shame that it took them more than a decade to put this thing together, because it would have made for some riveting shit, but like...we just saw this a couple years ago. 
    Chinaski
  • HatorianHatorian Dagobah
    The 30 for 30 documentary on The Bad Boys REALLY took a lot of steam out of this portion of the doc. It’s a shame that it took them more than a decade to put this thing together, because it would have made for some riveting shit, but like...we just saw this a couple years ago. 
    The 30 for 30 documentary on The Bad Boys REALLY took a lot of steam out of this portion of the doc. It’s a shame that it took them more than a decade to put this thing together, because it would have made for some riveting shit, but like...we just saw this a couple years ago. 
    Haven’t watched that so it’s all good for me. 
  • The 30 for 30 documentary on The Bad Boys REALLY took a lot of steam out of this portion of the doc. It’s a shame that it took them more than a decade to put this thing together, because it would have made for some riveting shit, but like...we just saw this a couple years ago. 
    I never saw that 30 for 30 either but god damn I can't tell you how much I love IT and the Bad Boy Pistons in hindsight. 
  • edited April 29
    I think the structure of the documentary is what makes it so incredibly compelling. You spend the middle of every episode seeing this incredible dynasty the likes of which we'll never see come together and it just makes you ask even more how in the living hell could they possible have willingly broken up this team? It's just insane. The part where Krause says if Jordan leaves it's on him not me is absolutely mind-boggling
  • @rhcoop @MichaelG @Hatorian

    So apparently they are going to go in depth on Jordan's baseball interlude and why he left and why he came back along with some of the conspiracies around it according to the director of the doc. He was interviewed on the Rich Eisen Show and he says so around the 11:20 mark 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngJ4agyxerw&t=4s
    HatorianMichaelG
  • The 30 for 30 documentary on The Bad Boys REALLY took a lot of steam out of this portion of the doc. It’s a shame that it took them more than a decade to put this thing together, because it would have made for some riveting shit, but like...we just saw this a couple years ago. 
    I never saw that 30 for 30 either but god damn I can't tell you how much I love IT and the Bad Boy Pistons in hindsight. 
    They were badasses for 2 years. As soon as Jordan hit the weight room, they melted into complete bitch status and disgraced themselves for all time.
    HatorianChinaskiNoel
  • MichaelGMichaelG Seattle
    @BrooklynMD Thanks!  Love Rich and Dan Patrick. OGs
  • edited April 29
    The 30 for 30 documentary on The Bad Boys REALLY took a lot of steam out of this portion of the doc. It’s a shame that it took them more than a decade to put this thing together, because it would have made for some riveting shit, but like...we just saw this a couple years ago. 
    I never saw that 30 for 30 either but god damn I can't tell you how much I love IT and the Bad Boy Pistons in hindsight. 
    They were badasses for 2 years. As soon as Jordan hit the weight room, they melted into complete bitch status and disgraced themselves for all time.
    People complain about the Pistons being babies by not shaking hands but Jordan and the entire Bulls team is just as bad by getting so incredibly pissed off because they didn't get the positive affirmation they felt they deserved from their opponent. Leading up to this series, the Bulls players were going on and on about how the Pistons weren't just rough players, but how they were awful human beings and how they were disgraces to the game. Get over it Michael, you won and that's enough. I think they should have shook hands, but it wasn't a disgrace and IT is probably the most underrated player in basketball history because people felt he insulted the golden boy. 
  • I think the funniest part is just Jordan's reaction.  He has his opinion and nothing is ever going to change it.  You could give Jordan mind reading powers and have him go inside Isiah's head and see if he was truly being honest or not and Jordan would still not believe him.

    I enjoyed the 30 for 30 on the Bad Boys.  If I see it on, I usually flip the channel and watch it.  But probably because i'm just a fan of the 80's NBA as well and it's interesting to get a different team's perspective on things.

  • ChinaskiChinaski Santa Cruz, CA
    The 30 for 30 documentary on The Bad Boys REALLY took a lot of steam out of this portion of the doc. It’s a shame that it took them more than a decade to put this thing together, because it would have made for some riveting shit, but like...we just saw this a couple years ago. 
    that 30 for 30 is really good. so was the Rodman one. eps 3 n 4 felt like extras from them. those eps were fine. bout to jump into ep 5 and 6. hope they are better than 3 and 4.
  • ChinaskiChinaski Santa Cruz, CA
    never fully dipped into 5 and 6 till tonight. episode 5 was really good. def gonna check out 6 sooner than later.
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